By grace...how? through the channel of faith so to speak. There is no merit in faith. Those who trust in faith to save them are trusting to a rope of sand, for faith is made perfect by works only...….and it is all of grace. There is never any merit in any works. There is no merit in the works of righteousness (good) works. All merit is of Christ, never is any attributable to man. The whole plan of salvation is of God.
Free Grace or Faith and Works?
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By grace...how? through the channel of faith so to speak. There is no merit in faith. Those who trust in faith to save them are trusting to a rope of sand, for faith is made perfect by works only...….and it is all of grace. There is never any merit in any works. There is no merit in the works of righteousness (good) works. All merit is of Christ, never is any attributable to man. The whole plan of salvation is of God.
salvation - is our walk with Jesus
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.
13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you.
14 Save me from bloodguilt, O God, the God who saves me, and my tongue will sing of your righteousness.
Psalm 51:12-14
27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time,
not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Heb 9:27-28
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes:
first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,
just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and
wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
Romans 1:16-18
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men,
who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Jude 1:4
19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20 But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.
21 Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22 Be merciful to those who doubt;
Jude 1:19-22
6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk.
7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
1 Timothy 1:6-8
17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and
they destroy the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription:
"The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
2 Timothy 2:17-19
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.
13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you.
14 Save me from bloodguilt, O God, the God who saves me, and my tongue will sing of your righteousness.
Psalm 51:12-14
27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time,
not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Heb 9:27-28
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes:
first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,
just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and
wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
Romans 1:16-18
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men,
who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Jude 1:4
19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20 But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.
21 Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22 Be merciful to those who doubt;
Jude 1:19-22
6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk.
7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
1 Timothy 1:6-8
17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and
they destroy the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription:
"The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
2 Timothy 2:17-19
Yea but we are saved when we repent, and repentance is a gift. I agree with both of you, and you are both speaking of the same God, you are literally letting the wording cause a disagreement. The only difference here is perspective, and I can honestly say I have seen it both ways as He has worked in me and grown me.
Being saved is a gift from God that we can claim no credit for. When He granted me true repentance, I mean smashed on the floor soaked in tears 100% defeated heap of brokenness, I wasn't even calling His name. I thought I had already "done that Jesus thing" and had found it lacking in my current condition. See I was still in the flesh totally. I had gone up and repeated the prayer, was even dunked under water later for good measure, told I was saved, thought I was saved. Would have been offended if someone told me I wasn't saved. But I wasn't. When I hit my knees it was seeing the truth of the complete futility of my ways. I saw "my way" for what it truly was and what it truly meant. Nothing at all. See when God GRANTED me repentance I didn't even realize what was happening. I went to bed after that night, the night I declared "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore. World you win, you got me, I QUIT!!!!".
It wasn't until lunch the next day at work that I realized, after 2 full years of having suicidal thought every 5 minutes of every day uncontrollably, that "I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT KILLING MYSELF ALL DAY!!!!!!". I mean to me it was like an atom bomb went off in the parking lot, but in that moment I KNEW two thing, whatever this was was from God, and I knew Jesus was His Son. BOO-YA, the Spirit was testifying of the Father and Son,
but I still didn't even know what was going on yet, but He lead me strait to John, and after I read the conversation with Nicodemus I was like "I think I was born again!!!!!!!!!"
This was ALL God brother, and I did have to surrender it all, even when I didn't know what was happening, but God did. When I thought I was saved, when man declared me saved, I wasn't. When God granted a wretch like me this amazing repentance, while I thought I already knew who He was and had washed my hands of it as pointless. Our God is crazy amazing, and I've spoken with you, and I count you as a brother and feel blessed to have had a chance to get to know your perspective, and love it. I just truly feel you two are speaking of the same thing. I see know need for the "rub" here.
Just an outside perspective and I am thankful for the chance to share any and every time. I'm telling you brothers, I feel a fire burning so hot in me, I just want to shout His praise, but man I feel the time for these internal squabbles over perspectives takes so much time from the miracles He could work through a healthy body united to bring glory to Jesus name in a world that is screaming for it. Of course, and as always, I am saying this to "ME" more than anyone. I want to be a light in this dark world as we are ALL called to be. There is REAL power in His name when spoken boldly, and in love, and in the trenches with people. He has shown me the power of His word and man it is pouring out of me, praise Jesus mighty name!!!!
Being saved is a gift from God that we can claim no credit for. When He granted me true repentance, I mean smashed on the floor soaked in tears 100% defeated heap of brokenness, I wasn't even calling His name. I thought I had already "done that Jesus thing" and had found it lacking in my current condition. See I was still in the flesh totally. I had gone up and repeated the prayer, was even dunked under water later for good measure, told I was saved, thought I was saved. Would have been offended if someone told me I wasn't saved. But I wasn't. When I hit my knees it was seeing the truth of the complete futility of my ways. I saw "my way" for what it truly was and what it truly meant. Nothing at all. See when God GRANTED me repentance I didn't even realize what was happening. I went to bed after that night, the night I declared "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore. World you win, you got me, I QUIT!!!!".
It wasn't until lunch the next day at work that I realized, after 2 full years of having suicidal thought every 5 minutes of every day uncontrollably, that "I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT KILLING MYSELF ALL DAY!!!!!!". I mean to me it was like an atom bomb went off in the parking lot, but in that moment I KNEW two thing, whatever this was was from God, and I knew Jesus was His Son. BOO-YA, the Spirit was testifying of the Father and Son,
but I still didn't even know what was going on yet, but He lead me strait to John, and after I read the conversation with Nicodemus I was like "I think I was born again!!!!!!!!!"This was ALL God brother, and I did have to surrender it all, even when I didn't know what was happening, but God did. When I thought I was saved, when man declared me saved, I wasn't. When God granted a wretch like me this amazing repentance, while I thought I already knew who He was and had washed my hands of it as pointless. Our God is crazy amazing, and I've spoken with you, and I count you as a brother and feel blessed to have had a chance to get to know your perspective, and love it. I just truly feel you two are speaking of the same thing. I see know need for the "rub" here.
Just an outside perspective and I am thankful for the chance to share any and every time. I'm telling you brothers, I feel a fire burning so hot in me, I just want to shout His praise, but man I feel the time for these internal squabbles over perspectives takes so much time from the miracles He could work through a healthy body united to bring glory to Jesus name in a world that is screaming for it. Of course, and as always, I am saying this to "ME" more than anyone. I want to be a light in this dark world as we are ALL called to be. There is REAL power in His name when spoken boldly, and in love, and in the trenches with people. He has shown me the power of His word and man it is pouring out of me, praise Jesus mighty name!!!!
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That Is my signature and I will try to explane It so that It Is understood better.
If a person after getting saved were to go to the bathroom and look In the mirror at their face and saw a black mark/mole on their face and as they were examining their face they were thinking,might this black mole be the start of cancer?
GOD said by HIS stripes I'm healed but this mark says I'm not healed.
A person should look Into the spiritual mirror(the bible)and believe what the WORD says and don't make abnormal provisions for fleshly things putting their trust In the outward man seen In a physical mirror.
I'm not sure what you mean by "you obviously believe In rebirth,but to whom and why?
Obviously I'm talking about spiritual rebirth to GOD.
Who else did YOU think I was talking about?
How do I distinguish between those who walk away and those who stay?
I believe In OSAS so then I don't think a person who was really saved would WANT to walk away.
Our spirits were created perfect by GOD and sealed.
GODs promises are yes and amen.
If a person after getting saved were to go to the bathroom and look In the mirror at their face and saw a black mark/mole on their face and as they were examining their face they were thinking,might this black mole be the start of cancer?
GOD said by HIS stripes I'm healed but this mark says I'm not healed.
A person should look Into the spiritual mirror(the bible)and believe what the WORD says and don't make abnormal provisions for fleshly things putting their trust In the outward man seen In a physical mirror.
I'm not sure what you mean by "you obviously believe In rebirth,but to whom and why?
Obviously I'm talking about spiritual rebirth to GOD.
Who else did YOU think I was talking about?
How do I distinguish between those who walk away and those who stay?
I believe In OSAS so then I don't think a person who was really saved would WANT to walk away.
Our spirits were created perfect by GOD and sealed.
GODs promises are yes and amen.
Thanks for the response.
There are different views as to spiritual birth. Some suggest we are dead in our spirits and the
Lord gives us life. Other suggest an eternal spirit is given to our mortal bodies from heaven, and
we become eternal spirits. Some suggest the spirit is the real person while the flesh is our sinful
element, our spiritual side being perfect, holy and pure and our flesh being sinful and lost.
I would say our spirit soul and flesh is given new life, and as a whole we are a new creation.
We are not eternal, still mortal, but will not suffer from the second death.
The why is significant. Some say it is immediately we assent or accept Jesus is the Son of God
and died for our sins. There is no repentance or commitment to walk in the ways of God, just this
realisation of Jesus. So if the why happens for all people who come forward at a evangelistic
meeting, then all are eternally saved from then on. But statistically this means heaven is full of
failed believers, as few go on to join churches and are still following Jesus 5 years later.
Others have suggested people such as myself, by saying people can know Jesus and then turn
away are not saved at all, because only those who believe one cannot be lost are truly saved.
But this then means a theological question when one comes to faith, validates the experience or
stops it, which to me is an absurd idea.
Because of the above conclusions, only after a reasonable period can you say what has really
taken hold and what was just superficial. I therefore cannot accept the eternal spirit view because
it does not reflect what is actually going on and is simply not in scripture.
There are different views as to spiritual birth. Some suggest we are dead in our spirits and the
Lord gives us life. Other suggest an eternal spirit is given to our mortal bodies from heaven, and
we become eternal spirits. Some suggest the spirit is the real person while the flesh is our sinful
element, our spiritual side being perfect, holy and pure and our flesh being sinful and lost.
I would say our spirit soul and flesh is given new life, and as a whole we are a new creation.
We are not eternal, still mortal, but will not suffer from the second death.
The why is significant. Some say it is immediately we assent or accept Jesus is the Son of God
and died for our sins. There is no repentance or commitment to walk in the ways of God, just this
realisation of Jesus. So if the why happens for all people who come forward at a evangelistic
meeting, then all are eternally saved from then on. But statistically this means heaven is full of
failed believers, as few go on to join churches and are still following Jesus 5 years later.
Others have suggested people such as myself, by saying people can know Jesus and then turn
away are not saved at all, because only those who believe one cannot be lost are truly saved.
But this then means a theological question when one comes to faith, validates the experience or
stops it, which to me is an absurd idea.
Because of the above conclusions, only after a reasonable period can you say what has really
taken hold and what was just superficial. I therefore cannot accept the eternal spirit view because
it does not reflect what is actually going on and is simply not in scripture.
I will research more but a scripture for the time being I found this one
1 Peter 1-3
King James Version
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1-3
King James Version
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
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2 Peter 1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ:
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence To MAKE Your CALLING And ELECTION SURE: for IF ye do these things, Ye Shall NEVER Fail:
Agreed! No way around it!
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ:
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence To MAKE Your CALLING And ELECTION SURE: for IF ye do these things, Ye Shall NEVER Fail:
Agreed! No way around it!
"faith OF the Son of God" -
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by [/in] the faith [G4102] of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20
[or]
"[...] that which now I live in flesh, I live in faith [G4102], that of the Son of God [...]"
G4102 is the same word that is elsewhere (in some versions) translated as "faithfulness" in Galatians 5:22 (esv, nasb, blb, bsb, isv, etc) -
https://biblehub.com/text/galatians/5-22.htm "faithfulness [G4102]" [the fruit of the Spirit is]
So some see this as saying, "[...] that which now I live in flesh, I live by [/in] the faithfulness of the Son of God [...]" or "[...] that which now I live in flesh, I live in faithfulness, that of the Son of God [...]"
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by [/in] the faith [G4102] of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20
[or]
"[...] that which now I live in flesh, I live in faith [G4102], that of the Son of God [...]"
G4102 is the same word that is elsewhere (in some versions) translated as "faithfulness" in Galatians 5:22 (esv, nasb, blb, bsb, isv, etc) -
https://biblehub.com/text/galatians/5-22.htm "faithfulness [G4102]" [the fruit of the Spirit is]
So some see this as saying, "[...] that which now I live in flesh, I live by [/in] the faithfulness of the Son of God [...]" or "[...] that which now I live in flesh, I live in faithfulness, that of the Son of God [...]"
Scripture is quite clear on the answer to the poll's question...
Romans 3:28 NKJV
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:6 NKJV
[6] just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Romans 3:28 NKJV
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:6 NKJV
[6] just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
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You are both correct. To a point!
Sounds like one is talking about AT the Cross.
The other is talking about that which transpires AFTER one "picks up their cross."
Luke 12
58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way (also considered baring ones' own cross), give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.
59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.
Sounds like one is talking about AT the Cross.
The other is talking about that which transpires AFTER one "picks up their cross."
Luke 12
58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way (also considered baring ones' own cross), give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.
59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.
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