A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[UnderGrace]

1 Cor 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, be zealous to prophesy; and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Am I supposed to believe that Paul here is wasting ink and telling people 'be sure to not forbid people speaking hebrew in your church, always get an interpreter to greek though so he isn't just talking hebrew alone there'.

That makes no sense whatsoever. That is common sense and everyone gets it. 'Dont forget to breathe guys'

Paul in all his writing is bring home the reciprocal nature of communication, hearer and speaker.

This is a multilingual community not just Hebrew and Greek, to state such really denies the historical evidence.

The language-speaker is using a problem (unknown) language to worship God.

The language-speaker can be edified even when the language is not translated, however the rest of congregation is not edified if there is no translation.

This explains why Paul would say: "I want you all to speak in [your] languages" (1 Cor 14:5); "Do not forbid to speak in languages" (1 Cor 14:39).
In 1 Corinthians 14 Paul is reconciling two competing values.

He does not want the language speaker to stop speaking because the language speaker is edified and worshiping God.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Paul in all his writing is bring home the reciprocal nature of communication, hearer and speaker.

This is a multilingual community not just Hebrew and Greek, that really denies the historical evidence.

The language-speaker is using a problem (unknown) language to worship God.

The language-speaker can be edified even when the language is not translated, however the rest of congregation is not edified if there is no translation.

This explains why Paul would say: "I want you all to speak in [your] languages" (1 Cor 14:5); "Do not forbid to speak in languages" (1 Cor 14:39).
In 1 Corinthians 14 Paul is reconciling two competing values.

He does not want the language speaker to stop speaking because the language speaker is edified and worshiping God.

Funny.

This interpretation of yours makes it an episode of Dummies at Corinth.

Nobody has to have an Apostle write a letter to tell them not to speak in languages others dont understand without an interpreter, all this is just common sense and no apostolic guidance is needed on that subject.

 

[UnderGrace]

Funny.

This interpretation of yours makes it an episode of Dummies at Corinth.

Nobody has to have an Apostle write a letter to tell them not to speak in languages others dont understand without an interpreter, all this is just common sense and no apostolic guidance is needed on that subject.

That is what you think, you have a 21st century lens on a 1st century new church.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

That is what you think, you have a 21st century lens on a 1st century new church.

I think common sense transcends cultures and times. I disagree with your view BUT I do respect your politeness and willingness to explain your beliefs.

 

[Dino246]

Paul in all his writing is bring home the reciprocal nature of communication, hearer and speaker.

This is a multilingual community not just Hebrew and Greek, to state such really denies the historical evidence.

The language-speaker is using a problem (unknown) language to worship God.

The language-speaker can be edified even when the language is not translated, however the rest of congregation is not edified if there is no translation.

This explains why Paul would say: "I want you all to speak in [your] languages" (1 Cor 14:5); "Do not forbid to speak in languages" (1 Cor 14:39).
In 1 Corinthians 14 Paul is reconciling two competing values.

He does not want the language speaker to stop speaking because the language speaker is edified and worshiping God.

I'll grant that your view makes sense... for the parts of verses you addressed. However, applying your view to certain other verses in the chapter results in nonsense.

Verse 5 says, "Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy...." So Paul wishes that the Corinthians spoke multiple languages in church? That directly contradicts the "order" that he is trying to establish!

Verses 14-15 say, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also." So Paul's mind is unfruitful if he's speaking in a language foreign to his hearers? He's only using his spirit if he's praying or singing in a foreign language?

Verse 22 says, "So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers...." Multiple languages are a sign to unbelievers? How is that? I guess the market at Corinth must really have been a sign to them!

For a view to be true, it must make sense with the whole chapter, not just parts of it. The view must also be consistent with the larger context, which in this case is spiritual gifts, of which one is "speaking in tongues". Speaking one's own language that happens to be foreign to the congregation is not a spiritual gift.

If and only if you can logically divorce chapter 14 from chapter 12 can your view be sound. Given that 14:1 ties them together, I don't see how that is possible.

 

[UnderGrace]

I think common sense transcends cultures and times. I disagree with your view BUT I do respect your politeness and willingness to explain your beliefs.

I'll grant that your view makes sense... for the parts of verses you addressed. However, applying your view to certain other verses in the chapter results in nonsense.

Verse 5 says, "Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy...." So Paul wishes that the Corinthians spoke multiple languages in church? That directly contradicts the "order" that he is trying to establish!

Verses 14-15 say, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also." So Paul's mind is unfruitful if he's speaking in a language foreign to his hearers? He's only using his spirit if he's praying or singing in a foreign language?

Verse 22 says, "So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers...." Multiple languages are a sign to unbelievers? How is that? I guess the market at Corinth must really have been a sign to them!

For a view to be true, it must make sense with the whole chapter, not just parts of it. The view must also be consistent with the larger context, which in this case is spiritual gifts, of which one is "speaking in tongues". Speaking one's own language that happens to be foreign to the congregation is not a spiritual gift.

If and only if you can logically divorce chapter 14 from chapter 12 can your view be sound. Given that 14:1 ties them together, I don't see how that is possible.

Mr. Dino, yes, because you like the cerebral approach , although I will admit the rules of logic make me feel boxed in, but in a good way of course.


Okay thinking and reflecting..........oh boy read it a second time, okay really thinking now!!

 

[GtrPkr]

Yep, in my travels I've been in lots of churches of all denominations that put on a "show", I don't tar all of them the same. Then I've been in churches where the people inside are more dead than the people in the graves outside,still don't tar everyone with the same brush. You learn that when you travel in hundreds of churches.

Must be nice to be so self assured... Come to think of it, I remember musing during the service,"This is more like a pep-rally than a sermon..." just before I fell asleep.

 

[GtrPkr]

Well thanks GtrPkr, not rude of you at all. But I've traveled in possibly over a thousand churches in my day of all denominations. I'd say between the two of us, I'd be a better judge of what goes on in churches. So you can find that boring if you like. But a mature person doesn't judge everyone the same because they went to "this one church one time". smh

Again.... Must be nice to be so self assured.

 

[GtrPkr]

Paul writes about everyone speaking or praying in tongues when they come together

he NEVER said it was demonic. he simply said it was not the proper practice and then explained how it would be better to use this gift in an order in which all could benefit

however, in this thread (and others in times past or current) some fanatics have said it is demonic...poked...jeered...mocked...and twisted scripture and told us it does not mean what it clearly says

is there a dunce cap big enough to fit you all? you all come under the same roof IMO

you have called names and been hurtful and condescending and at least one has pretended interest and then exposed the actual purpose in asking questions

I think you do not remember that God sees hearts. I am not your judge, but I can tell you that your behavior is degrading for those who call themselves Christians

don't bother with anymore smarmy attacks on me or calling me names. I have One who is higher than your insipid silly comments and He sees it all

I have said so many times in these forums that the personal attacks should stop

however, while you poke fun at us 'tongues talkers' you have actually illustrated the same type of over emotional behavior you say disgusts yo

 

[kaylagrl]

Again.... Must be nice to be so self assured.

Yes, I am self assured I know what I'm talking about because of experience. You went to one church. To say all churches are the same is immaturity. And I can tell you they are not. I've to Baptist churches where they spoke in tongues, I've been to Methodist churches where they spoke in tongues and other denominations also. Not exclusive to Pentecostal churches.

 

[kaylagrl]

Must be nice to be so self assured... Come to think of it, I remember musing during the service,"This is more like a pep-rally than a sermon..." just before I fell asleep.

This is a discussion site, not a place to take digs at other denominations you dislike. I don't know the pastor or the church you're speaking of, but that's what takes place in that particular church. You don't like it,don't go.

 

[VCO]

That is what you think, you have a 21st century lens on a 1st century new church.

In my study, I recorded an event that happened in the Biggest Charismatic Church in Dallas about 4 decades ago. Students from Dallas Theological Seminary decided that they wanted to test the Interpreter at the big Charismatic Church. So one of them Memorized the 23rd Psalm in Hebrew, so they waited the following Sunday until two others spoke in tongues, and they Noticed both times one member of the Congregation gave the Interpretation. Then the Dallas Theological Seminary with the Memorized 23rd Psalm in Hebrew, stood up and Gave his memorized 23rd Psalm, and SURE ENOUGH the same member of the Congregation stood up and GAVE a very Biblical so called Interpretation. THE ONLY PROBLEM, IS NOT ONE WORD OF HIS INTERPRETATION CAME FROM THE 23rd PSALM.

BUSTED!

 

[GtrPkr]

Yes, I am self assured I know what I'm talking about because of experience. You went to one church. To say all churches are the same is immaturity. And I can tell you they are not. I've to Baptist churches where they spoke in tongues, I've been to Methodist churches where they spoke in tongues and other denominations also. Not exclusive to Pentecostal churches.

You know, sometimes playing 'devil's advocate' can truly be useful. But the way you perpetuate your own ideology by purposefully making false claims and assumptions about others is not only juvenile and deceitful, it puts an exclamation upon your malicious intent and obvious desire to obfuscate facts and provoke others to anger.

 

[kaylagrl]

You know, sometimes playing 'devil's advocate' can truly be useful. But the way you perpetuate your own ideology....

Oh and you're not perpetuating your own ideology? Tarring all with one brush. smh Right!


by purposefully making false claims


No false claims were made. You were mocking, I called you on it.


and assumptions

No assumptions were made either,just deducing from your own words and mocking.


about others is not only juvenile and deceitful,


Again, nothing deceitful, your own words and mocking attitude were the reason for my answer to you.



it puts an exclamation upon your malicious intent

Seriously, grow up. If you mock others expect to be answered back.





and obvious desire to obfuscate facts and provoke others to anger.

Right, but your smug mocking attitude was ok and not intended to provoke others to anger. This thread is getting nastier by the minute. Needs to be shut down. People are off their nut, obviously this subject can't be discussed here. People are dug in and are throwing rocks. Be a good time to end it. It's intent was wrong from the start.

 

[GtrPkr]

Do you have any control at all over how belligerent and blinded by your own hatred you allow yourself to be? Do you not even realize that "NOW" you have made my point for me?

 

[kaylagrl]

Do you have any control at all over how belligerent and blinded by your own hatred you allow yourself to be? Do you not even realize that "NOW" you have made my point for me?

Buddy you started in with the mocking and hatred,not me!! Don't call me blinded and belligerent when you opened it up. I have no hatred for you dude, I don't even know you. You need to get over yourself fast. smh If you mock people they will answer you back. That has nothing to do with hatred. You're a blind stranger. I know zip about you except your mocking attitude here. So don't try to throw back on me what you started.

 

[GtrPkr]

You're right sister, YOU DON'T KNOW ME AT ALL!!!! Now take a breath... and go back. Re-read everything I've posted in this thread.

 

[kaylagrl]

Do you have any control at all over how belligerent and blinded by your own hatred you allow yourself to be? Do you not even realize that "NOW" you have made my point for me?

Lets review...

" But then the preacher stepped up to the microphone and immediately began babbling.... Then half the congregation responded with the same babble. Sorry, but I got absolutely nothing from that...."


He began speaking in tongues? Is that what you mean by "babbling" Kind of odd to start a service off that way.


You made a rude comment to another poster about putting on a show...

Yep, in my travels I've been in lots of churches of all denominations that put on a "show", I don't tar all of them the same. Then I've been in churches where the people inside are more dead than the people in the graves outside,still don't tar everyone with the same brush. You learn that when you travel in hundreds of churches.


To which you politely put a boring symbol.

Well thanks @GtrPkr, not rude of you at all. But I've traveled in possibly over a thousand churches in my day of all denominations. I'd say between the two of us, I'd be a better judge of what goes on in churches. So you can find that boring if you like. But a mature person doesn't judge everyone the same because they went to "this one church one time". smh


And that is why you received the answer above. Don't believe in tongues? I don't care, don't go to Pentecostal churches. Simple. This whole thread is nothing but nastiness. Disgusting.

 

[kaylagrl]

You're right sister, YOU DON'T KNOW ME AT ALL!!!! Now take a breath... and go back. Re-read everything I've posted in this thread.

Already did and posted our convo. Likewise YOU DON'T KNOW ME AT ALL!!

 

[GtrPkr]

NOBODY IN THIS ENTIRE THREAD DISPUTES THE VALIDITY OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES!!! Quit putting words in my mouth!