Must all dispensationalists believe in cessation of miracles?
- Thread starter Guojing
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Thanks for your reply. One thing I am beginning to learn more and more is that the Jews love signs and without signs, they are very hesitant to believe. Here are some verses
Matthew 16:1-4
The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven. But He replied to them, "When it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.' "And in the morning, 'There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?
Mark 8:11-12
The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him. Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, "Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation."
Matthew 12:38-39
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;
Luke 11:29
As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah.
Luke 11:16
Others, to test Him, were demanding of Him a sign from heaven.
Luke 12:54-56
And He was also saying to the crowds, "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'A shower is coming,' and so it turns out. "And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, 'It will be a hot day,' and it turns out that way. "You hypocrites! You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time?
Luke 23:8
Now Herod was very glad when he saw Jesus; for he had wanted to see Him for a long time, because he had been hearing about Him and was hoping to see some sign performed by Him.
John 2:18
The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?"
John 4:48
So Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe."
John 6:30
So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
1 Corinthians 1:22
For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
That is a lot of passages that mentioned this!
So from this perspective, I can understand why dispensationalists tend to believe that the age of signs has passed under dispensation of Grace.
Of course, I do see and hear testimonies of healings from church every now and then, so my conclusion is, miracles still exist now but not as much as during the 4 Gospels and Acts. So I do agree with you to a large extent.
Matthew 16:1-4
The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven. But He replied to them, "When it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.' "And in the morning, 'There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?
Mark 8:11-12
The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him. Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, "Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation."
Matthew 12:38-39
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;
Luke 11:29
As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah.
Luke 11:16
Others, to test Him, were demanding of Him a sign from heaven.
Luke 12:54-56
And He was also saying to the crowds, "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'A shower is coming,' and so it turns out. "And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, 'It will be a hot day,' and it turns out that way. "You hypocrites! You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time?
Luke 23:8
Now Herod was very glad when he saw Jesus; for he had wanted to see Him for a long time, because he had been hearing about Him and was hoping to see some sign performed by Him.
John 2:18
The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?"
John 4:48
So Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe."
John 6:30
So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
1 Corinthians 1:22
For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
That is a lot of passages that mentioned this!
So from this perspective, I can understand why dispensationalists tend to believe that the age of signs has passed under dispensation of Grace.
Of course, I do see and hear testimonies of healings from church every now and then, so my conclusion is, miracles still exist now but not as much as during the 4 Gospels and Acts. So I do agree with you to a large extent.
Again you are purposely being provocative declaring me to be a idiot..
But again if what you are preaching is true and God could completely forgive David of all His sins in his life time without the need for the Atoning sacrifice of the LORD Jesus Christ.. Then why did Jesus come in the flesh and lay down His life willingly on the cross? If you are correct in your doctrine then there was No need whatsoever for Jesus to suffer death on the cross.. You and I and the rest of humanity could be treated by God as you declare God treated David.. He could simply forgive us of all our sins we have ever commited in our lives without any need for the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ as you believe he did for David..
You really need to stop throwing about the denigration of calling others stupid and idiots...
Disagree with me if you will.. So be it.. But don't be so quick to denigrate others for their views which they can support with logical arguments..
But again if what you are preaching is true and God could completely forgive David of all His sins in his life time without the need for the Atoning sacrifice of the LORD Jesus Christ.. Then why did Jesus come in the flesh and lay down His life willingly on the cross? If you are correct in your doctrine then there was No need whatsoever for Jesus to suffer death on the cross.. You and I and the rest of humanity could be treated by God as you declare God treated David.. He could simply forgive us of all our sins we have ever commited in our lives without any need for the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ as you believe he did for David..
You really need to stop throwing about the denigration of calling others stupid and idiots...
Disagree with me if you will.. So be it.. But don't be so quick to denigrate others for their views which they can support with logical arguments..
Well the message was supposed to be given to the Jews first then the gentiles.. So if you are talking about when salvation first came to the gentiles then that is different to the day of Pentecost.. That was when Peter was given the dream about consuming unclean animals and was told by God not to call unclean what He had made clean.. Peter when to that home of the gentile family of Cornelius and preached to them and they received the Holy Spirit.. So at the moment the first gentile received the baptism of the Holy Spirit the age of grace had arrived for the gentiles..
It has been a while since i have read the account so i just looked it up again to make sure i got it right: So this is when salvation first came to the gentiles..
Acts 10: KJV
9 "¶ On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: {10} And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, {11} And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: {12} Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. {13} And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. {14} But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. {15} And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. {16} This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. {17} Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon’s house, and stood before the gate, {18} And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there. {19} ¶ While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. {20} Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them. {21} Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come? {22} And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee."
It has been a while since i have read the account so i just looked it up again to make sure i got it right: So this is when salvation first came to the gentiles..
Acts 10: KJV
9 "¶ On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: {10} And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, {11} And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: {12} Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. {13} And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. {14} But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. {15} And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. {16} This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. {17} Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon’s house, and stood before the gate, {18} And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there. {19} ¶ While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. {20} Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them. {21} Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come? {22} And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee."
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I'd be curious to know what those miracles were.
I have a pentecostal friend who is adamant he's seen many 'amazing' miracles as well, but I remain very skeptical. I went to one of his church meetings one time and they had their 'healing' moment and the leader was asking for anyone to come forward. Saying 'i feel there is someone here with a bad leg, ..or maybe a thigh, ..anyone?' almost pleading for a volunteer to front up and 'be healed'. I don't remember if he got anyone for that, but I think there was one or two complaining of the usual 'headache' or 'bad back'. And of course we've all seen those television ministries with their healing line up, again bad backs and headaches abound and afterward they seem to 'feel better'; but it all seems a bit of a crock to me. Sometimes I think the leaders genuinely believe they are helping, and are themselves partially being duped by 'helpful' congregation, and sometimes i think the leaders are straight out charlatans and taking advantage of people's desperation. In all, I have never seen anything convincing.
I also have a number of friends who grew up in pentecostal churches and who had genuine health problems (including cancer, deafness, and other chronic diseases) and have been to countless 'healing' sessions, and praying and believing as hard as they can, but to no avail. The leaders have been angry at them for making them look bad (in essence pressuring them to claim success), and they have been accused of 'not having enough faith' - typically being quoted James 5.14-15 which says 'is anyone of you sick? he should call the elders of the church to pray over him .. and the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well'. But a careful read you can see it is the faith of the elder making the prayer, not the faith of the sick person. And it says it WILL heal them. I don't see this certainty today at all. Today is much like the later epistles, where we see recovery rather than instant change.
And it is these very experiences (as well as discovering other inconsistencies) which started my friends on the dispensational path (and they have never looked back).
Now, I can never say for certain whether what we have today are genuine miracles or not (I don't doubt miracles can occur at any time throughout history), but sticking to the bible there are clear differences between before/after end-Acts. So I remain stubbornly skeptical.
I saw an article some years back on someone who did some follow up on supposed miracle cures, and these were only the short list that the ministries selected as their top picks. The investigator followed up with each of them (there was around 10 or so, from memory), and the result was NONE of them were genuinely healed. One who was 'healed' from cancer died within a year or two, others who had some other ailments continued to need their medication, and so on. In the end, it seems they probably just went along with it because of the pressure, and maybe they even felt pretty pumped at the time, but all up they would have left disappointed.
I feel terrible that I'm so cynical about it, but to me I'm just not convinced. And because I believe it is not scriptural, I will take some convincing. I want to see just one that I can say 'well, that one's not faking it'.
I have a pentecostal friend who is adamant he's seen many 'amazing' miracles as well, but I remain very skeptical. I went to one of his church meetings one time and they had their 'healing' moment and the leader was asking for anyone to come forward. Saying 'i feel there is someone here with a bad leg, ..or maybe a thigh, ..anyone?' almost pleading for a volunteer to front up and 'be healed'. I don't remember if he got anyone for that, but I think there was one or two complaining of the usual 'headache' or 'bad back'. And of course we've all seen those television ministries with their healing line up, again bad backs and headaches abound and afterward they seem to 'feel better'; but it all seems a bit of a crock to me. Sometimes I think the leaders genuinely believe they are helping, and are themselves partially being duped by 'helpful' congregation, and sometimes i think the leaders are straight out charlatans and taking advantage of people's desperation. In all, I have never seen anything convincing.
I also have a number of friends who grew up in pentecostal churches and who had genuine health problems (including cancer, deafness, and other chronic diseases) and have been to countless 'healing' sessions, and praying and believing as hard as they can, but to no avail. The leaders have been angry at them for making them look bad (in essence pressuring them to claim success), and they have been accused of 'not having enough faith' - typically being quoted James 5.14-15 which says 'is anyone of you sick? he should call the elders of the church to pray over him .. and the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well'. But a careful read you can see it is the faith of the elder making the prayer, not the faith of the sick person. And it says it WILL heal them. I don't see this certainty today at all. Today is much like the later epistles, where we see recovery rather than instant change.
And it is these very experiences (as well as discovering other inconsistencies) which started my friends on the dispensational path (and they have never looked back).
Now, I can never say for certain whether what we have today are genuine miracles or not (I don't doubt miracles can occur at any time throughout history), but sticking to the bible there are clear differences between before/after end-Acts. So I remain stubbornly skeptical.
I saw an article some years back on someone who did some follow up on supposed miracle cures, and these were only the short list that the ministries selected as their top picks. The investigator followed up with each of them (there was around 10 or so, from memory), and the result was NONE of them were genuinely healed. One who was 'healed' from cancer died within a year or two, others who had some other ailments continued to need their medication, and so on. In the end, it seems they probably just went along with it because of the pressure, and maybe they even felt pretty pumped at the time, but all up they would have left disappointed.
I feel terrible that I'm so cynical about it, but to me I'm just not convinced. And because I believe it is not scriptural, I will take some convincing. I want to see just one that I can say 'well, that one's not faking it'.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
We need a starting place.
As is needing a savior is man's starting place in salvation,so it is with healing.
If you doubt at your starting place , most likely you wont see purpose or need.
IOW, if i feel in do not need saving,or peace,or enen inspiration to follow the king,why would i make any steps that way.
Likewise,with healing,i need to be clear if it is Gods will,and if it is, and he has us as his extended body, 90% of healing in the nt does not involve prayer.
Yet in modern times,that has become the sole method.
I'm Not saying don't pray for healing,I'm saying it will work sometimes,and then the other methods are skipped.
But even worse faith becomes a bad guy to be avoided at all costs.
So,it is no wonder scarecly few are healed
As is needing a savior is man's starting place in salvation,so it is with healing.
If you doubt at your starting place , most likely you wont see purpose or need.
IOW, if i feel in do not need saving,or peace,or enen inspiration to follow the king,why would i make any steps that way.
Likewise,with healing,i need to be clear if it is Gods will,and if it is, and he has us as his extended body, 90% of healing in the nt does not involve prayer.
Yet in modern times,that has become the sole method.
I'm Not saying don't pray for healing,I'm saying it will work sometimes,and then the other methods are skipped.
But even worse faith becomes a bad guy to be avoided at all costs.
So,it is no wonder scarecly few are healed
God bless you brother. Perhaps I should first say that I talk to God about everything, not just the 'big' things.
When I get sick and feel like I might go to sleep and not get up in the morning. I have peace and assurance that either way is ok. I know my body is probably not going to suddenly begin to get younger. It is for this reason that I consider good days as "little" miracles in themselves. They might seem little to many, but not to me.
Luke 17
17:15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
17:16 And fell down on [his] face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where [are] the nine?
17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
When I get sick and feel like I might go to sleep and not get up in the morning. I have peace and assurance that either way is ok. I know my body is probably not going to suddenly begin to get younger. It is for this reason that I consider good days as "little" miracles in themselves. They might seem little to many, but not to me.
Luke 17
17:15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
17:16 And fell down on [his] face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where [are] the nine?
17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
I agree with you, that is why I am a mid Acts dispensationalist, are you one too? I believe the new dispensation of Grace for the Gentile church began after Stephen was stoned.
Although the new Covenant of Grace technically began after Jesus shed his blood at Calvary, God gave the Jews a second chance to collectively accept Jesus after Jesus said on the cross "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"
But once they stoned Stephen, who was full of the Holy Spirit, they have blasphemed against the HS and God put them aside to usher in the new dispensation of Grace for the Gentiles, we benefited tremendously due to the Jews rejecting their Gospel of the Kingdom.
Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Although the new Covenant of Grace technically began after Jesus shed his blood at Calvary, God gave the Jews a second chance to collectively accept Jesus after Jesus said on the cross "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"
But once they stoned Stephen, who was full of the Holy Spirit, they have blasphemed against the HS and God put them aside to usher in the new dispensation of Grace for the Gentiles, we benefited tremendously due to the Jews rejecting their Gospel of the Kingdom.
Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Well the Jews did not stumble in full... On the day of Pentecost 3000 of them repented of their act of crucifying Jesus and became Christians... And down through out the centuries Jews from time to time have become followers of the Messiah Jesus... So not all the Jews fell.. Most did sadly.. But not all..
Acts 2: KJV
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. {37} ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? {38} Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. {39} For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. {40} And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. {41} ¶ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."
Obviously more then a few of these men took part in the crucifixion of Jesus.. The will of Jesus came true.. when He said forgive them for they do not know what they do..
Acts 2: KJV
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. {37} ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? {38} Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. {39} For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. {40} And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. {41} ¶ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."
Obviously more then a few of these men took part in the crucifixion of Jesus.. The will of Jesus came true.. when He said forgive them for they do not know what they do..
