A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[Noose]

Sir, scripture itself tells the person speaking in tongues to keep silent in the church (if there is no interpreter) but to speak to himself and to God. That is a private matter involving tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

What of any of the verses I am about to share would make you think that tongues was not for private use (whatsoever)?

1 Corinthians 14:2-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

What about this?

1 Corinthians 14:14-17 King James Version (KJV)
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

Lets kind of put this together. Clearly tongues is edifying the... tongue speaker, right? These verses make it clear, that through speaking in tongues you can pray in tongues, and even sing in tongues. Activities that involve fellowship with God. Not only this, but scripture clearly says that the person speaking in tongues edifies himself, and that he "givest thanks well." All of this has to do with the benefit to the tongue speaker.

However, what is the whole chapter about? Edifying whom? The Body of Christ. This is why in a corporate setting it, the gift of tongues, is to be interpreted for the edification of all. However, do not let this distract you from the fact that tongues clearly have private benefits, that they do edify the tongue speaker (clearly revealed in scripture).

Knowing these private benefits, now read 1 Corinthians 14:28 again. Keep silent in the Church and let him speak to himself and to God. Why? "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men but unto God" and "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself."

I hope this has brought some clarification to the discussion.

Well well well, this is misrepresenting Paul.
You and many others are applying something to your lives just because it was mentioned in the scripture, a fatal error IMO.

Yes, Paul mentioned self edification but that is the evil he wrote to correct that bedeviled the church of Corinth.

1 Cor 12:7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Cor 13:4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

1 Cor 14:1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.

According to Paul, all gifts are to be applied on the basis of love and love is never about self but others.
How do you turn all these clear instruction and now have a self edification as a true gift? How is self edification not self seeking?

 

[UnderGrace]

have not considered its purpose in prayer, worship, and ministering (within the Body of Christ, for their edification).

Mr. Ben, of course "language"has purpose in all these places.

If you think that tongues is only a sign to the Jew,

The gift of languages was also given so that the Jews would believe that gentiles could be saved.

Scripturally we are talking about language.

Now if you want to pursue the path of angelic language then that is a different conversation.

 

[UnderGrace]

And VCO doesn't?! Come on now,be fair.

I would agree he takes seriously as well, but in a different way.

 

[garee]

The issue with many of you, is that you cannot reconcile the differences between what happened at Pentecost and the use of tongues after Pentecost (such as in the Church, with a body of believers or even in private). Not being able to, you then malign what you do not comprehend, and go back to Pentecost thinking that it is the end all and be all of tongues.

If you think that tongues is only a sign to the Jew, you are misinformed, and have not read scripture thoroughly. If you think that tongues is only for the purpose of evangelism, again, you are misinformed and have not considered its purpose in prayer, worship, and ministering (within the Body of Christ, for their edification).

If you can't see past Pentecost, and see it as the only example and purpose of tongues, then continue searching the scriptures because you're mistaken.

It would seem that you are straying from the purpose of the sign of tongues. (unbelief in the heart of man) God was not under a contract to not bring prophecy to other nations and was limited to Hebrew nation alone. The time of reformation has come. The promise in Joel that God would bring prophecy through woman and man through all nations and no longer Hebrew alone had come to pass. It was and remains today a terrible tribulation for the unbelieving Jew .God had cut off the use of their flesh in various parables, in teachings that spoke of the eternal things not seen using the things seen the temporal in order to bring his spiritual understanding hid from the nations of unconverted man represent by a the flesh of a Jew.

Acts 2:15-17 King James Version (KJV) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Tongues, God bringing His word as His interpreterion through all the nations of the world. As a sign confirmed unbelief(no faith) in mankind as faithless as those who mock the word of God.

God with stammering lips, deriding or sarcastic words mocks them and yet they still refuse to believe to confirming they have not been born gain.

Sure mean can reconcile the differences between what happened at Pentecost and the use of tongues after Pentecost (such as in the Church, with a body of believers or even in private). God brining his interpretation to them .called prophecy..

They both have the same foundation found in Isaiah , as a sign that confirms no faith to a unbeliever. One sign one purpose The fact that they others have heard God 's interpret for those who do believe the word of God. no sign gift .We walk by faith

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Seek the understanding of sign as to what it confirms and rest of the doctrine falls into place.

 

[garee]

Easy.
Every time tongues were spoken in the bible, it was by the Jews in the presence of gentiles or by the gentiles in the presence of Jews. In the 3.5 years Jesus' ministry, they did not speak in tongues because Jesus and the disciples ministered, starting with the Jews first.

By that time, the disciples did many miracles by the spirit of God yet they did not speak in tongues until they were given power to go to the gentiles. How come they had other spiritual gifts except tongues?

This explains a lot, what tongues were and should be. Tongues are a miracle to the ears of the listeners, what is happening today is noise to the hearer.

Amen

Yes always in the presence of those who have been given ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches ' It becomes a matter of defining the "us" in Christ and those who went out from "us" because they have another foundation for hearing.

Tongues is prophecy .It stand to reason every time tongues (God's word) were spoken in the bible, it was by the Jews in the presence of gentiles or by the gentiles in the presence of Jews. God does not speak into the air making noises with out meaning. If that was the case in creation when he said: "let it be".... there would be a struggle just what would appear.

Prophecy the greatest as first and foremost is the media by which all the spiritual gifts have their foundation. Prophecy, God's word teaches about all the gifts. No prophecy no knowledge. If we do not hear the words of prophecy .How could we know anything about our living God not seen . Prophecy has a interpretation attached to it. The idea of seeking a private interpretation to understand the thoughts of God is not a biblical doctrine. If a person does not hear the voice of God especially since we have it in whole.... he will not do what is required . "Beleive" as a anchor to ones new soul. Evidence the Spirit of Christ was working in us to both will and perform his good pleasure. Why seek the evidence of a "private interpretation".

2 Peter 1:19-21 King James Version (KJV) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Just on that law alone I would say why would any man trust another to give them their interpretation of sounds that you make and have no idea what they mean.? What kind of spiritual gift would that be?

3,000 men in the twinkling of the eye heard the interpretation of God and beloved God. Not heard Peter. That's a Catholic thing making fleshly men mediators between God not seen and man seen .If Jesus refused to be the infallible fleshly mediator between man and God when called "good master" why would we put our personal relationship with God on the line by making a sound without meaning and seek after a wizard as did Saul in the Old testament when God refused to commune with him ?

Jesus gave glory to the Holy Place that the father alone stands in. To etch it in stone Jesus declared: "only God is the "good" place as the "good soil" he plants the perfect seed of HisLiving word. Good as it seems a has been set up to define that not seen. And God saw it that it was "good'. Same as saying God is good. . just as faith. It alone is the good source of hearing Christ as His labor of love that works in us, with us, to accomplish his good purpose. .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sir, scripture itself tells the person speaking in tongues to keep silent in the church (if there is no interpreter) but to speak to himself and to God. That is a private matter involving tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

What of any of the verses I am about to share would make you think that tongues was not for private use (whatsoever)?

1 Corinthians 14:2-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

What about this?

1 Corinthians 14:14-17 King James Version (KJV)
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

Lets kind of put this together. Clearly tongues is edifying the... tongue speaker, right? These verses make it clear, that through speaking in tongues you can pray in tongues, and even sing in tongues. Activities that involve fellowship with God. Not only this, but scripture clearly says that the person speaking in tongues edifies himself, and that he "givest thanks well." All of this has to do with the benefit to the tongue speaker.

However, what is the whole chapter about? Edifying whom? The Body of Christ. This is why in a corporate setting it, the gift of tongues, is to be interpreted for the edification of all. However, do not let this distract you from the fact that tongues clearly have private benefits, that they do edify the tongue speaker (clearly revealed in scripture).

Knowing these private benefits, now read 1 Corinthians 14:28 again. Keep silent in the Church and let him speak to himself and to God. Why? "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men but unto God" and "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself."

I hope this has brought some clarification to the discussion.

Again I ask, How can you TEST the Spirit to see if it is from God if you have no way to interpret what is being said? For all you know something you would not like is being spoken. By someone who is NOT who you think they are, and you have no way to verify that. That should again be a red flag.

 

[azamzimtoti]

It is interesting to note how Paul lists the order for the early church.

(1 Cor 12:28 And God has placed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, gifts of healing, helps, gifts of leadership, different kinds of tongues.)

We see that "tongues" is listed last, the least of things placed in the early church.

(1 Cor 12:29 Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform miracles, do they?)

(1 Cor 12:30 Not all have gifts of healing, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? Not all interpret, do they?)

Even back then those in the church did not have each of the gifts, not all spoke with tongues.

The apostles are no longer with us, no prophets (such as Agabus predicting a famine in the Roman empire, Acts 11).

What we do have after the ceasing of the spirituals is teachers, helps, leadership which is common in most churches.

Paul stated the gifts of healing, prophets and "different kinds of tongues" would cease.

(1 Cor 13:8 Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside.)

 

[UnderGrace]

different kinds of tongues

Yes ..and these different kinds of tongues was the ability to speak in foreign languages.

 

[Didymous]

And isn't denying Biblical tongues a SIGN OF UNBELIEF? Isn't denying an authentic use of them as an act of the Holy Spirit by default then attributing it to satan?

There's always somebody trying to send somebody to hell.

 

[RickyZ]

If you do not know the exact words, then you have no verification it is from The spirit. Thus like I have been saying, You have no way to test the spirit. And this fact alone makes it questionable.

A judge? lol. You take this story to the judge, I will take the same story (minus the “Unknown language” aspect) and Share the vision and what appears to be a miracle about a vision, Which later came true, And lets see how many people come to FAITH by the VISION (unseen) that appeared to be miraculous. And the same vision with some sign (seen) o someone speaking in a language he could not even understand, which can not even be verified. (Remembering the ONLY difference between the two stories was the “Unknown language) aspect.

Again, Your whole thing Sounded believable. All until the “Unknown language” part. Which I honestly do not see why that was even needed, All throughout the bible from Adam until revelation people saw visions like you shared about other people. And those visions ended up doing as you said. So we have examples of this inspired by God,

Plus, I do not even know you. Let alone if you even have the spirit of Christ, You have yet to share why you think you will be in heaven, (as apposed to the other option) or at least I have not heard it.

And remember, Another member gave an example of a tongues experience and I believed her.

So if you think I am mocking tongues, you can just stop right there, with her as my witness.

I'm tired of your insults. I would report you, but I'll just ignore you.

 

[RickyZ]

There's always somebody trying to send somebody to hell.

And there's always somebody denying scripture because it doesn't match their agenda.

 

[Dino246]

Easy.
Every time tongues were spoken in the bible, it was by the Jews in the presence of gentiles or by the gentiles in the presence of Jews. In the 3.5 years Jesus' ministry, they did not speak in tongues because Jesus and the disciples ministered, starting with the Jews first.

By that time, the disciples did many miracles by the spirit of God yet they did not speak in tongues until they were given power to go to the gentiles. How come they had other spiritual gifts except tongues?

This explains a lot, what tongues were and should be. Tongues are a miracle to the ears of the listeners, what is happening today is noise to the hearer.

There is no record of the disciples prophesying, working miracles or discerning between different kinds of spirits prior to Acts 2. The only "gifts" that are recorded are healing and casting out demons. Given that your foundational premise is simply incorrect, your conclusion is also incorrect.

Tongues are not only a miracle to the ears. Acts 2:4 states "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."

 

[Dino246]

Well well well, this is misrepresenting Paul.
You and many others are applying something to your lives just because it was mentioned in the scripture, a fatal error IMO.

Yes, Paul mentioned self edification but that is the evil he wrote to correct that bedeviled the church of Corinth.

1 Cor 12:7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Cor 13:4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

1 Cor 14:1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.

According to Paul, all gifts are to be applied on the basis of love and love is never about self but others.
How do you turn all these clear instruction and now have a self edification as a true gift? How is self edification not self seeking?

You are imposing an interpretation of "edifies himself" that is simply not supported in the passage. Every other use of "edify" (or related words) in Scripture is positive. Edification is a good thing, not an "evil" to be corrected. The "evil" that Paul was addressing was disorderly use of the gifts.

 

[Dino246]

Tongues is prophecy .

Tongues and prophecy are distinct. If they were the same thing, Paul would not waste several verses differentiating them.

It stand to reason every time tongues (God's word) were spoken in the bible, it was by the Jews in the presence of gentiles or by the gentiles in the presence of Jews.

Acts 19 does not support that. It doesn't specify whether the disciples Paul found were Jews.

Why seek the evidence of a "private interpretation".

2 Peter 1:19-21 King James Version (KJV) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

You clearly do not understand what Peter was saying, despite my having explained it to you clearly several times.

Peter was not talking about the origin of interpretation, but rather about the origin of true prophecy.

 

[Dino246]

It would seem that you are straying from the purpose of the sign of tongues. (unbelief in the heart of man) God was not under a contract to not bring prophecy to other nations and was limited to Hebrew nation alone. The time of reformation has come. The promise in Joel that God would bring prophecy through woman and man through all nations and no longer Hebrew alone had come to pass. It was and remains today a terrible tribulation for the unbelieving Jew .God had cut off the use of their flesh in various parables, in teachings that spoke of the eternal things not seen using the things seen the temporal in order to bring his spiritual understanding hid from the nations of unconverted man represent by a the flesh of a Jew.

Acts 2:15-17 King James Version (KJV) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

You have just undermined your position.

You state rightly that God poured out His Spirit on all flesh, woman and man. You quote Peter's words, "your daughters shall prophesy".

Yet you believe that prophecy is limited to the written word of God, the Bible.

God poured out His Spirit on all flesh, and daughters "shall" prophesy, so where are the books of the Bible written (or spoken) by women after Pentecost? Either the Bible is incomplete, or prophecy is not limited to Scripture.

 

[BenFTW]

Again I ask, How can you TEST the Spirit to see if it is from God if you have no way to interpret what is being said? For all you know something you would not like is being spoken. By someone who is NOT who you think they are, and you have no way to verify that. That should again be a red flag.

Is not our walk one of faith? I trust the Holy Spirit. I have spoken in tongues since I was a kid. No one taught me to speak in tongues, it just happened. I use to sing in tongues on road trips when I was a kid, and unfortunately, I stopped because of peer pressure (with no mal-intent). It was a comment I overheard, and the tone, which suggested it was weird. Yet, it was a God-given gift.

As with Paul, I rejoice that the Lord has entrusted me with this gift, to use it responsibly and in order.

 

[Waggles]

You are right, we should find out, because it is BIBLICAL to Pray for One Another in a language we ALL UNDERSTAND.

I prefer to pray in a spiritual language that GOD understands - after all I am praying to both my Lord & God and to my Father in
Heaven - not to other people.

 

[BenFTW]

Well well well, this is misrepresenting Paul.
You and many others are applying something to your lives just because it was mentioned in the scripture, a fatal error IMO.

Yes, Paul mentioned self edification but that is the evil he wrote to correct that bedeviled the church of Corinth.

1 Cor 12:7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Cor 13:4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

1 Cor 14:1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.

According to Paul, all gifts are to be applied on the basis of love and love is never about self but others.
How do you turn all these clear instruction and now have a self edification as a true gift? How is self edification not self seeking?

Did not Christ bear the cross with the joy set before Him? An ultimate act of love, laying down one's life for another. Yet to what end was this done? To reconcile man to God, there was something to gain in this act. Fellowship. Would you suggest that because Jesus, our Lord, had something to gain in doing good, that it was somehow less?

You would suggest that self-edification is self-seeking, but what can you give if you're empty? Does not this gift build up? Does it not edify self, as scripture says? It isn't a bad thing to take care of yourself so that you may be equipped for every good work. Does not God bless us financially, even? Yes, and in this manner may we be blessed to be a blessing. Why do you speak as if our growing in God, in Christ, is contrary to love? No, such fellowship equips us for the task at hand.

We speak in tongues because it permits us to pray for that which we do not know to pray for. We intercede on the behalf of others. This is honorable. This is a good deed. You say it is selfish, but it is selfless, in that our lips reach God's hearing, for the sake of others. You realize that God lets it rain on the just and unjust? He blesses all, for He is good. What is it to you if God chooses to bless the tongue speaker, and others at the same time?

Would you argue that we ought to keep ourselves in poverty because prosperity is self-seeking? Nay, we ought to rise to new heights. A blessed man may give to the Church, he may extend its work beyond its walls to reach the world around them. Self gain is not unrighteous, when you have a proper understanding of your growth affecting your propensity to give.

Likewise, self-edification, to fellowship with God, to pray and spend time with the Lord edifies self. Yet would you forsake prayer? No. Would you call it self-seeking? No. Yet what does God promise to them that pray in private, give quietly, and fast? A reward. Now these acts include self gain. Are they any less of value? Are they not of love because gain is involved? Of course not.

 

[Waggles]

Hmmmm..... I once attended a non-charismatic service where someone in the back of the church interrupted the sermon "in tongues" and then someone else across the room gave an interpretation ... I've also attended highly charismatic services where people were babbling, wailing, and falling out all over the place ... I think it's useless to debate the Biblical validity of spiritual gifts ... But, as Christians, if we cannot discern the purpose of those gifts then we should certainly question their use.

As an outsider to the U.S.A. I notice that much of Christian worship and doctrine is peculiar to America.
And this certainly applies to much of the charismatic Pentecostal churches I have seen on various TV channels and on YouTube.
BUT what you need to experience is Bible obedient disciplined Pentecost worship that is not out of order and preaches sound
doctrine. Fortunately, Australia is home to the largest Bible disciplined Pentecostal church around - no hoo-haa, non-charismatic,
no music based entertainment replacing preaching the word: and the gifts of tongues, interpretation and prophecy all conducted
decently in order according to scripture: !Corinthians 14.

Lucky for you we have an assembly in Fresno, California that also complies with the word of God and conducts itself properly:
feel free to check them out -

https://trffresno.org/

Nick

 

[BenFTW]

You are imposing an interpretation of "edifies himself" that is simply not supported in the passage. Every other use of "edify" (or related words) in Scripture is positive. Edification is a good thing, not an "evil" to be corrected. The "evil" that Paul was addressing was disorderly use of the gifts.

What a twisted way he presented his argument, calling good evil.