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Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14
- Thread starter KelbyofGod
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lolhaha
here are several from which to choose
here is the 'are you for real?' look of 'can you breathe on your own?'
and of course the famous Judge Judy face palm accompanied by words of disbelief
here's a cutie for when you are having your coffee and reflecting on the total lack of biblical ability to support the tongues has ceased opinion
here is the dismissive not even worth responding to hs
here is the 'you scary and speak blasphemies' look reserved for those about to be banned or shunned
and finally, when you want to make sure they understand they are not speaking anything from the Bible, God or the Holy Spirit
just copy/paste
reserved for those who are not cessationists
unauthorized use indicates plagerism, much like certain people posting ideas that are not their own and taking credit anyway
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
what do you consider the doctrine of tongues?
what does the sign of a dove descending on Jesus after His baptism confirm?
what does Peter being filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues and seeing 3000 plus souls come to Christ at one time confirm?
what does the Revelation of John confirm?
what does Paul mean by do not forbid speaking in tongues?
what does cherry pick and mashup confirm?
so many questions
Garee,
I read again, and will post here, at least the main verses that you referred to earlier.
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
It is recommended that anyone reading this also read the verses around 11&12 if for no other reason than re-familiarization. It is good to read the word of God pretty much any time it's mentioned.
I can see where you draw the conclusion that the people about which he is speaking are rebellious....especially where it concludes with "yet they would not hear". And it kinda makes sense that you reach the conclusion you reached.
What I would ask is that you consider a different viewpoint. (And compare it with what happens in Acts 2 to see if it fits).
Notice in Isaiah 28:11 WHO God said would be speaking?
And please consider what it means in 28:11 if God was speaking IN one person/group but TO a different person or group.
It would mean that the people speaking might not be the rebellious: they might actually be the obedient, because these verses happen during a portion of the chapter where he is trying to get the rebellious to see that there are people doing things in a different way than their own.
One point I'm making is that Isaiah 28 is not ONLY talking about rebellious people. (see verse 9 for example)
And the one supposition I hope you will consider is that perhaps it's not the rebellious who are speaking with stammering lips, but rather the obedient. And the rebellious happen to be the observers.
This would be supported by the Acts account(s).
In Acts, it wasn't the rebellious but rather the obedient who were speaking in tongues.
Also, in Acts 2 there is a clear declaration by Peter that "Hey guys, these guys aren't speaking this way because they're drunk(rebellious), they are speaking by (and exhibiting) the REST that was promised. And yet even when some see this miraculous thing occurring, and are told that THIS IS the rest/promise, they still rebel and kick against it.
Not only would this be consistent with the days and record of Acts, it has also been the case in current times.
= because people chose/choose to rebel against what God freely offers
= because God is faithful and told us in Isaiah that it would be this way
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I read again, and will post here, at least the main verses that you referred to earlier.
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
It is recommended that anyone reading this also read the verses around 11&12 if for no other reason than re-familiarization. It is good to read the word of God pretty much any time it's mentioned.
I can see where you draw the conclusion that the people about which he is speaking are rebellious....especially where it concludes with "yet they would not hear". And it kinda makes sense that you reach the conclusion you reached.
What I would ask is that you consider a different viewpoint. (And compare it with what happens in Acts 2 to see if it fits).
Notice in Isaiah 28:11 WHO God said would be speaking?
And please consider what it means in 28:11 if God was speaking IN one person/group but TO a different person or group.
It would mean that the people speaking might not be the rebellious: they might actually be the obedient, because these verses happen during a portion of the chapter where he is trying to get the rebellious to see that there are people doing things in a different way than their own.
One point I'm making is that Isaiah 28 is not ONLY talking about rebellious people. (see verse 9 for example)
And the one supposition I hope you will consider is that perhaps it's not the rebellious who are speaking with stammering lips, but rather the obedient. And the rebellious happen to be the observers.
This would be supported by the Acts account(s).
In Acts, it wasn't the rebellious but rather the obedient who were speaking in tongues.
Also, in Acts 2 there is a clear declaration by Peter that "Hey guys, these guys aren't speaking this way because they're drunk(rebellious), they are speaking by (and exhibiting) the REST that was promised. And yet even when some see this miraculous thing occurring, and are told that THIS IS the rest/promise, they still rebel and kick against it.
Not only would this be consistent with the days and record of Acts, it has also been the case in current times.
= because people chose/choose to rebel against what God freely offers = because God is faithful and told us in Isaiah that it would be this wayLove in Jesus,
Kelby
Isaiah was warning Israel of the impending captivity. Warning Israel that they were going to be given into the hands of the Assyrian by God for judgment. The context makes clear the intended interpretation of the passage and produces the correct application. This is why tongues were chosen by God in the NT to speak to Israel. Another reference would be to the tower of Babel where God confused the languages in judgment of Nimrod and the people.Garee,
I read again, and will post here, at least the main verses that you referred to earlier.
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
It is recommended that anyone reading this also read the verses around 11&12 if for no other reason than re-familiarization. It is good to read the word of God pretty much any time it's mentioned.
I can see where you draw the conclusion that the people about which he is speaking are rebellious....especially where it concludes with "yet they would not hear". And it kinda makes sense that you reach the conclusion you reached.
What I would ask is that you consider a different viewpoint. (And compare it with what happens in Acts 2 to see if it fits).
Notice in Isaiah 28:11 WHO God said would be speaking?
And please consider what it means in 28:11 if God was speaking IN one person/group but TO a different person or group.
It would mean that the people speaking might not be the rebellious: they might actually be the obedient, because these verses happen during a portion of the chapter where he is trying to get the rebellious to see that there are people doing things in a different way than their own.
One point I'm making is that Isaiah 28 is not ONLY talking about rebellious people. (see verse 9 for example)
And the one supposition I hope you will consider is that perhaps it's not the rebellious who are speaking with stammering lips, but rather the obedient. And the rebellious happen to be the observers.
This would be supported by the Acts account(s).
In Acts, it wasn't the rebellious but rather the obedient who were speaking in tongues.
Also, in Acts 2 there is a clear declaration by Peter that "Hey guys, these guys aren't speaking this way because they're drunk(rebellious), they are speaking by (and exhibiting) the REST that was promised. And yet even when some see this miraculous thing occurring, and are told that THIS IS the rest/promise, they still rebel and kick against it.
Not only would this be consistent with the days and record of Acts, it has also been the case in current times.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I don't see how this applies to Acts 19, where the believers upon receiving the holy Ghost began to speak in tongues.
Please explain.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Witness by God to the Jews who had not yet received Jesus as the promised Messiah. God was judging Israel for rejecting Jesus as the Messiah God promised to them first. The Gentiles were being saved and Israel was being passed over being denied the blessing of forgiveness of their sins by grace through Christ. Really not all that difficult.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
"1st. I know people speakin tongues (question what is the source of it)
2nd. I am not sarcastic.
3rd. Nowhere taught that speaking in tongues is sign of been baptised with the Holy Spirit
4th Not all christians in Pauls time got this gift independ they had faith ore not." -WW
It's ok to not understand everything perfectly. None of us do. God does not expect us to. Just remain open to Him and whatever He might want to give to you. God bless.
2nd. I am not sarcastic.
3rd. Nowhere taught that speaking in tongues is sign of been baptised with the Holy Spirit
4th Not all christians in Pauls time got this gift independ they had faith ore not." -WW
It's ok to not understand everything perfectly. None of us do. God does not expect us to. Just remain open to Him and whatever He might want to give to you. God bless.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Hey what happened, a blank post..."Cat get your tongue?"
LOL.... English idiom translation....
Typically means, someone at a loss for words.
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
[QUOTE="wolfwint, post: 3910873,
1st. I know people speakin tongues (question what is the source of it)
2nd. I am not sarcastic.
3rd. Nowhere taught that speaking in tongues is sign of been baptised with the Holy Spirit
4th Not all christians in Pauls time got this gift independ they had faith ore not.
][/QUOTE]
in defense of yourself that is what you do
you defend yourself
you excuse English not being your mother tongue when you get called on your sarcasm and retreat into 'poor little me'
if your Bible does not contain the fact that people spoke in tongues AFTER receiving the infilling of the Holy Spirit then you have a bogus translation of some sort
you have no clue how many did or didn't speak in tongues because Paul only states all will not
then, he goes on to say that it should not be forbidden
you post in every thread on tongues and then try to say it's all new to you etc etc etc
the level of disingenuous posts by you is embarrassing
in every thread you state there is no such thing and then you enter another thread and pretend you are just trying to learn
I've certainly learned something about you
but you do forbid in your own life so go ahead
but you cannot have any effect on those who obey scripture
1st. I know people speakin tongues (question what is the source of it)
2nd. I am not sarcastic.
3rd. Nowhere taught that speaking in tongues is sign of been baptised with the Holy Spirit
4th Not all christians in Pauls time got this gift independ they had faith ore not.
][/QUOTE]
in defense of yourself that is what you do
you defend yourself
you excuse English not being your mother tongue when you get called on your sarcasm and retreat into 'poor little me'
if your Bible does not contain the fact that people spoke in tongues AFTER receiving the infilling of the Holy Spirit then you have a bogus translation of some sort
you have no clue how many did or didn't speak in tongues because Paul only states all will not
then, he goes on to say that it should not be forbidden
you post in every thread on tongues and then try to say it's all new to you etc etc etc
the level of disingenuous posts by you is embarrassing
in every thread you state there is no such thing and then you enter another thread and pretend you are just trying to learn
I've certainly learned something about you
but you do forbid in your own life so go ahead
but you cannot have any effect on those who obey scripture
in defense of yourself that is what you do
you defend yourself
you excuse English not being your mother tongue when you get called on your sarcasm and retreat into 'poor little me'
if your Bible does not contain the fact that people spoke in tongues AFTER receiving the infilling of the Holy Spirit then you have a bogus translation of some sort
you have no clue how many did or didn't speak in tongues because Paul only states all will not
then, he goes on to say that it should not be forbidden
you post in every thread on tongues and then try to say it's all new to you etc etc etc
the level of disingenuous posts by you is embarrassing
in every thread you state there is no such thing and then you enter another thread and pretend you are just trying to learn
I've certainly learned something about you
but you do forbid in your own life so go ahead
but you cannot have any effect on those who obey scripture[/QUOTE]
Well, i did not deny that people got the speaking in tongues after receiving the Holy Spirit. This is only in acts.
What I said is that nowhere in the bible this is taught!
You interprete the acts events, that it is taught. But the acts events in 2, 10 and 19 can be interpretet without to conclude that speaking in tongues is a sign to be baptised with the Holy Spirit, if you take tje text simply read as it is written.
And I said however it ends in the church. Because also the churchfathers did not speak in tongues.
The beginning to teach that speaking in tongues is a sign to got baptised with the Holy Spirit found in Topeka and Azusa in the beginning of the 20th century.
If you can show me where it was teached and practised before, please go ahead. ( out of cults)
O
obedienttogod
Guest
From the Disciple of John (who wrote Revelations): And PROOF Revelations was written AFTER 70 A.D. because John's Disciple was born in 70 A.D. and not able to be John's Disciple in 70 A.D.
GENTILE POLYCARP DISCIPLE OF THE APOSTLE JOHN (A.D. 70-155), who was himself a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote: "in like manner do we also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms 'spiritual', they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit".
But this Disciple of John ^ proves they were still speaking in Tongues after the Apostles were gone and claims it matched the same as the Apostle did when they Spoke in Tongues!!
Evidence of Tongues and Spiritual Gifts of the Gentiles No Jews involved:
90 A.D.
Clement of Rome (died 100?) reminded the Corinthians that "a full outpouring of the Holy Spirit was upon you all." (Clement of Rome, First Epistle to the Corinthians, 2, ANF, I, 5
107 A.D.
I have an entire list from 90 A.D. - 250 A.D. of those we consider church fathers. Even the COUNCIL who put our Canon together Spoke in Tongues.
The BIBLE you read, was assembled by TONGUE SPEAKERS in the 4th Century!!
GENTILE POLYCARP DISCIPLE OF THE APOSTLE JOHN (A.D. 70-155), who was himself a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote: "in like manner do we also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms 'spiritual', they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit".
But this Disciple of John ^ proves they were still speaking in Tongues after the Apostles were gone and claims it matched the same as the Apostle did when they Spoke in Tongues!!
Evidence of Tongues and Spiritual Gifts of the Gentiles No Jews involved:
90 A.D.
Clement of Rome (died 100?) reminded the Corinthians that "a full outpouring of the Holy Spirit was upon you all." (Clement of Rome, First Epistle to the Corinthians, 2, ANF, I, 5
107 A.D.
- Ignatius wrote to the church at Smyrna: "Ignatius... to the Church of God the Father, and of the beloved Jesus Christ, which has through mercy obtained every kind of gift, which is filled with faith and love, and is deficient in no gift, most worthy of God, and adorned with holiness... Be ye strong, I pray, in the power of the Holy Ghost." (Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, superscription & 12, ANF I, 86 & 92.)
- GENTILE POLYCARP DISCIPLE OF THE APOSTLE JOHN (A.D. 70-155), who was himself a disciple of the Apostle John[/b], wrote: "in like manner do we also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms 'spiritual', they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit".
- Justin Martyr wrote, "For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time... Now it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God." (Justin, Dialogue with Trypho, 82 & 88, ANF, I, 240 & 243)
- Irenaeus "[T]he perfect man consists in the commingling and the union of the soul receiving the spirit of the Father... For this reason does the apostle declare, 'We speak wisdom among them that are perfect,' terming those persons 'perfect' who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used [h]imself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages... whom also the apostle terms 'spiritual,' they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.6.1, ANF, I, 531.)
I have an entire list from 90 A.D. - 250 A.D. of those we consider church fathers. Even the COUNCIL who put our Canon together Spoke in Tongues.
The BIBLE you read, was assembled by TONGUE SPEAKERS in the 4th Century!!
And who of them taught that speaking in tongues is the proof that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit?From the Disciple of John (who wrote Revelations): And PROOF Revelations was written AFTER 70 A.D. because John's Disciple was born in 70 A.D. and not able to be John's Disciple in 70 A.D.
GENTILE POLYCARP DISCIPLE OF THE APOSTLE JOHN (A.D. 70-155), who was himself a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote: "in like manner do we also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms 'spiritual', they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit".
But this Disciple of John ^ proves they were still speaking in Tongues after the Apostles were gone and claims it matched the same as the Apostle did when they Spoke in Tongues!!
Evidence of Tongues and Spiritual Gifts of the Gentiles No Jews involved:
90 A.D.
Clement of Rome (died 100?) reminded the Corinthians that "a full outpouring of the Holy Spirit was upon you all." (Clement of Rome, First Epistle to the Corinthians, 2, ANF, I, 5
107 A.D.
110 A.D
- Ignatius wrote to the church at Smyrna: "Ignatius... to the Church of God the Father, and of the beloved Jesus Christ, which has through mercy obtained every kind of gift, which is filled with faith and love, and is deficient in no gift, most worthy of God, and adorned with holiness... Be ye strong, I pray, in the power of the Holy Ghost." (Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, superscription & 12, ANF I, 86 & 92.)
- GENTILE POLYCARP DISCIPLE OF THE APOSTLE JOHN (A.D. 70-155), who was himself a disciple of the Apostle John[/b], wrote: "in like manner do we also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms 'spiritual', they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit".
120 - 205 A.D.
- Justin Martyr wrote, "For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time... Now it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God." (Justin, Dialogue with Trypho, 82 & 88, ANF, I, 240 & 243)
- Irenaeus "[T]he perfect man consists in the commingling and the union of the soul receiving the spirit of the Father... For this reason does the apostle declare, 'We speak wisdom among them that are perfect,' terming those persons 'perfect' who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used [h]imself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages... whom also the apostle terms 'spiritual,' they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.6.1, ANF, I, 531.)
I have an entire list from 90 A.D. - 250 A.D. of those we consider church fathers. Even the COUNCIL who put our Canon together Spoke in Tongues.
The BIBLE you read, was assembled by TONGUE SPEAKERS in the 4th Century!!
And whom of the mentioned Man had the gift to speak in tongues? The quotet text seem to speak from others, but not from themselfes.
That these gifts were there till a certain time is clear for me. But they seems not generell in all churches.
O
obedienttogod
Guest
All excellent questions, brother. None of these are claiming you have to Speak in Tongues, these are men who thought it was best to write down was what happening in their own lifetimes, that related to what we read in the Holy Bible. They were observers, the one was a Disciple of the Beloved John (so this man Polycarp had first hand knowledge that Speaking in Tongues was supposed to continue and John taught him that) who wrote the Gospel of John, John I-II-III, Revelations.
These are men after the Apostles who were known as our Church fathers. And these men had first hand knowledge that Tongues had not Ceased, but was still going strong. And they taught about it and even experienced it themselves. But not a single one ever made the claim, you must Speak in Tongues after receiving the Holy Spirit. It's not a requirement, but anyone blessed with this beautiful Gift needs to embrace it and use it wisely according to scripture.
In the today teachings from pentecostals ore charismatics I hear always that speaking in tongues is a proof that you baptised with the Holy Spirit.
I would agree and they I suppose, too that this is an important teaching for the life of a christian.
But why then nobody is taught this, even not the man of God which you mentioned.
Also what we find is that those witnesses like from the disciples of the Apostle John get fade, after around 400 ad. ( from around 160 - 6.th century the montanists exist as big movement and claimed to have this gifts, too, but was a cult with much false teachings and false prophetie)
This reasons above hinders me to believe this doctrines.
That God can use this gift of speaking in tongues also today in mission conditions I have no doubt. He has many wunderbar ways to reach people.
O
obedienttogod
Guest
I agree!!
I know many people, family members, who I believe they are saved (I don't know their hidden secrets, but I assume they have surrendered them to God like all of us must) and they have never spoken in Tongues and are ALL members of Pentecostal churches.
What cracks me up about the Pentecostals, the ONENESS Pentecostal claim IT IS NOT A REQUIREMENT to be saved (speaking in Tongues), but the TRINITY Pentecostals (Assemblies of God - Church of God - several others) claim IT IS A REQUIREMENT to be saved.
I am the Pentecostal that believes the Name of Yeshua represents (Father - Son - Holy Spirit) = Yeshua means Yahweh's (Father) Salvation, Yeshua is the Son, and the Holy Spirit was given to us in the Name of Yeshua. So Yeshua is tied to the Father - Son - Holy Spirit. I think this is why we see the Apostles Baptize in Name of Yeshua ONLY, because Yeshua represented Matthew 28:19 (Father - Son - Holy Spirit)...and I also believe that Speaking in Tongues IS NOT a requirement to be saved!!
It is intéresting, i heard the opposit: oneness pentecostals say it is a requirement to be saved. And the others says it is not. In the time when I became a christian I met some from church of God.
O
obedienttogod
Guest
Yes, it is interesting. There was a thread not long ago about the Assemblies of God, a Trinity Pentecostal church. On their website they list: Tongues is evidence and proof you are actually saved. So yes, this argument over 1 vs 3 is ridiculous to the point people get the wrong idea about who believes what.
1)The doctrine of tongues is God's interpretation of whatever it is in view . Also why he has established it and what does the sign confirm? It would be a sign you understand the foundation of the doctrine.
Will you look to the foundation found in Isaiah 28 as to what it informs us ?
2)The dove represents the peace of Father and Son working together in perfect harmony to one another as the peace that surpasses our understanding.
3)Signs that follow. Not the kind the sign gift seekers seek after to confirm something ...Not knowing what it is that they are confirming .
What is it they are confirming?
Those who do believe God's prophecy through the manner of tongues like those 3000 plus souls (they were not seeking to confirm anything they showed the kind of sign not seen that follow. They will drink the poison of false prophecy and not be harmed. or they will be interested in sharing the gospel in, the language of God as it is written as a new tongue never before offering the gospel the same signs that followed after in Mark 16. they all represent the same thing God has spoken .
4) The Revelation of John confirms God has spoken.
5) Some people were forbidding the apostles bringing new prophecy after the manner of tongues. This is before we hade the perfect. Today God is not longer bring new prophecy after any manner to include tongues. Some who do walk by sight still desire to put on a show a sign to help them comfirm something.
6 ) Because there is no cherry picking with the word of God those who make a mockery of the word of God complain with deriding lips or stammering lip. For precept must be upon precept, comparing the spiritual unseen to the same (faith to faith) precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: The spiritual must be compared to the spiritual understanding. Yet for all that they still where the badge of unbelief as a sign proudly . No faith in God.
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. Isaiah 28:9-12
The sign of not hearing.
What do you say the sign confirms?