A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[VCO]

Who would disagree? Yet, how do you reconcile the use of tongues within the Body of Christ, with the gift of interpretation? How do you reconcile that one can pray, a private matter, in tongues? This isn't just for evangelistic matters. It is even for worship.

1 Corinthians 14:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Do you see? You are only representing one aspect of tongues, and not the other uses.

1 Corinthians 14:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

How is it that the tongue speaker edifies himself, and yet it is only an evangelistic tool to witness to the unbeliever? There is a contradiction that bangs against your whole notion friend. It not only was used to minister to the Jew, but also the believer, the gentile (for the church is made up of both Jew and Gentile, one new man).

You have to understand the HISTORY of the Corinthian Church to answer that question. And yes I did the RESEARCH into history books, so I understand the History of that Church, and wrote a paper on it. It was based on these verses in the Bible.


Acts 18:1-4 (ESV)
1 After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth.
2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them,
3 and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade.
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Acts 18:7 (HCSB)
7 So he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next door to the synagogue.

Acts 18:8 (ESV)
8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.


When Paul, came the first time to CORINTH, there was NO Church building, so they would meet in Titius Justus HOUSE, and Paul also stayed with Titius.

NOTICE Paul went to the Synagogue EVERY Sabbath. He enjoyed protected status in the Synagogue for a while, because the LEADER IN THE SYNAGOGUE, Crispus had become a Christian, and there were several other JEWS that had SEEN THE RISEN LORD while in Jerusalem for Passover and has stayed for Pentecost Festival too. So they would be eligible to call themselves APOSTLES too, just not part of the 12, AND THEY in a Synagogue, would have had the REAL TONGUES, to convince the words from the 12 APOSTLES were from GOD.

So each Sabbath, when Paul was finished teaching in the Synagogue, the CHRISTIANS would adjourn to Titius Justus house, for a Love Feast, and some of the unbelieving Jews would tag along, and after lunch, then Paul would start Teaching again, the original Church at Corinth, was a home of Titius Justus. It was some time that Paul was allowed to teach at the Synagogue. But eventually Crispus and the other Christians got kicked out of the Synagogue, including Paul. Some think Paul just went down the street to teach at the BEMA. I could not verify that, but it seems REASONABLE, as it was Public Speaking Platform, and in that way Paul would have been able to Convert several of the Pagans. Now some where around 51 AD the first epistle to the Corinthian was written, and the 2 epistle was written around 55 AD. So there would have been time to build a Church Building, but I was unable to LOCATE that building and it may have been near the outskirts of town.

.............................Synagogue⮵ 🕈 Home where Orignal Corintian Church met.

This is a map of the City Center in Corinth, which was destroyed in November 856, an earthquake in Corinth killed an estimated 45,000, and it was never rebuilt. The Church at Corinth was meeting at the home of a Jewish Believer who was still worshiping at the Synagogue of the Hebrews. Paul was staying with the home owner, and Taught at the Synagogue for some time, before they got kicked the out of the Synagogue. See the Bema, upper left Corner; they think that is where Paul continued to teach after they got kicked out of the Synagogue. I have seen other maps that were 180 degrees the other way, so I do not know which is right. The Synagogue of the Hebrews, was a mystery until a few years ago. Corinth was destroyed by an earthquake and never rebuilt. An Archaeologist found a flat stone on the Lechaion Way, one of the main Streets that lead into the City Center, about where the dot for the Lechaion Way is. Apparently, he is the FIRST person that EVER turned that stone over since the Destruction of Corinth in the massive earthquake in 856. To his amazement, it was a sign that said Synagogue of the Hebrews. That pinpoints where the Church met when it first started. Synagogue of the Hebrews is the building with line running across the roof, labeling Lechaion Way. And the smaller house next door just to the south, was where on Paul stayed while a small congregation met their as home Church.


Acts 18:7 (HCSB)
7 So he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next door to the synagogue.

 

[Dino246]

So we will share it so VCO does see it!

I think VCO put you on Ignore as well.

I can see a need for the Ignore function for people who are causing real trouble, but I think it is overused and tends to shut down rational disagreement. Why can't people simply choose not to respond to a post that they find objectionable?

 

[GtrPkr]

Because.... when you question someone's integrity you make an argument personal.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'll repeat my oft told story about Vicki.

While praying PRIVATELY in the Spirit, I received a vision of her under attack from satan and his minions. So I prayed (still in the Spirit) that the demons be bound and silenced, and that angels be sent to her to take her to a place of safety. This was a period of time in prayer, not just a quick sentence). Later on, when we crossed paths a coupe weeks later, not knowing anything about my prayer, she told how she had been in dire straits at that exact same time, and was just about to start cutting her wrists (again) when something, according to her words, took her by the arm, dragged her down to her car, where she drove to a beach. At the beach she came to a bench with a Bible left on it, and as she was reading it, she was met by people who ministered to her.

So here's the test:

1. I was praying privately in tongues as the Bible prescribes.
2. I received knowledge/wisdom/revelation (whatever you want to cal it).
3. I prayed (still in tongues) a response to that information.
4. The subject of the prayer was removed from the danger and taken to a place where she was ministered to and told about redemption in Christ.

I'm pretty sure satan wouldn't have sent her to be ministered about Christ.

So, now, anyone care to say this use of tongues was inspired by demons???

If you were praying in tongues, How did you KNOW what was said?

Now. I can believe you saw a vision and everything else about this story. But speaking on tongues? I see no proof. Nor do I see any REASON. (For all I know you made this up. As many people have) But I will nto judge you, Because again I DO NOT KNOW

I know MANY MANY people who had this same type of experience. And they were praying to God in English and God spoke to them back in English. And they KNOW the spirit was talking to them AND GOD at the same time

So are their experiences any less because they did not speak in tongues?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Or that it was gibberish... They'll say it's only a story and has nothing to do with Scripture. Dogmatic and stubborn, will not relent.

I see nothing scriptural at all about what he said

Again, He stated he prayed in tongues, Yet he KNEW what was being said, and Yet he also saw the vision. 9I can believe the vision part. Witnessed it in myself and others many times.

Why did he NEED to speak in tongues to SEE the vision?

I can understand WHY people would be skeptical. I hope and pray you can also.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think VCO put you on Ignore as well.

I can see a need for the Ignore function for people who are causing real trouble, but I think it is overused and tends to shut down rational disagreement. Why can't people simply choose not to respond to a post that they find objectionable?

Sometimes it is better, For our own sanity, Especially if people do nothing but attack and bear false witness about others.. And have no real desire to discuss anything.

You could call it as one who is wiping the dust off their feet so to speak?? Lol

 

[Dino246]

Because.... when you question someone's integrity you make an argument personal.

That’s true, but questioning their argument is not personal. Some people just take it that way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That’s true, but questioning their argument is not personal. Some people just take it that way.

Bingo!!

Sadly this happens far to often. People are so busy tryign to destroy someones argument, or defend their own belief at all costs. they start to fail to even see what others are saying, there is far far to much of that in here

 

[VCO]

Here is the Rock with the Inscription "Synagogue of the Hebrews" found face down on the Lechaion Way:



It would look like just another piece of RUBBLE laying on the ROAD.

 

[VCO]

Here is the Rock with the Inscription "Synagogue of the Hebrews" found face down on the Lechaion Way:

View attachment 197013

It would look like just another piece of RUBBLE laying on the ROAD.

JEWS ALWAYS during a REBUILD, put the Synagogue in the SAME LOCATION on top of the FOUNDATION of the old Synagogue.

 

[kaylagrl]

I think VCO put you on Ignore as well.

I can see a need for the Ignore function for people who are causing real trouble, but I think it is overused and tends to shut down rational disagreement. Why can't people simply choose not to respond to a post that they find objectionable?

Because VCO has a haughty,arrogant and unteachable spirit. He will not consider he is wrong on this subject or any other. This is why he is saying people are yelling at him. He is stubborn. He believes he is right. He's dogmatic. Even though Scripture is showing him he's wrong about several things he refuses to see it. Not even God can change a person that is willfully blind. So I leave him to it.

 

[kaylagrl]

Bingo!!

Sadly this happens far to often. People are so busy tryign to destroy someones argument, or defend their own belief at all costs. they start to fail to even see what others are saying, there is far far to much of that in here

I thought old VCO was coming around we were agreeing on a few other things. But this is his sacred cow. He is not willing to even consider the point. He was arrogant threatening and trying to cut me off. But I continued to try and show my POV. Very immature to block someone because you can't discuss with them. As soon as I proved he was wrong he blocked me. That says a lot about character IMO.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I thought old VCO was coming around we were agreeing on a few other things. But this is his sacred cow. He is not willing to even consider the point. He was arrogant threatening and trying to cut me off. But I continued to try and show my POV. Very immature to block someone because you can't discuss with them. As soon as I proved he was wrong he blocked me. That says a lot about character IMO.

Yes I do agree. But we must always look inside make sure we are not doing the same

I know a few people in here do this to me to the point I had to ignore them because they just wanted to attack and belittle and not discuss. All because I disagreed with them.

 

[BenFTW]

VCO won't see this, but for the rest of you, the idea that tongues are for Jews who don't believe that Gentiles can be saved is fundamentally different than the idea that tongues are for Jews who don't believe the gospel at all.

Acts 10 completely undermines VCO's argument. Instead of acknowledging that fact, he has made up a fantasy to avoid dealing with it.

Good distinction.

 

[BenFTW]

If you were praying in tongues, How did you KNOW what was said?

Now. I can believe you saw a vision and everything else about this story. But speaking on tongues? I see no proof. Nor do I see any REASON. (For all I know you made this up. As many people have) But I will nto judge you, Because again I DO NOT KNOW

I know MANY MANY people who had this same type of experience. And they were praying to God in English and God spoke to them back in English. And they KNOW the spirit was talking to them AND GOD at the same time

So are their experiences any less because they did not speak in tongues?

Why couldn't he understand his own tongues?

1 Corinthians 14:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

As for the importance of tongues in prayer, we have the Spirit of God giving our spirit the right words to pray to the Father or even to minister to another. In essence one would be praying the perfect will of God. One can even intercede on other's behalf as the Lord ministers life into situations.

A short story: As I was being driven by my family member, I looked over to another car and immediately I saw in my mind that they got into an accident. I felt concern for the person and simply looked at the car and thinking of the person inside, started praying in tongues. Later in fellowship with the Lord I asked if we (because He guides the gift of tongues) interceded on their behalf so they wouldn't get in an accident. He confirmed that was the case. Praise God for His divine intervention.

I know this may sound extreme (to some), but if the Lord is the one guiding you to speak, cannot He too bring a message through the tongues? Hence the purpose of the gift of interpretation, to use the gift corporately for the edification of the Church (putting it on par with prophecy, 1 Cor 14:5).

You don't always know what you're saying, sometimes it is guarded and isn't meant for you to know. However, you can get a glimpse. There are times where someone can speak in tongues and it will be like interpreters each get a bit of the picture, but together there is a whole message. It ties in. The Body and its members working together in unison.

 

[kaylagrl]

Yes I do agree. But we must always look inside make sure we are not doing the same

I know a few people in here do this to me to the point I had to ignore them because they just wanted to attack and belittle and not discuss. All because I disagreed with them.

Well my issue is a lot of times I get caught in a cross fire and told off because of someone else. But VCO is just enraged at anyone who disagrees. He cannot and will not see the other side. Only his thoughts and feelings. All he does is push people away, as he has said with his family. People that aren't open to discussion should not be here. You and I disagree on several things, and some we agree on. I tried to relate to VOC that there were other things we could agree on like music. But he would not give an inch. The funny thing is one his favorite songs and singers he posted in the music forum I know personally, and he's Pentecostal. I wonder of VOC would still be so blessed by that song if he knew the truth?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

No, you are stuck like a broken record on unbelieving Jews. Tongues wasn't only a sign to unbelieving Jews. It was in one instance but not every instance.

you know, I never heard this one before, tongues only for unbelieving Jews, until a couple of years ago from another member here who is also anti-tongues

you really have to get busy with the redacted Bible to come up with that one

the Jews were not the only unbelievers as this thread plainly shows

 

[Melach]

we are in the partial. we see dim. its not talking about the bible being completed, he is talking about seeing Christ face to face and knowing Christ fully, when does that happen? either at death or when Jesus comes again.

i paraphrased brother conway in that video. what he said.

this is my agreement too i think it continues all gifts until Jesus returns.

 

[fredoheaven]

Why couldn't he understand his own tongues?

1 Corinthians 14:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

As for the importance of tongues in prayer, we have the Spirit of God giving our spirit the right words to pray to the Father or even to minister to another. In essence one would be praying the perfect will of God. One can even intercede on other's behalf as the Lord ministers life into situations.

I know this may sound extreme (to some), but if the Lord is the one guiding you to speak, cannot He too bring a message through the tongues? Hence the purpose of the gift of interpretation, to use the gift corporately for the edification of the Church (putting it on par with prophecy, 1 Cor 14:5).

You don't always know what you're saying, sometimes it is guarded and isn't meant for you to know. However, you can get a glimpse. There are times where someone can speak in tongues and it will be like interpreters each get a bit of the picture, but together there is a whole message. It ties in. The Body and its members working together in unison.

What Paul really is saying in the quoted passage is the speaker pray that he may interpret. The word may is a "subjective possibility" meaning it is in the wildest dream, that is why speaking in an unknown tongue is subject to a strictest rule. If no one translate the foreign language, it is best to keep in silence.

1 Corinthians 14 put prophesy into pedestal over speaking in tongues. Here Paul distinguished the following manner about speaking in an unknown tongues:

1. The speaker is not speaking to man but to God. For the receiver/listener doesn't know the language being spoken. It remains mystery or beyond comprehension to the listener/ receiver.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

2. The speaker is said to edifies himself but we have to remember that this Epistle of Paul is not to an individual but rather to a corporeal, a group, or a church specifically to the believers at Corinth. Thus the church must be edified to something other than speaking in an unknown tongue. A better way to that is to prophesy.

1 Corinthians 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

3. Hence, Paul has an undecided desire that Corinthians to speak with tongues for such speaking is unprofitable to the receiver/hearer.

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

4. Unless the speaker interpret, that's taking a possibility, the church may receive edifying. Again if no one is able to interpret/translate, the speaker is only speaking into the air.

1 Corinthians 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

The gift of tongue in the early church is perhaps categorized as a sign-gift. A Sign for unbelieving and a Gift to believers but with the completion of the scripture of truth, the gospel message can be brought out, disseminated without the need of some miraculous act. The Bible is enough to be use in evangelism and to make disciples. The Bible is able to build us up, enabling us to grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3: 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[Dino246]

What Paul really is saying in the quoted passage is the speaker pray that he may interpret. The word may is a "subjective possibility" meaning it is in the wildest dream, that is why speaking in an unknown tongue is subject to a strictest rule. If no one translate the foreign language, it is best to keep in silence.

You've put the most radical spin on "may". It does not necessarily mean "in the wildest dream" (I wonder where you got that idea).

In English, the word "may" has several applications. It does indicate a subjective possibility as you note, but it also indicates capacity or permissive authority.

"Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he [would have the ability to] interpret." (capacity)
"Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he [would possibly] interpret." (possibility)
"Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he [would be permitted to] interpret." (permission)

I submit that the first option makes the most sense in that verse. The "strictest rule" you describe would then be more of an empowering guideline: "Here's what to do" rather than "You must do this".