A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[Dino246]

What a twisted way he presented his argument, calling good evil.

Gotta make it fit the agenda.

 

[BenFTW]

Yes ..and these different kinds of tongues was the ability to speak in foreign languages.

You do realize the redundancy of the gift of interpretation if the gift of tongues was only to speak in, known, foreign languages? If I am in France, and by the Spirit spoke in French, the gift of interpretation would be moot. Now, if I was speaking in some language that the French didn't understand, but that the interpreter could understand through a supernatural act (understanding of a language they do not know) then the gift of interpretation makes sense.

Subjecting the gift of tongues to only known foreign languages undermines the gift of interpretation. Consider even the verse in 1 Corinthians 14 saying that "no man understandeth him, as he speaks mysteries in the spirit." No man. That means you could have a person for every language of the earth present, and no one would know what he was saying but by the Spirit of God.

 

[UnderGrace]

You do realize the redundancy of the gift of interpretation if the gift of tongues was only to speak in, known, foreign languages? If I am in France, and by the Spirit spoke in French, the gift of interpretation would be moot. Now, if I was speaking in some language that the French didn't understand, but that the interpreter could understand through a supernatural act (understanding of a language they do not know) then the gift of interpretation makes sense.

Subjecting the gift of tongues to only known foreign languages undermines the gift of interpretation. Consider even the verse in 1 Corinthians 14 saying that "no man understandeth him, as he speaks mysteries in the spirit." No man. That means you could have a person for every language of the earth present, and no one would know what he was saying but by the Spirit of God.

Mr. Ben do you only use the KJV bible, just curious?

 

[BenFTW]

Mr. Ben do you only use the KJV bible, just curious?

Its what I grew up on. My own personal bible is a KJV bible. Is it because I said "understandeth" when I was mentioning a verse? lol You have found me out!

 

[UnderGrace]

Its what I grew up on. My own personal bible is a KJV bible. Is it because I said "understandeth" when I was mentioning a verse? lol You have found me out!

I knew it...LOL..okay more to come on 1 Cor 14

 

[VCO]

I prefer to pray in a spiritual language that GOD understands - after all I am praying to both my Lord & God and to my Father in
Heaven - not to other people.

So you do not follow Paul's example ? ? ?


1 Corinthians 14:19 (NJB)
19 all the same, when I am in the assembly I would rather say five words with my mind, to instruct others as well, than ten thousand words in a tongue.


What a same and a waste of time.

 

[Noose]

There is no record of the disciples prophesying, working miracles or discerning between different kinds of spirits prior to Acts 2. The only "gifts" that are recorded are healing and casting out demons. Given that your foundational premise is simply incorrect, your conclusion is also incorrect.

Tongues are not only a miracle to the ears. Acts 2:4 states "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."

Now that you didn't know what tongues are and how they work, i was informing you they are a miracle to the ears of the hearer; the reason Jews spoke in the presence of the gentiles and gentiles in the presence of the Jews and never Jews vs Jews.

Those that you call "only gifts" are still gifts by the same spirit. They drove out demons/ they preached the kingdom of God/ They healed. Healing and driving out demons are miracles, aren't they?

Prophesy is not all about the future but also the ability to interpret what has been prophesied in the past but more so, having an understanding of the gospel. As long as they preached "kingdom of God being at hand", they were prophesying because they talking of the future and having at least a minimum understanding of the kingdom of God. What they did not have a full understanding of is the gospel because the hour had not come.

They did all that without speaking in tongues because it was Jews vs Jews. At Pentecost, they were given powers to go unto the world also and that's how tongues came in. So tongues are human languages and not noise.

 

[Noose]

You are imposing an interpretation of "edifies himself" that is simply not supported in the passage. Every other use of "edify" (or related words) in Scripture is positive. Edification is a good thing, not an "evil" to be corrected. The "evil" that Paul was addressing was disorderly use of the gifts.

Edification is a good thing just like love is a good thing; self edification is not a good thing and the love for self is selfishness, both are evil because the godly love is not self seeking, it is always about others.
Healing/miracles are good but if done for self gain, they become evil and never from God.

The gifts were meant for the common good and not for self and that is what Paul is addressing in 1 Cor 14. In summary, Paul is saying, "if you are not going to impart understanding to others, shut up".

 

[Noose]

Did not Christ bear the cross with the joy set before Him? An ultimate act of love, laying down one's life for another. Yet to what end was this done? To reconcile man to God, there was something to gain in this act. Fellowship. Would you suggest that because Jesus, our Lord, had something to gain in doing good, that it was somehow less?

You would suggest that self-edification is self-seeking, but what can you give if you're empty? Does not this gift build up? Does it not edify self, as scripture says? It isn't a bad thing to take care of yourself so that you may be equipped for every good work. Does not God bless us financially, even? Yes, and in this manner may we be blessed to be a blessing. Why do you speak as if our growing in God, in Christ, is contrary to love? No, such fellowship equips us for the task at hand.

We speak in tongues because it permits us to pray for that which we do not know to pray for. We intercede on the behalf of others. This is honorable. This is a good deed. You say it is selfish, but it is selfless, in that our lips reach God's hearing, for the sake of others. You realize that God lets it rain on the just and unjust? He blesses all, for He is good. What is it to you if God chooses to bless the tongue speaker, and others at the same time?

Would you argue that we ought to keep ourselves in poverty because prosperity is self-seeking? Nay, we ought to rise to new heights. A blessed man may give to the Church, he may extend its work beyond its walls to reach the world around them. Self gain is not unrighteous, when you have a proper understanding of your growth affecting your propensity to give.

Likewise, self-edification, to fellowship with God, to pray and spend time with the Lord edifies self. Yet would you forsake prayer? No. Would you call it self-seeking? No. Yet what does God promise to them that pray in private, give quietly, and fast? A reward. Now these acts include self gain. Are they any less of value? Are they not of love because gain is involved? Of course not.

Contradiction from your side.

Q1. How does praying for others in a language you don't understand become self edifying? self edification means you are praying for yourself

Q2. How do you know that you are interceding for others when you don't have an understanding of what you are saying?
If you are going to pray for me, do it in a language that i understand so that i may agree with an Amen at the end of the prayer.

Private prayer.
It is cool because it is between you and God, yet God already knows your needs before you even open your mouth. He knew of your needs before your great grand parents were born and there's nothing new you are about to tell him in known or unknown language.

According to you, those people without the ability to speak are already doomed to the hell fire because they can't even speak even a known language in public and in private. Now you and others like you are the best of the best because you can pray in private in an angelic language?!
Ok

 

[VCO]

Warning have UNCLEAN SPIRITS have entered the Church:

 

[obedienttogod]

So you do not follow Paul's example ? ? ?


1 Corinthians 14:19 (NJB)
19 all the same, when I am in the assembly I would rather say five words with my mind, to instruct others as well, than ten thousand words in a tongue.


What a same and a waste of time.

Look at this verse correctly!!

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.


This is plain as day...Paul is saying he cannot teach people if he is speaking in Tongues, but in his normal language spoken he can.

It HAS NOTHING to do with Paul claiming Tongues is not useful or needed.
It's like the verse before this one where Paul claims to speak Tongues more than anyone, but in verse 19, if he just got up and spoke in Tongues then no one but God would understand the message. So in church, in order for Paul to teach those listening, he needs to do it in his native tongue.


WOW, can you TWIST SCRIPTURE any more until your view shows, because your view is showing, and it DOES NOT line up with what Paul is stating here!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is not our walk one of faith? I trust the Holy Spirit. I have spoken in tongues since I was a kid. No one taught me to speak in tongues, it just happened. I use to sing in tongues on road trips when I was a kid, and unfortunately, I stopped because of peer pressure (with no mal-intent). It was a comment I overheard, and the tone, which suggested it was weird. Yet, it was a God-given gift.

As with Paul, I rejoice that the Lord has entrusted me with this gift, to use it responsibly and in order.

Again I ask

How can you test that it is the spirit speaking, Just saying you BELIEVE it is from the HS is NOT PROOF. You must have some form of proof that the WORDS YOU ARE SPEAKING are scripturally sound. If you have no understanding what you are saying, how can you test the spirit?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Mr. Ben, of course "language"has purpose in all these places.



The gift of languages was also given so that the Jews would believe that gentiles could be saved.

Scripturally we are talking about language.

Now if you want to pursue the path of angelic language then that is a different conversation.

I believe it was also given so the WORLD at the time could believe this Christ centered church which was spreading was really from God also.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm tired of your insults. I would report you, but I'll just ignore you.

Insults?

Lol.. Well thanks for showing me how I am wrong in what I said. If nothing ese. This just shows that I must be right, Because if not. You could show me how I was wrong in what I was saying.

And oh buy the way, From our EARLIER discussions, you should practice what you preach!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And there's always somebody denying scripture because it doesn't match their agenda.

Now, read this to yourself in the mirror.

(And you said I insulted people. What do you think this off mark comment was?)

Once again, with the do as i say not as I do comments

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I prefer to pray in a spiritual language that GOD understands - after all I am praying to both my Lord & God and to my Father in
Heaven - not to other people.

So God can not understand English? Does not all things come From God. Did not God creat the english language?

It amazes me of those who will discredit or mock the power of God, while charging other people discredit or mock God..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What a twisted way he presented his argument, calling good evil.

I had to look at what you were talking about.. Yeah that was off base what mr Noose said.

 

[Dino246]

Edification is a good thing just like love is a good thing; self edification is not a good thing and the love for self is selfishness, both are evil because the godly love is not self seeking, it is always about others.
Healing/miracles are good but if done for self gain, they become evil and never from God.

Edification is always good... period. Selfishness is not what Paul was implying. As I said before, you can only come to that conclusion if it's your starting point.

 

[Dino246]

Now that you didn't know what tongues are and how they work, i was informing you they are a miracle to the ears of the hearer; the reason Jews spoke in the presence of the gentiles and gentiles in the presence of the Jews and never Jews vs Jews.

Your insults are inappropriate. I understand what Scripture clearly says... that they SPOKE in tongues. Plus, the people present to hear the disciples were themselves Jews who happened to live in areas that spoke other langauges. So it was Jews with Jews. You'd do well to take the cessationist blinders off when you read Scripture.

Those that you call "only gifts" are still gifts by the same spirit. They drove out demons/ they preached the kingdom of God/ They healed. Healing and driving out demons are miracles, aren't they?
I wrote "only 'gifts'", not "'only gifts'". Don't misquote me and then make inane comments rooted in your inability to read carefully.

Prophesy is not all about the future but also the ability to interpret what has been prophesied in the past but more so, having an understanding of the gospel. As long as they preached "kingdom of God being at hand", they were prophesying because they talking of the future and having at least a minimum understanding of the kingdom of God. What they did not have a full understanding of is the gospel because the hour had not come.
Retelling a message that someone else taught you is not prophesying. Anyone can do that; it isn't a gift of the Holy Spirit.

They did all that without speaking in tongues because it was Jews vs Jews. At Pentecost, they were given powers to go unto the world also and that's how tongues came in. So tongues are human languages and not noise.

Your closing sentence is a non sequitur.

 

[Noose]

Edification is always good... period. Selfishness is not what Paul was implying. As I said before, you can only come to that conclusion if it's your starting point.

No one ever said edification is bad, just like love, it is always good until it is applied on self.
Love for self is not love at all, love is about others and Paul has given us the principles in which the gifts operate the greatest being love:

1 Cor 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love;but the greatest of these is love.