Not By Works

[Macabeus]

Well his reply is based your prior assertion so out of context not much I can say, however yelling and comparing me or him to school children is really not necessary Mr. M.

I know that one cannot assume fruit will be automatic.

This is what scripture makes pretty clear:
1. Fruit is not needed for salvation.

2. Fruit is not always fruits of the Spirit, as the unsaved can show these fruits.

3. Fruit can be bad, as the fruit of the Pharisees sent people to hell.

4. Fruit is NOT the evidence of salvation, as Satan presents himself as an angel of light.


5. Fruit is not produced by EVERY Christian (see 1 Cor 3:11-15).

What does this have to do with the statement that believer cannot bear any fruit without a prerequisite period of growth and maturity.

So a believer needs to mature to bear fruit that is not of the Spirit?

SO a believer needs a period to mature to bear bad fruit?

Satan is a mature believer?

...and good fruits are a result of true conversion, not a requirement. Salvation first, fruit after. And obviously, DC was referring to good fruit, as no one in their right mind would think that Christian maturity is needed to bear fruit apart from the Spirit, bad fruit, or that the devil is a mature Christian. See how you took what he said out of context?

And God determines what fruit is good. That is why I do not going around inspecting other people's fruit, as you all dishonestly accuse me of, and cannot verify it by anything I said. I only inspect MY OWN FRUIT, with the help of the scriptures and the Holy Spirit

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Always best to undertsand a doctrine before offering a rebuttal, this false....btw.

Every once saved always saved person I have spoken with in person regarding the subject of OSAS has clearly stated that once they are saved, no sin, no amount of sinning, can unsave them. Were they all wrong?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Always best to undertsand a doctrine before offering a rebuttal, this false....btw.

The truth is from our perspective this is 100% correct.
If someone gave you a glass of cyanide, you would not swig it because it would kill you.

So if OSAS says cyanide will not kill you, but you will not drink it because it will kill you,
that is a contradiction, and absurd. So many times the lying is so implicit in the belief
system, people will talk about evil as if it does not touch them, not realising this very
statement denies the Lord love dwells in their heart.

The nature of the heart is to deny the need to be cleansed of all evil and sin, all known
bitterness and unforgiveness, all justifications for revenge and unfairness, and place it
all at the foot of the cross. Until this happens, everything we do and are is tainted.

It is why I believe the elect are secure, saved to eternity, except I do not know who they
are, praise the Lord, and I do not need OSAS to bring me security in Christ because I know Him.
Security in Christ is in knowing He speaks the truth and has cleansed and purified us and we
know the fruits of this process. It is not an intellectual assent, it is a spiritual reality.

Like the spiritual reality of closed hearts who hate all I share, with such vehmence that only
a closed heart could produce. But the irony is, I am saying a closed heart means they have
shut God out and the promises they hope for are closed to them. But this should bring real
hope, because now these believers know what to do to bring reality and victory into their
lives, which will never fade or turn bad. Amen

 

[Macabeus]

yeah, and every since this was said , you have been obsessed with shouting that one MUST immediately start producing fruit, until they do, they are not saved.
.

Give us the post number(s) where I said that. Because you are LYING.

What I said was that DC made a false universal statement when he said that it takes a period of growth and maturity for a Christian to bear ANYTHING. I never put a timetable on bearing fruit. Only you and DC did. I said that he was wrong to make a statement like that and apply it to everyone, which is what he did when he said "it takes a period of growth and maturity" instead of "It MIGHT take a period of growth and maturity"

You did not understand, because YOU do not know the difference between a NECESSARY CONDITION and a CONTINGENT CONDITION/ POSSIBILITY. I explaned this to you umpteen times.

First look up NECESSITY in the dictionary and then look up CONTINGENCY in the dictionary and tell me if what DC said was that a period of growth and maturity was NECESSARY or if he said it was a possible contingency.

You are talking to someone who does not struggle with the English language

 

[gb9]

The truth is from our perspective this is 100% correct.
If someone gave you a glass of cyanide, you would not swig it because it would kill you.

So if OSAS says cyanide will not kill you, but you will not drink it because it will kill you,
that is a contradiction, and absurd. So many times the lying is so implicit in the belief
system, people will talk about evil as if it does not touch them, not realising this very
statement denies the Lord love dwells in their heart.

The nature of the heart is to deny the need to be cleansed of all evil and sin, all known
bitterness and unforgiveness, all justifications for revenge and unfairness, and place it
all at the foot of the cross. Until this happens, everything we do and are is tainted.

It is why I believe the elect are secure, saved to eternity, except I do not know who they
are, praise the Lord, and I do not need OSAS to bring me security in Christ because I know Him.
Security in Christ is in knowing He speaks the truth and has cleansed and purified us and we
know the fruits of this process. It is not an intellectual assent, it is a spiritual reality.

Like the spiritual reality of closed hearts who hate all I share, with such vehmence that only
a closed heart could produce. But the irony is, I am saying a closed heart means they have
shut God out and the promises they hope for are closed to them. But this should bring real
hope, because now these believers know what to do to bring reality and victory into their
lives, which will never fade or turn bad. Amen

when you get done lecturing , maybe you could study up on the actual definition of sin , and stop studying your opinions and emotions.

 

[gb9]

Give us the post number(s) where I said that. Because you are LYING.

What I said was that DC made a false universal statement when he said that it takes a period of growth and maturity for a Christian to bear ANYTHING. I never put a timetable on bearing fruit. Only you and DC did. I said that he was wrong to make a statement like that and apply it to everyone, which is what he did when he said "it (does) take a period of growth and maturity" instead of "It MIGHT take a period of growth and maturity"

You did not understand, because YOU do not know the difference between a NECESSARY CONDITION and a CONTINGENT CONDITION/ POSSIBILITY. I explaned this to you umpteen times.

First look up NECESSITY in the dictionary and then look up CONTINGENCY in the dictionary and tell me if what DC said was that a period of growth and maturity was NECESSARY or if he said it was a possible contingency.

the only necessary condition for salvation is faith and trust in Christ.

fruit bearing is a result of salvation, not a cause or proof.

if you want external proof of salvation, that make you a fruit inspector.

 

[UnderGrace]

Every once saved always saved person I have spoken with in person regarding the subject of OSAS has clearly stated that once they are saved, no sin, no amount of sinning, can unsave them. Were they all wrong?

That is not what you stated.

You said we assert sin does not matter

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First, the worst is denying sin even matters and that is precisely what OSAS says: once your saved, sin doesn't matter any more, it has no consequence

Dude, Your a liar and bearer of false witness. Your sitting here lieing about what people believe and bearing false witness against them, while saying that sin matters

So what is it. Their sin matters but your free to sin however you want? How dare you get off as a holier than though pharisee who refuses to admit his own sin.

regarding salvation they say, thereby having no realistic concept of sin or the cross. Sin, EVERY sin (think of Adams sin), has within it every evil , every self centered thought, word , or deed, that has ever been thought, said/expressed, done in the history of humanity to the end. The cross is the result of what sin is.

Your first point: Never even heard of someone who denys sin...if one denys the concept of sin or the actuality of sin, how do they excuse something they deny...maybe I am not catching your meaning. If you mean one who deny's their own sin and as such excusing their own sin, again why would you have to excuse something you deny. If you mean one who denies they are capable of sinning, and as such they are excusing any sin they may do, I can only suppose they have to believe that they no longer have fallen human nature so that what they do that others may think is sin is not sin to them as they think they no longer have a fallen human nature. Whatever you may be getting at there, if there is sin there it must be confessed /repented of, forsaken, and that only can be done in Christ...but it has to be done.

Yet here you are denying your own sin. How do they exuse the sin they deny? How did the pharisee excuse their sin they kept denying, when when Jesus called them out. And you have to really ask?

What kind of works do you think people live in that they are free to think you or they are something you are not

The penalty of sin is death, ALL SIN, not just this persons sin, or particular sins you think are grievous. God is not a respecter of persons not is he respecter of one sin over another sin. If you comit a sin, ANY SIN, by defenition you should die on that spot and be cast to outer darkness for all eternity. Which means YOU my friend, are just as guilty as every man woman and child you come into contact with or talk to online or meet on the internet. Yet if we claim it, We excuse our sin,, But you thin k because you DENY it you are ok?

Your not ok my friend, Your denying the very grace being offered to you and expecting God to accpet your self righteousness, which my friend, God said he will not recieve it, he will deny even knowing you if you think you an come to him praising all your great works on judgment day. And he will tall you to depart. You better wise up!

Your second point. Even if one is not conscious of any unconfessed/unrepented of sin, we still fall short of God's standard because there is unknown sin in us. In our walk, as the lord brings specifics to our attention, the Christians attitude is thankyou Lord and confession repentance takes place. And that is walking with the lord, the attitude being 100% yes Lord. Should one turn away from walking with the Lord by rejecting to acknowledge sin the Lord convicts one of, or not confessing/repenting of that sin then salvation is broken...basically the knocking on the door Jesus to whom the door had been opened to is now sent packing. So what you said above is good....the problem with OSAS folks is they do not believe Jesus is a savior from sin, and they believe that once one is saved that their relationship with sin does not matter anymore, as sin (rebellious sin, big, little, unconfessed, unrepented of, etc. etc.) is no issue regarding salvation....and here they are deadly wrong, and Satan smiles.

Again, YOUR A LIAR, Just like Peter and all the other people who have come before you and continue to spread this LIE about others, You are mistaken!!

Your BEARING FALSE WITNESS against a WHOLE GROUP OF PEOPLE who you do not even know

Do some people think that just because they said some prayer they can sin all they want? Yes, No one here denies that. Jude called them out as people whose condemnation was already set in stone. James called them decieved people who think they have faith but never had it. John called them people who NEVER knew God because a child of God CAN NOT continue to live in sin

But most of the people who believe in OSAS (in fact everyone I know who believes in eternal security based on Gods promise not our good works) realise sin comes at a price, it is not left unpunished, and people suffer greatly (look at king david running for his life because of his sin) so yoru wrong, and a liar and a sinner by your own words

These people ALSO, because of Gods faithfulness in his word) WANT to walk worthy of him, WANT to continue to run the race. WANT to come to God as an abba faither, not the spirit of fear as you preach. And want to continue to run the race so they can produce fruit of bringing others to christ, and helping other brohters and sisters overcome their weaknesses and struggles as they are helped.

Instead of judging things you DO NOT KNOW. Why do you not for once in your life see what you are saying, and earn what others actually believe, and stop listing to men who have led you astray.

I am so sick of people saying that people who love God and who understand the REALITY of their situation and their own personal sin issues with God are people who LOVE SIN and think it is ok to go around sinning all they want.


Sadly, Like the jews who made these extra laws THINKING they would actually be LESS tmepted to commit the sins that got them in trouble to begin with, we have so many in churches today think we need to do just as they do. That out of fear for being licentious. We have to do 180 and become legalist, and make sure there is no chance we become licentious.

Well news flash. Legalists are just as false teachers as licentious people are. The difference is they think grace people are legalists, while legalists like you think we are licentious

YOUR BOTH WRONG.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

when you get done lecturing , maybe you could study up on the actual definition of sin , and stop studying your opinions and emotions.

Hi gb9,

You have a particular view, and you have defined it very well, as a sinner incapable of being a saint.
Unfortunately that means you cannot be my brother in Christ as you refuse to deal with the sin you
know about. But God bless you, and I pray the Lord might open your eyes to the victory and life He
has brought through the cross and the Holy Spirit, Amen,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Every once saved always saved person I have spoken with in person regarding the subject of OSAS has clearly stated that once they are saved, no sin, no amount of sinning, can unsave them. Were they all wrong?

Nope

They are not wrong..

Because that is GRACE

Of course, if sin WILL condemn us like you say, NO ONE WILL GET TO HEAVEN (Including you my friend, because your not innocent)

This sin issue (condemnation) was paid for on the cross

The sin issue (Pain and suffering and the destruction of blessing on earth) is an ongoing struggle with all people. Unless we are like you and DENY their is a problem.

 

[UnderGrace]

What does this have to do with the statement that believer cannot bear any fruit without a prerequisite period of growth and maturity.

So a believer needs to mature to bear fruit that is not of the Spirit?

SO a believer needs a period to mature to bear bad fruit?

Satan is a mature believer?

...and good fruits are a result of true conversion, not a requirement. Salvation first, fruit after. And obviously, DC was referring to good fruit, as no one in their right mind would think that Christian maturity is needed to bear fruit apart from the Spirit, bad fruit, or that the devil is a mature Christian. See how you took what he said out of context?

And God determines what fruit is good. That is why I do not going around inspecting other people's fruit, as you all dishonestly accuse me of, and cannot verify it by anything I said. I only inspect MY OWN FRUIT, with the help of the scriptures and the Holy Spirit

Good fruit comes from believers, however it is not automatic. Read 1 Cor.
Obviously in the physical world fruit after a period of time appears so I really do not see the problem with the statement.

Your position which you have stated clearly is that all born again believers will bear fruit otherwise they are not believers correct?

 

[UnderGrace]

yeah, and every since this was said , you have been obsessed with shouting that one MUST immediately start producing fruit, until they do, they are not saved.

that stance, when there is no time frame laid out in Scripture ( actually, it says BEAR fruit, which happens when seed sprouts , breaks ground, grows, blooms , blooms turn into small fruit, fruit grows and bears ),
anyway, that stance makes you a judgemental fruit inspector, whether or not you embrace it.

I think is back loading works onto the Gospel then?

 

[azamzimtoti]

Unfortunately that means you cannot be my brother in Christ as you refuse to deal with the sin you know about.

What specific sin(s) has the poster not "dealt" with Steps?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Dude, Your a liar and bearer of false witness. Your sitting here lieing about what people believe and bearing false witness against them, while saying that sin matters .......

Yet here you are denying your own sin. How do they exuse the sin they deny? How did the pharisee excuse their sin they kept denying, when when Jesus called them out. And you have to really ask? ........

Again, YOUR A LIAR, Just like Peter and all the other people who have come before you and continue to spread this LIE about others, You are mistaken!!

Your BEARING FALSE WITNESS against a WHOLE GROUP OF PEOPLE who you do not even know

It is always ironic, a group who are happy to say they sin uncontrollably, but not say about
what, claim to know Jesus who calls us to do good and not evil, must be nuts.

Which of the 10 commandments are they sinning against?
Has love not taken hold in their hearts, that selfishness and evil is so deep rooted even repentance
and faith cannot shift it? I would suggest this means by their own lips they are not in Christ and
do not have the Holy Spirit.

If a man came to you saying they were a peaceful person except for being a murderer which they
could not stop doing, would you joyfully embrace them or rather take them to the nearest police
station and get them arrested.

This use of the word sin is so flippant, it is like a scarf you wear or a pair of shoes you have.
But this is the cause of the day of judgement, and the lake of fire, so it is not a minor issue or
the difference between loving behaviour and selfish evil behaviour.

God forgave Nineveh because of their repentance and stopping sinning.
So stopping sinning is not that hard and evil is totally destructive.
But the evil these guys talk about is serving in sunday school, or preaching or visiting widows
or prisons or helping the poor. So not only is their language wrong they literally are nuts, and
denying the love Jesus brought, because it has never captivated their souls.

So the lying and bearing false witness goes only one way. These people are just agressive condemners
who pick as their enemies the people of God whose crime is to obey Jesus, follow His commands and
do good.

This group of condemners cannot be more self destructive and counter productive of their own cause.

 

[gb9]

Hi gb9,

You have a particular view, and you have defined it very well, as a sinner incapable of being a saint.
Unfortunately that means you cannot be my brother in Christ as you refuse to deal with the sin you
know about. But God bless you, and I pray the Lord might open your eyes to the victory and life He
has brought through the cross and the Holy Spirit, Amen,

you are not " in Christ " if you do not accept the gift of salvation.

you seem to think, based on your silly , man-made church statement of faith, that when you believe in Christ, you get forgiveness, then when you " walk just as he walked " or " fully repent of sin ", you get salvation.

total lie. anti-Biblical garbage.

and, my stance on sin is NOT a " view ", it is accepting that sin is missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good and not doing so.

so, by DEFINITION, if you fall short of the standards God laid out, then you are a sinner.

that is not a " view " or" concept ' , it is a FACT which, in order to prop up your " I don't sin " delusion, you deny.

 

[BibletruthSOP]

That is not what you stated.

You said we assert sin does not matter

?? Are you saying sin does matter regarding salvation? Are you meaning only before salvation, but not after (as that is what I understand from my many OSAS friends, which to me means sin does not matter). If yes, are you meaning that a saved person who later sins and does not repent does not become lost, just like every other sinner that does not repent, is lost?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

What specific sin(s) has the poster not "dealt" with Steps?

Any. If you say people are sinners, you need to show the sin they have commited.

Put simply, sin is to be confronted and shown.
Saying people can lose their salvation is not a sin. Yet it is this that is claimed to be evil
and leading people to Hell which is just untrue.

In their world, losing your salvation is unbelief in the universal salvation of people who
are some point came to "faith" and are now eternal. Except this is also does not work
because you come to faith because you have an encounter with God, and later come
to see people fall away, which by this timeline means you cannot lose what you have gained.

True sinners come to faith, and the Lord changes their lives, because they are so far destroyed
any place worse is death. For them such issues as fruit and not knowing Jesus do not exist,
because it has been only Jesus who brought them from death to life.

It is why apostate believers make the worst new believers because they are often as hard as
nails as they were when they were legalists to a ridiculous degree and would rip people apart
for wearing the wrong type of suit to church. It makes me wonder which was worse, the legalist
or the ex-legalist?

 

[UnderGrace]

?? Are you saying sin does matter regarding salvation? Are you meaning only before salvation, but not after (as that is what I understand from my many OSAS friends, which to me means sin does not matter). If yes, are you meaning that a saved person who later sins and does not repent does not become lost, just like every other sinner that does not repent, is lost?

Mr. Eternally-Grateful has responded.

You do realize you preach against the Gospel of Grace??

 

[azamzimtoti]

Any. If you say people are sinners, you need to show the sin they have commited.

I don't see how this answers the question of the poster you mentioned in regards to his sins, so "us" his sin. Or is his sin is that he does not agree with you?

 

[azamzimtoti]

Sin does not cause a loss of salvation, what it will bring about is a "chastising", loss of peace and suffering,

Heb 12:7-8 (Endure your suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline?

Endure your suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline?)