Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?

[FollowHisSteps]

this is why I hammer this at you so hard- if you do not properly recognize sin, then you will have unconfessed sin on your account.
it is so vitally important to see things how God sees things, and not let our human thinking and reasoning get in between .
recognize the Biblical definition of sin, put yourself under the authority of Scripture, instead of giving yourself authority over Scripture to make it say what you want.

You have just said nothing. You cannot know what sin is. But then if I reverse engineer your belief
system, I have your answer.

All sin is forgiven, past, present and future for the whole of mankind. So actual sin is irrelevant, and you
do not confess or repent of it, and desire to change your ways and walk in the ways of God.

The only sin that remains is belief in Jesus. Either you believe in Him for salvation or you do not.
If you do not you are doomed to hell, lake of fire.

So if you say I do not believe in Jesus, you are wrong also. So what have you left if the above is true.
Nothing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

this is why I hammer this at you so hard- if you do not properly recognize sin, then you will have unconfessed sin on your account.

it is so vitally important to see things how God sees things, and not let our human thinking and reasoning get in between .

recognize the Biblical definition of sin, put yourself under the authority of Scripture, instead of giving yourself authority over Scripture to make it say what you want.

Hey bro..

Just asking, God says to confess your sins, not only to him, But to others. Do you do this?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

this is why I hammer this at you so hard- if you do not properly recognize sin, then you will have unconfessed sin on your account.

it is so vitally important to see things how God sees things, and not let our human thinking and reasoning get in between .

recognize the Biblical definition of sin, put yourself under the authority of Scripture, instead of giving yourself authority over Scripture to make it say what you want.

Hammer me so hard A wet sponge if that, as it contains nothing
I suppose if you have a hard heart, and nothing really matters except facts as
you have put it in the past, we will never meet, because a hard heart cannot
perceive what I say and share or even be moved.

18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God
because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so
as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
Eph 4

The above describes exactly the problem with sinful behaviour and its slavery

 

[gb9]

Hey bro..

Just asking, God says to confess your sins, not only to him, But to others. Do you do this?

honest answer- I do, but not as well as I should.

my pastor told about his recent attending of an AA meeting, saying that it amazed him how these people just stood up and confessed all kinds of stuff, a lot of which most of us ( who are not addicted ) would not do.

his point was- that was demonstrating how to confess to one another. ( which is hard).

 

[crossnote]

I believe the question is flawed from the get go, and completely approaches a spiritual truth from a fleshly perspective. When you start asking "how much" you've already missed the boat. "How much", is a question of measure and that's not what being reborn is, at all. See a lost soul can go and do measurable good deeds, and still hate God openly. While a less capable believer may not even have the means to do many works at all, yet spends every waking breath longing to do so and taking every opportunity to do so. God can not be put into a vial, or mathematical formula. God transcends these things, and that is why He tells us that the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, because these things are only learned by direct revelation (as in a message, or "good news" if you will) because they can not be learned in the flesh (or by "law"). This is why I have such a problem (as in clash of ideas, not like a problem with them personally) with people when I say that works are the evidence of ones salvation, and their first comeback is this, "well how many works keep you saved?, and what about non-Christians that do good things, are they saved?". These things are coming so far away from what I'm trying to say that it's hard sometimes to understand where my communication is breaking down.

When I say that "as a result of" salvation. This means AFTER God gifted me with salvation that I not only didn't deserve, but actually deserved the "exact opposite of", this means that by Gods grace and no work at all. Was dead in my sin and completely incapable of doing ANYTHING at all pleasing to God, and He saved me. Okay salvation, praise Jesus mighty name, I'm forgiven and set free. Okay we all agree with this, ya-hoo, now this is what I'm talking about. Now because I was saved I am empowered to glorify the God that gave us everything, and to actually have the ability to please our Father. Now as a result of the free gift of salvation I will be changed, to what degree, how, and in what way is a personal thing and you're now on a walk with our Creator through His Son Jesus Christ. And my life is a testament of His power, and I will boldly proclaim this power. If you are in Christ you WILL produce fruit, it's impossible not to, and I actually hear Christians on this site make the literal case "you can be a Christian and do nothing for God", and I mean this, it it their argument and it blows my mind why in the world they want to paint our King in such a weak, powerless, pointless, and most of all hypothetical way.

I try to qualify this every time I talk about it that on paper what they say is not wrong, technically. I just feel lead to speak of the power of Jesus Christ to take us wicked fallen people and transform us into new creatures that can actually glorify our King. This is not a matter of worldly measurement, but your very nature transformed by the birth of your spirit and it's reconciliation to your Creator. These truths can not be spoken of in a "how much does it take" kind of way. In my opinion.

Thanks, you caught the central motive of the reason I asked the question in the first place.

 

[gb9]

Hammer me so hard A wet sponge if that, as it contains nothing
I suppose if you have a hard heart, and nothing really matters except facts as
you have put it in the past, we will never meet, because a hard heart cannot
perceive what I say and share or even be moved.

18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God
because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so
as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
Eph 4

The above describes exactly the problem with sinful behaviour and its slavery

facts do matter more than feelings and emotions. feelings and emotions are fluid and change like the wind.

facts are stable. they do not change . that is why facts should be used as the standards of sin and righteousness, not feelings.

your " I do not sin because I really, strongly , feel like I did not " is something I want no part of, I choose not to live in self-deceit to satisfy my flesh.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

honest answer- I do, but not as well as I should.

my pastor told about his recent attending of an AA meeting, saying that it amazed him how these people just stood up and confessed all kinds of stuff, a lot of which most of us ( who are not addicted ) would not do.

his point was- that was demonstrating how to confess to one another. ( which is hard).

Thank you bro

Once again you. Proved ole Petey to be a liar!

 

[Guojing]

i am beginning to see why dispensationalism could be the best idea ever. you were quoting mostly just leviticus and numbers there. under the law its new covenant now.

how could we ever confess each and every sin? it would take forever and we dont even remember all sins we have done

Yep, reading his stance made me appreciate Hebrews 10 more, about the difference between the covenant of Law and Grace

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

 

[crossnote]

i am beginning to see why dispensationalism could be the best idea ever.

It's not perfect but it is the best at cohering the biblical puzzle pieces into a whole.

 

[Guojing]

It's not perfect but it is the best at cohering the biblical puzzle pieces into a whole.

You don't need to be a dispensationalist to separate the Old Testament from the New.

However, when it comes to the book of James and relating to it properly from the perspective of a Gentile Church, that takes a dispensationalist.

 

[Melach]

However, when it comes to the book of James and relating to it properly from the perspective of a Gentile Church, that takes a dispensationalist.

tell me about book of james and gentile church?

 

[Guojing]

tell me about book of james and gentile church?

The very first verse gives the clue

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The fact that the book of James was the earliest NT letter written, and was dated before the Jerusalem council event in Acts 15, and of course Acts 21 showed that James never really accepted that Paul's Gospel of Grace was for the Jewish believers.

That I believe is one key to understand how James Ch 2 famous passage about faith without works being dead, should be understood from the perspective of the Gentile Church.

 

[Melach]

The very first verse gives the clue

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The fact that the book of James was the earliest NT letter written, and was dated before the Jerusalem council event in Acts 15, and of course Acts 21 showed that James never really accepted that Paul's Gospel of Grace was for the Jewish believers.

That I believe is one key to understand how James Ch 2 famous passage about faith without works being dead, should be understood from the perspective of the Gentile Church.

how do we know its written before the Jerusalem council event?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You don't need to be a dispensationalist to separate the Old Testament from the New.

However, when it comes to the book of James and relating to it properly from the perspective of a Gentile Church, that takes a dispensationalist.

It does? Why?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The very first verse gives the clue

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The fact that the book of James was the earliest NT letter written, and was dated before the Jerusalem council event in Acts 15, and of course Acts 21 showed that James never really accepted that Paul's Gospel of Grace was for the Jewish believers.

That I believe is one key to understand how James Ch 2 famous passage about faith without works being dead, should be understood from the perspective of the Gentile Church.

That would be a mistake/

One does not have to see this to interpret james 2. Just read it literally as written.

To many people want to put things in there which are not there

James wrote to his people a love letter. It does not say he did not believe in Pauls gospel. They do not contradict each other. They are exposing two problems, so they APPEAR to have two messages when in reality they are in complete agreement.

 

[Guojing]

James wrote to his people a love letter. It does not say he did not believe in Pauls gospel. They do not contradict each other. They are exposing two problems, so they APPEAR to have two messages when in reality they are in complete agreement.

If it was indeed written to the Jews, before the events of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, it is far more likely that James have not understood the Gospel of Grace that was a mystery revealed to only the Apostle Paul then.

Galatians 2, which denote the events leading to the Council, shed more evidence

2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

If James was fully aware of Paul's Gospel before Acts 15, why would Paul need to communicate to them that same gospel?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If it was indeed written to the Jews, before the events of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, it is far more likely that James have not understood the Gospel of Grace that was a mystery revealed to only the Apostle Paul then.

Um, James was given that gospel BEFORE paul even had it.

So not sure what your tryign to say.

Salvation has ALWAYS been by grace. And never by works. So if james was claiming we were literally saved by works, james would have been a false teacher anyway (he is not by the way)

Galatians 2, which denote the events leading to the Council, shed more evidence

2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

If James was fully aware of Paul's Gospel before Acts 15, why would Paul need to communicate to them that same gospel?

To prove to them he did have the correct gospel (all they knew him as was a Pharisee who went around killing christians)

Did Paul teach them a new gospel??

Think about that!

 

[John146]

If it was indeed written to the Jews, before the events of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, it is far more likely that James have not understood the Gospel of Grace that was a mystery revealed to only the Apostle Paul then.

Galatians 2, which denote the events leading to the Council, shed more evidence

2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

If James was fully aware of Paul's Gospel before Acts 15, why would Paul need to communicate to them that same gospel?

And should I add placed in Scripture after Paul’s epistles because as human history plays out, James will be instrumental to the Jews in the tribulation. Paul describes the rapture of the church and Hebrews and James will point the Jews back to their Messiah as His day is literally at hand.

 

[John146]

Salvation has ALWAYS been by grace. And never by works. So if james was claiming we were literally saved by works, james would have been a false teacher anyway (he is not by the way)

Eternal salvation is not the issue, but enduring through the end of the tribulation where it will absolutely take faith and works. There is obviously part of James’ audience that had not received the word and their souls were not saved yet.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

 

[John146]

Um, James was given that gospel BEFORE paul even had it.

So not sure what your tryign to say.

Salvation has ALWAYS been by grace. And never by works. So if james was claiming we were literally saved by works, james would have been a false teacher anyway (he is not by the way)



To prove to them he did have the correct gospel (all they knew him as was a Pharisee who went around killing christians)

Did Paul teach them a new gospel??

Think about that!

Gospel of the circumcision vs the gospel of the uncircumcision...there is a difference, hence the two terms.