Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
i am using my head thanks very much

but what do those verses mean then all the not inherit verses? maybe its talking abotu the millennium kingdom? that those who do those things wont inherit it. but they are still saved because you cant start in spirit and end in flesh?
The kingdom of God is at hand as john the baptist put it. He is talking about right here and right now. If your busy doing certain sins, Your not busy doing Gods work. Your focus is on those sins, and the guilt you WILL endure and the Chastening of the spirit. Thus you will not receive the things God has given us to live in this kingdom of God where you are producing fruit. And you are basically a prodigal child who is on the sidelines and will not inherit the things God desires so badly to give you to live a blessed live on this earth

And PS. I speak from experience! I was a prodigal son for 5 years. And I did MANY things I am not proud of. And all the things I shared are what I felt. (Guilt, shame, chastening, etc etc...)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
whats the difference? why does it matter if its verb or noun? im not asking to argue or spite i ask in love and to learn. maybe i am dumb but please dont tell me that:giggle:
Yes it means quite a bit

Verb is an action word, it is somethign you are physically doing.

Noun is a descriptive word. It gives you a name, or explains your life.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
whats the difference? why does it matter if its verb or noun? im not asking to argue or spite i ask in love and to learn. maybe i am dumb but please dont tell me that:giggle:
Let's use Romans 5:12-19 to make that distinction clear. It is not our individual sins (verb) that brought death and separation from God. It was Adam's sin that made all of us born in sin (noun).

We are born into sin (noun) and hence we sin (verb) because we are sinners (noun). Once you accept Jesus as your divine substitute, you have died to that sinful nature (noun). You are permanently reconciled with God.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
Well lets see, I have not been to a baptist church in close to 20 years. And Alot of the beliefs I got from that church I no longer follow

I wish for once people would stop trying to put people in these excel spreadsheets, where they bucn a group of people together (baptist/Catholic/Lutheran/Pentecostle) and underneath is all the characteristics they believe, next to each characteristic is the mark that you agree with them, or the indoctrinated response you would give to that belief system

Then, maybe then, We could have actual conversation between each other. Because then you would be listening to what the other person said, THEN after truly understanding what they believe, respond in kind, In fact, you might even learn something. As I did when I stopped listening to my baptist appologetics of what we believe compared to what others believed, and started listening to THEM, and figured out alot of what I taught I no longer agree with.

Are you open to that? Or are you going to show your a follower of men, listening to what MEN claim I believe, whether those men are right or not? Of course, if you are not open to it, its ok, You have alot of company here of people who refuse to do this either so we have heated arguments based on half truths or false truths which will NEVER be resolved because people think they know and are too proud to even admit they MAY have been taught wrong.

PS, I have many catholic friends who are part of my local body, and they have NOTHING common with catholics. Considering aven many protestant churches follow many catholic teachings and ceremonies and beliefs, it does not surprise me however.

As I have said many times, If I was going to depend on my good deeds to be the root of my salvation, I would be catholic. They have the MOST ways, the MOST works. The MOST means of penance and if all else fails. They even have a group who believe in purgatory. So if I do not live up to make it while living, I can still pay for my sin in death. I love it when I hear legalistic churches fight with catholics. They are no better, they just have LESS obligations (works) to perform.



What are you doing at romans 6 for? We are not talking about romans 6 we are talking about the people in 1 corinthians, You know. The people Paul called BABES in christ, who were struggling with sexual sin, Who he even said such were some of you BUT you were washed, YOU WERE justified. You WERE sanctified. In Jesus name.

Did you IGNORE the post I made from John who said a child born of God can NOT live in sin?

Your focused on sin man, Your no better than the jews focusing on law. How well did they help them overcome sin? We see from Jesus rebuke it did not help them at all. In fact it hurt them, Because as peter said, it was a burden they COULD NOT BEAR, and instead of helping them. It made them self righteous. And when Christ came, they rejected him and crucified him.

You wan to break sin? Do as jesus said, LOVE other, Do as paul said SEEK after the THINGS of the spirit. We stop sin by the power of God (who is at WORK in us to WILL and DO his pleasure (It is his power that energizes us to DESIRE to do his will and the POWER to do it.

You think you going around judging people and making yourself appear righteus is going to help you stop your sin issus? You are in trouble

I said it once, I will say it again, Stop excusing your own sin by watering down the law to a place you can keep it and start to look to the cross. Become that tax collector. Become that person who lives his life every day understanding it if were not for christ you would be doomed where you stand because you have FAILED to reach his standard.

Which keeps you RUNNING the race LOOKING forward, and prevents you from being content thinking you made it! And prevents you from judging others when you got a might big log in your own eye. .
Good luck with that.....when one goes to seed on something due to religious persuasion......especially some drivelistic loss of salvation due to some of the BIG SINS, while ignoring the fact that by breaking the LEAST of the commands = guilty of ALL.......it is IMPOSSIBLE to deal with one that holds to that fallacy.....

The bible is clear...JESUS paid for every sin except UNBELIEF into his work on man's behalf.....and PAID in FULL (IT IS FINISHED) means exactly that.....

10 to 1 he has never lost his salvation and or only commits the "LITTLE" sins once in a while......
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Well lets see, I have not been to a baptist church in close to 20 years. And Alot of the beliefs I got from that church I no longer follow

I wish for once people would stop trying to put people in these excel spreadsheets, where they bucn a group of people together (baptist/Catholic/Lutheran/Pentecostle) and underneath is all the characteristics they believe, next to each characteristic is the mark that you agree with them, or the indoctrinated response you would give to that belief system

Then, maybe then, We could have actual conversation between each other. Because then you would be listening to what the other person said, THEN after truly understanding what they believe, respond in kind, In fact, you might even learn something. As I did when I stopped listening to my baptist appologetics of what we believe compared to what others believed, and started listening to THEM, and figured out alot of what I taught I no longer agree with.

Are you open to that? Or are you going to show your a follower of men, listening to what MEN claim I believe, whether those men are right or not? Of course, if you are not open to it, its ok, You have alot of company here of people who refuse to do this either so we have heated arguments based on half truths or false truths which will NEVER be resolved because people think they know and are too proud to even admit they MAY have been taught wrong.

PS, I have many catholic friends who are part of my local body, and they have NOTHING common with catholics. Considering aven many protestant churches follow many catholic teachings and ceremonies and beliefs, it does not surprise me however.

As I have said many times, If I was going to depend on my good deeds to be the root of my salvation, I would be catholic. They have the MOST ways, the MOST works. The MOST means of penance and if all else fails. They even have a group who believe in purgatory. So if I do not live up to make it while living, I can still pay for my sin in death. I love it when I hear legalistic churches fight with catholics. They are no better, they just have LESS obligations (works) to perform.



What are you doing at romans 6 for? We are not talking about romans 6 we are talking about the people in 1 corinthians, You know. The people Paul called BABES in christ, who were struggling with sexual sin, Who he even said such were some of you BUT you were washed, YOU WERE justified. You WERE sanctified. In Jesus name.

Did you IGNORE the post I made from John who said a child born of God can NOT live in sin?

Your focused on sin man, Your no better than the jews focusing on law. How well did they help them overcome sin? We see from Jesus rebuke it did not help them at all. In fact it hurt them, Because as peter said, it was a burden they COULD NOT BEAR, and instead of helping them. It made them self righteous. And when Christ came, they rejected him and crucified him.

You wan to break sin? Do as jesus said, LOVE other, Do as paul said SEEK after the THINGS of the spirit. We stop sin by the power of God (who is at WORK in us to WILL and DO his pleasure (It is his power that energizes us to DESIRE to do his will and the POWER to do it.

You think you going around judging people and making yourself appear righteus is going to help you stop your sin issus? You are in trouble

I said it once, I will say it again, Stop excusing your own sin by watering down the law to a place you can keep it and start to look to the cross. Become that tax collector. Become that person who lives his life every day understanding it if were not for christ you would be doomed where you stand because you have FAILED to reach his standard.

Which keeps you RUNNING the race LOOKING forward, and prevents you from being content thinking you made it! And prevents you from judging others when you got a might big log in your own eye. .
If you can read all the above, it is just saying, "I believe in Jesus so am saved, no matter how
I behave I am forgiven, and people who deny this are legalists"

Most of the rest is just attacking others, but without content.
The attack is we are all self righteous hypocrites who cannot accept we are sinners incapable
of following Jesus and obeying Him, and need to just accept Jesus with nothing of ourselves.

Scripture should have just been one A4 sheet of paper. And this says it all.
Condemnation and aggression combined with a little bit of scripture.

44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.
He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth
in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
John 8
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,057
1,526
113
thank you brethren eternally grateful and Guojing for teaching me. i thank you for answering. God will reward you
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Good luck with that.....when one goes to seed on something due to religious persuasion......especially some drivelistic loss of salvation due to some of the BIG SINS, while ignoring the fact that by breaking the LEAST of the commands = guilty of ALL.......it is IMPOSSIBLE to deal with one that holds to that fallacy.....

The bible is clear...JESUS paid for every sin except UNBELIEF into his work on man's behalf.....and PAID in FULL (IT IS FINISHED) means exactly that.....

10 to 1 he has never lost his salvation and or only commits the "LITTLE" sins once in a while......
This is a good summary. We are only interested in legalistic salvation and tick boxes so this little
issue here sends us to Hell.

The fact that God people love Him and desire to learn and follow love in all they do as their life
and heart and soul, seems to pass these guys by.

It is literally worlds apart in direction and motivation and why we would never accept compromise
with sin not matter how deep our struggles are, it is our heart to win through in Christ, Amen.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Let's use Romans 5:12-19 to make that distinction clear. It is not our individual sins (verb) that brought death and separation from God. It was Adam's sin that made all of us born in sin (noun).

We are born into sin (noun) and hence we sin (verb) because we are sinners (noun). Once you accept Jesus as your divine substitute, you have died to that sinful nature (noun). You are permanently reconciled with God.
Interesting idea. On this basis though we sin(verb) it is not actually sinning(verb), which is just plain delusion.
And it is this justification that evil behaviour does not matter that seriously concerns the people of God about
these aggressive, condemning sinners who believe it is their mission to stamp out the church.

God help their souls. God bless you
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Let's use Romans 5:12-19 to make that distinction clear. It is not our individual sins (verb) that brought death and separation from God. It was Adam's sin that made all of us born in sin (noun).

We are born into sin (noun) and hence we sin (verb) because we are sinners (noun). Once you accept Jesus as your divine substitute, you have died to that sinful nature (noun). You are permanently reconciled with God.
I wonder if this is another interpretation issue

The word translated sin is hamarte, which means to fall short or miss the mark.

We are either in a state of “missing the mark” Sin, Noun
Or we are commiting an act which causes us to “miss the mark (sin) Verb
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
Interesting idea. On this basis though we sin(verb) it is not actually sinning(verb), which is just plain delusion.
And it is this justification that evil behaviour does not matter that seriously concerns the people of God about
these aggressive, condemning sinners who believe it is their mission to stamp out the church.

God help their souls. God bless you
Paul has replied to this objection twice in his letters. You know you are preaching the true Gospel of Grace if your readers raise the same objection to you. :)

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The sin that I have bolded, is one of those rare occasions where Paul uses sin as a verb. :)
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
I wonder if this is another interpretation issue

The word translated sin is hamarte, which means to fall short or miss the mark.

We are either in a state of “missing the mark” Sin, Noun
Or we are commiting an act which causes us to “miss the mark (sin) Verb
I thought Romans 5:12-19 made it pretty clear that it was Adam's disobedience that caused all his descendants to "miss the mark".
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I thought Romans 5:12-19 made it pretty clear that it was Adam's disobedience that caused all his descendants to "miss the mark".
In adam all die

It means by position (in adam) we are born dead yes.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Paul has replied to this objection twice in his letters. You know you are preaching the true Gospel of Grace if your readers raise the same objection to you. :)

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The sin that I have bolded, is one of those rare occasions where Paul uses sin as a verb. :)
My friend, I know this argument. But it is an argument about why the law highlights our failure to
know God and follow His ways. Graces work is to redeem us so we can walk in the Spirit and follow
Christ having His love flowing through us.

Paul says this
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,......
4 who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8

We are called to live by the Spirit which fulfils the law because we are no longer law breakers.
Paul talks about our freedom in loving others within the constraints of breaking the law of the
Spirit, while no longer being under the Mosaic law of ceremonies, sabbaths, and roles.

To deny resolving the real sin in ones life is the mistake.
The excuse that is made is you cannot resolve all sin, the small sins that are a lethal as the big
sins. But here is the lie, there are no minor sins. We need to work through our behaviour and
and our direction all the time, in the grace God has provided us with.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,399
6,738
113
Interesting idea. On this basis though we sin(verb) it is not actually sinning(verb), which is just plain delusion.
And it is this justification that evil behaviour does not matter that seriously concerns the people of God about
these aggressive, condemning sinners who believe it is their mission to stamp out the church.

God help their souls. God bless you
you mean like your delusion that you deny the Biblical definition of sin, so you think you can follow your church's creed of " walking just as he walked".

you and your church teach a massive, awful false gospel that states that Jesus only forgives past sins when you put your faith in Him, then after that, we have to grow in Christ up until the point we no longer sin, then we receive salvation , and then only keep it if we continue not to sin.

of course, the creed does not say these things like this, they word it differently, but, when you read between the lines, the above is what is said. and it is a big, fat lie .
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
you mean like your delusion that you deny the Biblical definition of sin, so you think you can follow your church's creed of " walking just as he walked".

you and your church teach a massive, awful false gospel that states that Jesus only forgives past sins when you put your faith in Him, then after that, we have to grow in Christ up until the point we no longer sin, then we receive salvation , and then only keep it if we continue not to sin.

of course, the creed does not say these things like this, they word it differently, but, when you read between the lines, the above is what is said. and it is a big, fat lie .
My friend, sin is doing evil things, things that destroy and lead to death.

It is our heart beat in Christ we wish to not be like this.
It sounds like you do not wish to walk like Jesus called us to walk.

28 We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we
may present everyone perfect in Christ.
29 To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me
Col 1

And I am not following a creed, I am obeying the work Jesus has done in my life.
It is what love is and how Christ transforms us into His children.

To you it appears alien and a lie far off, impossible, a fantasy.
All I can do is testify this is what it means to walk in the Spirit and know His
truth in our lives.

God bless you
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
What is more frustrating, to know Jesus working in ones heart to see His truth and have it work
out in ones life, or to be called a liar and being evil declaring the great work God has done?

Neither because nothing can compare to knowing Jesus and His word and His life in Him.
Amen
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
The kingdom of God is at hand as john the baptist put it. He is talking about right here and right now. If your busy doing certain sins, Your not busy doing Gods work. Your focus is on those sins, and the guilt you WILL endure and the Chastening of the spirit. Thus you will not receive the things God has given us to live in this kingdom of God where you are producing fruit. And you are basically a prodigal child who is on the sidelines and will not inherit the things God desires so badly to give you to live a blessed live on this earth

And PS. I speak from experience! I was a prodigal son for 5 years. And I did MANY things I am not proud of. And all the things I shared are what I felt. (Guilt, shame, chastening, etc etc...)
If your busy doing certain sins, Your not busy doing Gods work.

This sentence I would never expect a christian to utter.
Oh do not worry the evil you are doing, just focus on God and things will go ok.

Sounds like a lost person teaching another lost person how to appear to be a nice individual.
The idea that sin dooms one to hell and its death, does not ever register.

But this happens when sin no longer is important to the Kingdom, only belief, which comes and
goes randomly, depending on where you are on your spiritual dial, bit too satanic or today angelic, lol.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Dial christians, with a spiritual meter, satanic or angelic.

When you meet them hope the dial is set to angelic, or else you will get their satanic setting
of sin and abuse. And do not worry, they are guaranteed a seat by the throne, because they
are saved forever and the satanic side is only their flesh which they have zero control over.

So as your head rolls down the street after being chopped from your body, it is not their fault, they
are a true witness of Gods work in the heart of a sinner, because they are pointing to Jesus....
yea, that sounds really what Paul was preaching .... :cry:
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,399
6,738
113
My friend, sin is doing evil things, things that destroy and lead to death.

It is our heart beat in Christ we wish to not be like this.
It sounds like you do not wish to walk like Jesus called us to walk.

28 We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we
may present everyone perfect in Christ.
29 To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me
Col 1

And I am not following a creed, I am obeying the work Jesus has done in my life.
It is what love is and how Christ transforms us into His children.

To you it appears alien and a lie far off, impossible, a fantasy.
All I can do is testify this is what it means to walk in the Spirit and know His
truth in our lives.

God bless you


of course we all should be getting more like Christ, becoming more like Him. I have never said otherwise.

what I DO say is this- what you are speaking of, and your church creed, is sanctification .

sanctification is a life-long process.

now, salvation is granted as soon is one accepts Christ as Lord and Savior. it is a gift.

what you and your silly, lying church is doing is saying, in effect, that salvation is granted only when one gets properly sanctified. that is the big, fat lie.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
of course we all should be getting more like Christ, becoming more like Him. I have never said otherwise.
what I DO say is this- what you are speaking of, and your church creed, is sanctification .
sanctification is a life-long process.
now, salvation is granted as soon is one accepts Christ as Lord and Savior. it is a gift.
what you and your silly, lying church is doing is saying, in effect, that salvation is granted only when one gets properly sanctified. that is the big, fat lie.
God bless you, I am glad we have got it straight.

I think you have also miss-understood the intention.

Paul says this

11 Aim for perfection
2 cor 13

There is a large difference between growing and walking in Christ
and being dead and abiding in sin.

As some would say there are only two directions in life, either you are growing
or you are going backwards.

What you express and others likewise is the most antagonism I have come across
in regard to obeying Christ and some are in total rebellion against His love and commands.

So I simply cannot believe they are anything but lost. And I just rejoice in Christ,
I am only called to share and witness, I can do no other, Amen. God bless you