Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?
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E
DCon appears to be following the "free grace" gospel and its theology.
Their major beliefs are a lack of delivery and purification of the heart from sin, or even the
need for such. They abandon repentance biblically, and dump most of scripture as not applying
to them selectively. The only reason they register is their hatred of "legalistic" faith which they
claim is 99% of the church. Theologically they tend towards a gnostic eternal spirit at coming
to faith with an evil flesh that is destroyed at the coming of Christ.
Conversation often gets polarised into them proving we are sinners trying to justify ourselves
to God through deeds, and they are the true believers who accept they are sinners and only Jesus
covers them while continuing in sin.
The reason they avoid open discussion as to their theology, because it is so obviously different,
they would be dismissed very quickly. They believe by being obtuse, they can gain converts, while
showing the hypocrisy of believers.
I have seen discussions on the sermon on the mount and just dismissing its tenants like they are
poison and then claiming Jesus did not mean, by not obeying it, they are not building their house
upon the sand. It is a hard road if you want to say you know Jesus while denying His very words.
God bless you.
Their major beliefs are a lack of delivery and purification of the heart from sin, or even the
need for such. They abandon repentance biblically, and dump most of scripture as not applying
to them selectively. The only reason they register is their hatred of "legalistic" faith which they
claim is 99% of the church. Theologically they tend towards a gnostic eternal spirit at coming
to faith with an evil flesh that is destroyed at the coming of Christ.
Conversation often gets polarised into them proving we are sinners trying to justify ourselves
to God through deeds, and they are the true believers who accept they are sinners and only Jesus
covers them while continuing in sin.
The reason they avoid open discussion as to their theology, because it is so obviously different,
they would be dismissed very quickly. They believe by being obtuse, they can gain converts, while
showing the hypocrisy of believers.
I have seen discussions on the sermon on the mount and just dismissing its tenants like they are
poison and then claiming Jesus did not mean, by not obeying it, they are not building their house
upon the sand. It is a hard road if you want to say you know Jesus while denying His very words.
God bless you.
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if grace is not free, it is not grace.
you do not even recognize the Biblical definition of sin, and you yourself have said you do not live up to the standards set fourth in the Sermon on the mount.
we are happy to discuss Scripture. you want to discuss how you *feel about Scripture, not what it actually says and means.
you do not even recognize the Biblical definition of sin, and you yourself have said you do not live up to the standards set fourth in the Sermon on the mount.
we are happy to discuss Scripture. you want to discuss how you *feel about Scripture, not what it actually says and means.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_grace_theology
Free grace theology is a school of thought which creates certain defined positions.
Sadly gb9, I do live up to the standards set forth in the sermon on the mount, but as with all
things I am not perfect, but am growing. You appear not to care, which is testimony enough.
And it is you who do not recognise the biblical definition of sin, missing the mark.
You claim you are willing to discuss such things but you repeat this false statement. This has little
point or value, but I am happy to respond each time, God bless you.
Free grace theology is a school of thought which creates certain defined positions.
Sadly gb9, I do live up to the standards set forth in the sermon on the mount, but as with all
things I am not perfect, but am growing. You appear not to care, which is testimony enough.
And it is you who do not recognise the biblical definition of sin, missing the mark.
You claim you are willing to discuss such things but you repeat this false statement. This has little
point or value, but I am happy to respond each time, God bless you.
ocd legalism
23 everything that does not come from faith is sin
rom 14
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect
matt 5
17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sin
James 4
It is possible to end up seeing good things everywhere and condemn oneself
for not doing them. Equally perfection can go into having a house spotless, or
laying things out in a particular way else that is sin. And in faith, if anything is
outside faith, so television, newspapers, trains, planes etc they are sin.
People use the above ideas to create a self condemning view of Gods will and
purposes, so God intends us to stay in obvious resolvable sin, because all sin
is actually forgiven and belief is the only issue in eternity.
This is free grace's strength and its greatest flaw. Sin as described in scripture kills
us, let alone awaits Gods judgement, and as followers of Jesus we avoid it and
do good. We are in Christ and walking in the Spirit slaves to righteousness, not
sin.
18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
rom 6
23 everything that does not come from faith is sin
rom 14
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect
matt 5
17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sin
James 4
It is possible to end up seeing good things everywhere and condemn oneself
for not doing them. Equally perfection can go into having a house spotless, or
laying things out in a particular way else that is sin. And in faith, if anything is
outside faith, so television, newspapers, trains, planes etc they are sin.
People use the above ideas to create a self condemning view of Gods will and
purposes, so God intends us to stay in obvious resolvable sin, because all sin
is actually forgiven and belief is the only issue in eternity.
This is free grace's strength and its greatest flaw. Sin as described in scripture kills
us, let alone awaits Gods judgement, and as followers of Jesus we avoid it and
do good. We are in Christ and walking in the Spirit slaves to righteousness, not
sin.
18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
rom 6
we all are supposed to be growing more righteous, and having our minds renewed.
but, when it comes to determine if we sin or not, we have to use the Biblical standard, not how we *feel.
faith and belief in Jesus saves. it is a free gift. for starters, the whole letter to Titus.
I know you silly church and it's man-made opinion creed say otherwise ( they and you are dead wrong), but Jesus forgives and saves .
but, when it comes to determine if we sin or not, we have to use the Biblical standard, not how we *feel.
faith and belief in Jesus saves. it is a free gift. for starters, the whole letter to Titus.
I know you silly church and it's man-made opinion creed say otherwise ( they and you are dead wrong), but Jesus forgives and saves .
Determining how we sin or what we sin on, Paul talks of ones conscience
16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.
Acts 24
2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have
been seared as with a hot iron.
1 Tim 4
22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,
having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having
our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:22
Study the word conscience is scripture and you will see the importance Paul puts
on it.
In this we walk in love as love fulfils the law.
10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Rom 13
16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.
Acts 24
2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have
been seared as with a hot iron.
1 Tim 4
22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,
having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having
our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:22
Study the word conscience is scripture and you will see the importance Paul puts
on it.
In this we walk in love as love fulfils the law.
10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Rom 13
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the church you are referring to is the Nazarene Church
http://www.nazarene.org/articles-faith
Nazarene Article 8 from their statement of faith
8. We believe [that repentance, which is a sincere and thorough change of the mind in regard to sin, involving a sense of personal guilt and a voluntary turning away from sin, is demanded of all who have by act or purpose become sinners against God.] [T]the Spirit of God gives to all who will repent the gracious help of penitence of heart and hope of mercy, that they may believe unto pardon and spiritual life. Repentance, which is a sincere and thorough change of the mind in regard to sin, involving a sense of personal guilt and a voluntary turning away from sin, is demanded of all who have by act or purpose become sinners against God.
We believe that all persons may fall from grace and apostatize and, unless they repent of their sins, be hopelessly and eternally lost. We believe that regenerate persons need not return to sin but may live in unbroken fellowship with God through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit who bears witness with our spirits that we are children of God.
(2 Chronicles 7:14; Psalms 32:5-6; 51:1-17; Isaiah 55:6-7; Jeremiah 3:12-14; Ezekiel 18:30-32; 33:14-16; Mark 1:14-15; Luke 3:1-14; 13:1-5; 18:9-14; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 17:30-31; 26:16-18; Romans 2:4; 2 Corinthians 7:8-11; 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Peter 3:9)
I am sharing the above to make clear what gb9 is calling silly and man-made.
God bless you.
http://www.nazarene.org/articles-faith
Nazarene Article 8 from their statement of faith
8. We believe [that repentance, which is a sincere and thorough change of the mind in regard to sin, involving a sense of personal guilt and a voluntary turning away from sin, is demanded of all who have by act or purpose become sinners against God.] [T]the Spirit of God gives to all who will repent the gracious help of penitence of heart and hope of mercy, that they may believe unto pardon and spiritual life. Repentance, which is a sincere and thorough change of the mind in regard to sin, involving a sense of personal guilt and a voluntary turning away from sin, is demanded of all who have by act or purpose become sinners against God.
We believe that all persons may fall from grace and apostatize and, unless they repent of their sins, be hopelessly and eternally lost. We believe that regenerate persons need not return to sin but may live in unbroken fellowship with God through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit who bears witness with our spirits that we are children of God.
(2 Chronicles 7:14; Psalms 32:5-6; 51:1-17; Isaiah 55:6-7; Jeremiah 3:12-14; Ezekiel 18:30-32; 33:14-16; Mark 1:14-15; Luke 3:1-14; 13:1-5; 18:9-14; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 17:30-31; 26:16-18; Romans 2:4; 2 Corinthians 7:8-11; 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Peter 3:9)
I am sharing the above to make clear what gb9 is calling silly and man-made.
God bless you.
Hi gb9,
A lot of people know fellow believers who go to Nazarene churches and are loving blessed
people. I think until you understand why we hold faith the way we do, all you will have is
this desire to destroy something someone else holds dear.
And this summarises what happens when sin takes hold of our hearts, things we dislike we
want to destroy rather than explore why and what they represent.
I feel truly sad for you describing scripture as lying, and encouraging others to ignore it.
God bless you.
A lot of people know fellow believers who go to Nazarene churches and are loving blessed
people. I think until you understand why we hold faith the way we do, all you will have is
this desire to destroy something someone else holds dear.
And this summarises what happens when sin takes hold of our hearts, things we dislike we
want to destroy rather than explore why and what they represent.
I feel truly sad for you describing scripture as lying, and encouraging others to ignore it.
God bless you.
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Animosity expressed. Creating a document to show it dishonour. I wonder if this animosity goes
over into hatred. And what if this hatred is over some precept or verse is Gods word?
Is one then an enemy of God and opposing His Kingdom? I know hatred can do this to people,
and spread like gangrene, and it poisons many things.
Certainly someone reading this will not think, oh a Nazarene Church, Gods Holy Spirit dwells there.
But if the Lords word and His Spirit does dwell there, what of this condemner?
over into hatred. And what if this hatred is over some precept or verse is Gods word?
Is one then an enemy of God and opposing His Kingdom? I know hatred can do this to people,
and spread like gangrene, and it poisons many things.
Certainly someone reading this will not think, oh a Nazarene Church, Gods Holy Spirit dwells there.
But if the Lords word and His Spirit does dwell there, what of this condemner?
It is obvious some on here do not understand the application of the blood nor Romans 2-3........The LAW condemns ALL and Romans makes this clear......HOWEVER.....the saved/born again have BEEN JUSTIFIED from the LAW and we are NO LONGER condemned by our SIN because ALL of our sin has been nailed to the CROSS in CHRIST and WE HAVE BEEN DECLARED legally INNOCENT by HIS BLOOD through FAITH......NOW when WE SIN GRACE abounds MORE than our SIN. GOD now deals with us as SONS and does NOT cast us away, but rather CHASTENS US as DEAR children.......THOSE that state or believe that SIN causes the LOSS of salvation are in error.....Hebrews makes it clear....IF sin can cause the LOSS of salvation then NO ONE is saved and or can be RE-SAVED.....it is IMPOSSIBLE because CHRIST would have to be CRUCIFIED every time ONE SINS......
Christ does not give TEMPORARY life based upon performance....HE GIVES ETERNAL LIFE based UPON FAITH.............
SIN is not the ISSUE....FAITH is the issue.........and I ask ALL that peddle a LOSABLE salvation based upon SIN....
HOW many of you have lost salvation.....and if you say ONLY certain sins will cause that...the ignorance of the that argument is...
BREAK the LEAST of the commandments = GUILTY OF ALL
SO....1 SIN, any SIN by what you peddle = LOSS of salvation and IT CANNOT be regained................good luck with that fallacy!
Christ does not give TEMPORARY life based upon performance....HE GIVES ETERNAL LIFE based UPON FAITH.............
SIN is not the ISSUE....FAITH is the issue.........and I ask ALL that peddle a LOSABLE salvation based upon SIN....
HOW many of you have lost salvation.....and if you say ONLY certain sins will cause that...the ignorance of the that argument is...
BREAK the LEAST of the commandments = GUILTY OF ALL
SO....1 SIN, any SIN by what you peddle = LOSS of salvation and IT CANNOT be regained................good luck with that fallacy!
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The bible is clear......even though 1st Corinthian 3 is applicable to those that minister.......SOME have works of gold, silver and precious stones others wood, hay and stubble.....the latter has their works burnt to a crisp and end up with ashes and yet still saved....there are no scriptures in context that equate to the loss of salvation.....the loss of reward, chastisement, physical ailments (David) and maybe even the loss of physical life yet our life is HID within Christ, he mediates NON-Stop for us, HE paid OUR sin debt and HIS righteousness has been put to our account by faith.....and GOD is clear....WHEN I SEE the blood I WILL PASS OVER YOU!
There is much confusion being shared about what people are opposing and what they are for.
What some want is salvation while being committed to continue in sinful behaviour.
This denies the cross and repentance, and miss-understands the nature of communion with Christ
and what sin actually is, and what the eternal life in Christ represents.
So in essence this is a different faith, with its own meanings and resolutions.
And as long as this belief system is openly declared that is fine, but representing it as if this is
what scripture teaches is a distortion.
The model of life they hate is the one that the heart of a person needs to be cleansed and resolved
in coming to Christ and a believer is a slave to righteousness, walking in love.
It is why my sharing causes such animosity and antagonism. But as Paul says
16 To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.
2 Cor 2
What some want is salvation while being committed to continue in sinful behaviour.
This denies the cross and repentance, and miss-understands the nature of communion with Christ
and what sin actually is, and what the eternal life in Christ represents.
So in essence this is a different faith, with its own meanings and resolutions.
And as long as this belief system is openly declared that is fine, but representing it as if this is
what scripture teaches is a distortion.
The model of life they hate is the one that the heart of a person needs to be cleansed and resolved
in coming to Christ and a believer is a slave to righteousness, walking in love.
It is why my sharing causes such animosity and antagonism. But as Paul says
16 To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.
2 Cor 2
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lol
The parable of the seed and the sower is about what is salvation, becoming a plant that
creates seeds that can be harvested.
And the point of the parable is about starting, growth and final achievement.
It is meaningless to try and divide it into smaller parts because they form a whole, with
a final objective, producing a crop.
So if one has a one hit wonder salvation, one has something scripture does not provide.
The parable of the seed and the sower is about what is salvation, becoming a plant that
creates seeds that can be harvested.
And the point of the parable is about starting, growth and final achievement.
It is meaningless to try and divide it into smaller parts because they form a whole, with
a final objective, producing a crop.
So if one has a one hit wonder salvation, one has something scripture does not provide.
E
Well lets see, I have not been to a baptist church in close to 20 years. And Alot of the beliefs I got from that church I no longer follow
I wish for once people would stop trying to put people in these excel spreadsheets, where they bucn a group of people together (baptist/Catholic/Lutheran/Pentecostle) and underneath is all the characteristics they believe, next to each characteristic is the mark that you agree with them, or the indoctrinated response you would give to that belief system
Then, maybe then, We could have actual conversation between each other. Because then you would be listening to what the other person said, THEN after truly understanding what they believe, respond in kind, In fact, you might even learn something. As I did when I stopped listening to my baptist appologetics of what we believe compared to what others believed, and started listening to THEM, and figured out alot of what I taught I no longer agree with.
Are you open to that? Or are you going to show your a follower of men, listening to what MEN claim I believe, whether those men are right or not? Of course, if you are not open to it, its ok, You have alot of company here of people who refuse to do this either so we have heated arguments based on half truths or false truths which will NEVER be resolved because people think they know and are too proud to even admit they MAY have been taught wrong.
PS, I have many catholic friends who are part of my local body, and they have NOTHING common with catholics. Considering aven many protestant churches follow many catholic teachings and ceremonies and beliefs, it does not surprise me however.
As I have said many times, If I was going to depend on my good deeds to be the root of my salvation, I would be catholic. They have the MOST ways, the MOST works. The MOST means of penance and if all else fails. They even have a group who believe in purgatory. So if I do not live up to make it while living, I can still pay for my sin in death. I love it when I hear legalistic churches fight with catholics. They are no better, they just have LESS obligations (works) to perform.
What are you doing at romans 6 for? We are not talking about romans 6 we are talking about the people in 1 corinthians, You know. The people Paul called BABES in christ, who were struggling with sexual sin, Who he even said such were some of you BUT you were washed, YOU WERE justified. You WERE sanctified. In Jesus name.
Did you IGNORE the post I made from John who said a child born of God can NOT live in sin?
Your focused on sin man, Your no better than the jews focusing on law. How well did they help them overcome sin? We see from Jesus rebuke it did not help them at all. In fact it hurt them, Because as peter said, it was a burden they COULD NOT BEAR, and instead of helping them. It made them self righteous. And when Christ came, they rejected him and crucified him.
You wan to break sin? Do as jesus said, LOVE other, Do as paul said SEEK after the THINGS of the spirit. We stop sin by the power of God (who is at WORK in us to WILL and DO his pleasure (It is his power that energizes us to DESIRE to do his will and the POWER to do it.
You think you going around judging people and making yourself appear righteus is going to help you stop your sin issus? You are in trouble
I said it once, I will say it again, Stop excusing your own sin by watering down the law to a place you can keep it and start to look to the cross. Become that tax collector. Become that person who lives his life every day understanding it if were not for christ you would be doomed where you stand because you have FAILED to reach his standard.
Which keeps you RUNNING the race LOOKING forward, and prevents you from being content thinking you made it! And prevents you from judging others when you got a might big log in your own eye. .
I wish for once people would stop trying to put people in these excel spreadsheets, where they bucn a group of people together (baptist/Catholic/Lutheran/Pentecostle) and underneath is all the characteristics they believe, next to each characteristic is the mark that you agree with them, or the indoctrinated response you would give to that belief system
Then, maybe then, We could have actual conversation between each other. Because then you would be listening to what the other person said, THEN after truly understanding what they believe, respond in kind, In fact, you might even learn something. As I did when I stopped listening to my baptist appologetics of what we believe compared to what others believed, and started listening to THEM, and figured out alot of what I taught I no longer agree with.
Are you open to that? Or are you going to show your a follower of men, listening to what MEN claim I believe, whether those men are right or not? Of course, if you are not open to it, its ok, You have alot of company here of people who refuse to do this either so we have heated arguments based on half truths or false truths which will NEVER be resolved because people think they know and are too proud to even admit they MAY have been taught wrong.
PS, I have many catholic friends who are part of my local body, and they have NOTHING common with catholics. Considering aven many protestant churches follow many catholic teachings and ceremonies and beliefs, it does not surprise me however.
As I have said many times, If I was going to depend on my good deeds to be the root of my salvation, I would be catholic. They have the MOST ways, the MOST works. The MOST means of penance and if all else fails. They even have a group who believe in purgatory. So if I do not live up to make it while living, I can still pay for my sin in death. I love it when I hear legalistic churches fight with catholics. They are no better, they just have LESS obligations (works) to perform.
What are you doing at romans 6 for? We are not talking about romans 6 we are talking about the people in 1 corinthians, You know. The people Paul called BABES in christ, who were struggling with sexual sin, Who he even said such were some of you BUT you were washed, YOU WERE justified. You WERE sanctified. In Jesus name.
Did you IGNORE the post I made from John who said a child born of God can NOT live in sin?
Your focused on sin man, Your no better than the jews focusing on law. How well did they help them overcome sin? We see from Jesus rebuke it did not help them at all. In fact it hurt them, Because as peter said, it was a burden they COULD NOT BEAR, and instead of helping them. It made them self righteous. And when Christ came, they rejected him and crucified him.
You wan to break sin? Do as jesus said, LOVE other, Do as paul said SEEK after the THINGS of the spirit. We stop sin by the power of God (who is at WORK in us to WILL and DO his pleasure (It is his power that energizes us to DESIRE to do his will and the POWER to do it.
You think you going around judging people and making yourself appear righteus is going to help you stop your sin issus? You are in trouble
I said it once, I will say it again, Stop excusing your own sin by watering down the law to a place you can keep it and start to look to the cross. Become that tax collector. Become that person who lives his life every day understanding it if were not for christ you would be doomed where you stand because you have FAILED to reach his standard.
Which keeps you RUNNING the race LOOKING forward, and prevents you from being content thinking you made it! And prevents you from judging others when you got a might big log in your own eye. .
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