Free Grace or Faith and Works?

[eternally-gratefull]

Justification (the faith type) cannot take place without 100% surrender

Thats impossible.

But if you think you did it, More power to ya

Me? I will rely on the power of God.

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Thats impossible.

But if you think you did it, More power to ya

Me? I will rely on the power of God.

LOL.....surrender is by the power of God and that is precisely why it is all or none

 

[FollowHisSteps]

LOL.....surrender is by the power of God and that is precisely why it is all or none

There is an idea anything we do is of the flesh, from self and anything God does is good.
It means staying passive and pointing to God is all we can do.

I find this so odd, as Jesus purchased a people of His own who might bring praise to God.
If we cannot bring praise to God as Gods bride the church, what is the point of purchasing us?

 

[dcontroversal]

This is towards this whole "debate" in general, not towards you DC. I count you as a brother in Christ no doubt to the bone and don't think you'll disagree with anything I'm saying. I just want it to be clear that I just used this comment as a "jumping in point" This is not to YOU personally or anything like that. Okay-

Of course, I have still yet to see ANYONE EVER saying that works save, the biggest disconnect here is some are stuck on "SALVATION", and never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, move past that, and then some speak of the works that naturally follow salvation in our lives as "a result of", AFTER, after after, after, after, after, after AFTER, salvation, As a result of salvation works follow. And always apply this to someone unsaved, or start making a case against maintaining salvation when no one is saying that at all. See we just can never get on the same page because people can take what I just typed, as overly clear as I was, and say I'm teaching works salvation. AHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! for real. It blows my mind how divided we want to be. (me most of all, embarrassingly) Why can we not understand each other and get on the same page? I never have this problem in person. Bottom line is I say once we receive the free gift, the gift beyond the reach of men outside Gods grace, the gift there is nothing I can do to earn, EVER.
but AFTER that, AFTER we are saved His work will shine in us, whoever He saves. AFTER It will be evident, otherwise it would be pointless. Please ANYONE who disagrees please step up and testify that God saved you through His Son Jesus, and that you do nothing for Him ever. That you live the exact same as before with no change. Unless someone can tell me that personally (I wish face to face because that's the best), I won't accept it because I have never heard any Christian testify that, and it's so opposite of what I know of God, and what I WILL testify. ANYONE that meets my God is radically changed forever, and will boldly proclaim that, and ready to serve Him in any way. To make the case one could be saved by God and not do anything for Him is an insult and just plain false. I will not be scared to proclaim the POWER of my King. Jesus!!!!!

And I am again saying bro....anyone that peddles a losable salvation or a salvation that must be maintained by what we do peddles a works based salvation....and you did not offend me migo....I have always considered you my brother....

 

[dcontroversal]

God has never changed the definition of sin or the wages of sin. Sin is the transgression of the law (i.e. lawlessness) and the wages of sin is death. Sin requires foregiveness. There is no fellowship between righteousness and iniquity, zero.

Never said he did...how about stick with the facts....Christ paid the sin debt for the whole world on the cross....and maybe you are too dense to understand that it is finished is an accounting term.....but hey....when one cannot even get salvation right and peddles sinless perfection....what can anyone expect!!!

 

[jaybird88]

the example of Jesus was works. you can not follow Jesus with out works. there is just no way around it.

 

[dcontroversal]

The cross paid sin in full for every human being..thats justification, and it applies to all humanity....Justification by faith or those who believe in him shall not perish.

No....it only applies to those that exercise faith.....and is a LEGAL TERM.....rendered innocent even though guilty.....

 

[dcontroversal]

But to the one who knows there is no salvation merit in any thing they can think, say, or do, but believes in everyword that proceedeth from the mouth of God unto Gods merit and full restoration, his faith is credited or accounted as righteousness, because such faith always results in righteousness (right doing) by the power of God.

You just conflated numerous scriptures into one big deceitful lie.....wow man...this speaks volumes to your honesty, integrity and deceitful error!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

LOL.....surrender is by the power of God and that is precisely why it is all or none

If your not saved yet your on you own and have no power of god. Nice try

 

[GHClarkII]

As God draws nearer to one, even before one believes in Christ? Be it something as simple as "helping an old lady cross the street." (or some other selfless righteous act of love) Tis the "Spirit of God", that is within every breathing human being, that "sees a potential" (calling) in the Holy Seed germinating. Which is also in every breathing human being. Justified?
Yet, this same one? "On a whim", or for grins and giggles, while surfing on the tv, or internet, or even while working his job, or walking down the street, sees someone doing a selfless act of, or even random act of kindness? Or hears on the tv or radio, by song, or word? And, it doesn't have to be much. While "in passing", it can be. More? And receives? More of this "water", let's call it, that is God drawing nearer to that one. Some of this "water" seeps in as the rest goes like "water on a ducks back", And the seed germinates some more.

To the point that this one accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Riddle me? At which point was this one Justified?

At the first righteous act? Some would say possibly, or even yes!

Or, at the point of acceptance of Christ?

I hope I don't have to spell out for the others here that this is rank unbiblical heresy. Anyone want to take a crack at correcting this guy?

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Grace,

Justification is a legal term, It means you have paid your debt, or the penalty imposed by the judge. If the penalty or debt is 10 years behind bars, then the person is not “justified” until the ten years are served. Or the person could be “redeemed” or have his freedom purchased by someone else paying his debt for him

We owe God a debt, that debt is perfection. We have failed to live up to that obligation. So we have a penalty imposed on us, The penalty or debt is death, Which means for every sin we have ever commited, a death penalty is imposed. And for ever sin you will commit from today until the day you die, A death penalty will be imposed.

Which means, You will carry out that debt for eternity. Or you are in need of being redeemed, by someone else paying your debt.

Thats called the cross.

You are not justified from your debt for one sin by any good work you do. Your good works will nto make up or pay for the debt you owe The penalty is death, ONLY death can pay that debt, Which means ONLY God being put on the cross. Suffering the DEBT we owe God can satisfy the justice system God has imposed on the human race. Its called Grace, Through Christ death, he who knew no sin was made sin on our behalf so that we may become the righteousness of God (justified) in or through him.

Justification thus, can only come through faith, Not work, Because again, You can do millions of good deeds, obey Gods commands a million times, and even stop sin, You still will not have paid enough to satisfy the debt for one sin you have commited, let alone the inumerable other sins you have commited since birth.

Salvation by works is impossible. You can not maintain your salvation, Even if God only forgave your sins up to the point your saved, Your still responsible for the debt of every sin you commit after. And again, That penalty is death, If you alreay used up the grace God gave you, Your on your own, and there can be no salvation

Either God saved you by paying for ALL your sin (past present and future) or he paid for your sin up to a certain point, and you better never sin again, Because if you do. Your doomed!

God paid for every sin, past present and future, for every person ever! Now see Romans 3:25 " that are past". Of course the individual is responsible for the debt of every sin they commit, ever. Just as you come to Christ for the forgiveness of past sin (there is no such thing as future sin confession) the first time, you must come again IF you should have new sin.

OSAS version (words in parenthesis)

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin (where are you going with this john...we're saved...why are you talking about sin?), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (well...OK...but you know this is a non-issue since we are saved and cant be lost, right John?)

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins ( maybe we should but its really not an issue since we are OSAS and obviously with that mindset, we are not very apt to even acknowledge sin), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (WHAT! that's impossible. Forgiveness is long past. I came to Jesus ___ years ago....all my sins at that time -past present and future- were forgiven back then. There is no such thing as confession for current sin or forgiveness now for a OSAS person...such an idea has no compatibility with OSAS thank you very much) and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (oh, we get it your talking about those who would accept Jesus in the future, not us His people...ahhh, right?? you know we are OSAS right?? so that kind of talk about unrighteousness can never be applicable to us )

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned (we don't like to talk about that in past tense terms as the words imply. We prefer the rendering to be " "If we say there is power in the gospel for true victory or overcoming". Otherwise the rest of the verse wont fit our OSAS understanding since continuing sinning is a foundational premise of OSAS even though continued sinning is irrelevant regarding OSAS), we make him a liar and his word is not in us (don't exactly know what "his word in us" means but if we can change the first part of the verse as we indicated, that works for us)


1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you , that ye sin not (seems John doesn't realize a grace saved Christian cant stop sinning). And IF (oh John you must mean WHEN, not IF) any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (We need an advocate?? we need an intercessor??? Jesus as high priest?????....but...but..we are already saved and cant be lost..we don't need an intercessor regarding anything to do with salvation).

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments (there you go again john, this keeping God's commandments stuff is not going to sit well with the folks...we know knowing God is eternal life, we believe you there, but please don't associate "knowing God" with commandment keeping).

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments (John how many times do we have to correct you about this nonsense of actually keeping the commandments of God) is a liar (now your really going to far John, stop that talk), and the truth is not in him (John you really have to get with Sa....er OSAS agenda and shut up about such things).

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word (John we appreciate you saying "word" rather than "commandments" here as we can play around with that, at least with those who don't realize keeping Gods word is = to keeping his commandments), in him truly is the love of God perfected (perfect, perfected???? John, never ever use that word perfect around us in association with a human being...we don't care how often its so used in the bible regarding the goal of the gospel for Gods people, that word is anathema to our program)

1 John 2: 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked (nope, even though the bible says Jesus is our example, we all know that Paul wasn't exactly correct when he said Romans 8: 1 & 2 and Romans 12: 1 & 2, so John, we would appreciate it if you wouldn't say the same thing).


1John 3:3 " ...every man that hath this hope (hope??? we are OSAS, hope is for those who havn't risen to our level) in him, purifieth himself, even as he is pure (Look John, its one thing to talk like your head is in the clouds about being pure, but to go to the ridiculous extreme of purity as Christ is pure, get real)

1 john 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not (John your like a broken record. How can you use words like "sinneth not" when everyone who understands the OSAS gospel knows that there is no such thing as sinning not. There is no such thing as victory over sin or overcoming whether in Christ or not in Christ): whosoever sinneth (what do you mean "whosover...its everyone) hath not seen him neither known him (well John, you are incorrigible, good night, and don't call us, we'll call you)

 

[seed_time_harvest]

the example of Jesus was works. you can not follow Jesus with out works. there is just no way around it.

When you say the person cannot follow JESUS without works,are you talking about renewing the mind to be like the new creation that we have become?
Romans 12:1-2
King James Version


1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God paid for every sin, past present and future, for every person ever! Now see Romans 3:25 " that are past". Of course the individual is responsible for the debt of every sin they commit, ever. Just as you come to Christ for the forgiveness of past sin (there is no such thing as future sin confession) the first time, you must come again IF you should have new sin.

OSAS version (words in parenthesis)

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin (where are you going with this john...we're saved...why are you talking about sin?), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (well...OK...but you know this is a non-issue since we are saved and cant be lost, right John?)

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins ( maybe we should but its really not an issue since we are OSAS and obviously with that mindset, we are not very apt to even acknowledge sin), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (WHAT! that's impossible. Forgiveness is long past. I came to Jesus ___ years ago....all my sins at that time -past present and future- were forgiven back then. There is no such thing as confession for current sin or forgiveness now for a OSAS person...such an idea has no compatibility with OSAS thank you very much) and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (oh, we get it your talking about those who would accept Jesus in the future, not us His people...ahhh, right?? you know we are OSAS right?? so that kind of talk about unrighteousness can never be applicable to us )

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned (we don't like to talk about that in past tense terms as the words imply. We prefer the rendering to be " "If we say there is power in the gospel for true victory or overcoming". Otherwise the rest of the verse wont fit our OSAS understanding since continuing sinning is a foundational premise of OSAS even though continued sinning is irrelevant regarding OSAS), we make him a liar and his word is not in us (don't exactly know what "his word in us" means but if we can change the first part of the verse as we indicated, that works for us)


1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you , that ye sin not (seems John doesn't realize a grace saved Christian cant stop sinning). And IF (oh John you must mean WHEN, not IF) any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (We need an advocate?? we need an intercessor??? Jesus as high priest?????....but...but..we are already saved and cant be lost..we don't need an intercessor regarding anything to do with salvation).

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments (there you go again john, this keeping God's commandments stuff is not going to sit well with the folks...we know knowing God is eternal life, we believe you there, but please don't associate "knowing God" with commandment keeping).

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments (John how many times do we have to correct you about this nonsense of actually keeping the commandments of God) is a liar (now your really going to far John, stop that talk), and the truth is not in him (John you really have to get with Sa....er OSAS agenda and shut up about such things).

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word (John we appreciate you saying "word" rather than "commandments" here as we can play around with that, at least with those who don't realize keeping Gods word is = to keeping his commandments), in him truly is the love of God perfected (perfect, perfected???? John, never ever use that word perfect around us in association with a human being...we don't care how often its so used in the bible regarding the goal of the gospel for Gods people, that word is anathema to our program)

1 John 2: 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked (nope, even though the bible says Jesus is our example, we all know that Paul wasn't exactly correct when he said Romans 8: 1 & 2 and Romans 12: 1 & 2, so John, we would appreciate it if you wouldn't say the same thing).


1John 3:3 " ...every man that hath this hope (hope??? we are OSAS, hope is for those who havn't risen to our level) in him, purifieth himself, even as he is pure (Look John, its one thing to talk like your head is in the clouds about being pure, but to go to the ridiculous extreme of purity as Christ is pure, get real)

1 john 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not (John your like a broken record. How can you use words like "sinneth not" when everyone who understands the OSAS gospel knows that there is no such thing as sinning not. There is no such thing as victory over sin or overcoming whether in Christ or not in Christ): whosoever sinneth (what do you mean "whosover...its everyone) hath not seen him neither known him (well John, you are incorrigible, good night, and don't call us, we'll call you)

Here is the point.

All you sin was future when Jesus died.
If he only payed for your past sins. Then the next sin you commit condemsnyou to hell forever. There is no more redemption. Jesus ain’t coming back To pay for your future sin and nothin you posted here refutes that

 

[jaybird88]

When you say the person cannot follow JESUS without works,are you talking about renewing the mind to be like the new creation that we have become?
Romans 12:1-2
King James Version


1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

i meant where ever Jesus went He helped people (works), He also obeyed the law.

 

[Guojing]

What do you think Christ does about the sins from Adam?

He suffered the punishment, the curse and the condemnation from God for that sin we inherited from Adam.

 

[jaybird88]

He suffered the punishment, the curse and the condemnation from God for that sin we inherited from Adam.

Ezekiel 18 says we are held accountable for our own sins not anyone else's.

 

[Guojing]

Ezekiel 18 says we are held accountable for our own sins not anyone else's.

Why are you quoting passages from the Law? You don't agree that Jesus's death on the cross ushered a new and living way to God?

 

[Chester]

Paul says it quite clearly and I agree with him: We are saved by grace through faith

None of the choices given are complete:
(1) by God's free grace - It is enough to say "by grace" - when you add "free" I am suspicious you are adding your own ideas
(2) by faith alone in Christ's work - this leaves out the grace of God - Scripture never says it is by "faith alone"
(3) by faith proved outwardly by works of love - as in #2 this leaves out God's grace, plus adds that we must "prove" something - of course we will do works of love, but we do not do them to "prove" anything
(4-6) these are moving further from the truth and are becoming outright heresy

 

[jaybird88]

Why are you quoting passages from the Law? You don't agree that Jesus's death on the cross ushered a new and living way to God?

im quoting from scripture that Jesus says can not be laid aside.
Jesus dying on the cross, IMO does not mean i can go out and start killing people because i am free from the law.

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Then would you explain how a person can accept Christ, can give themselves to Christ, and never act in a way that Christ acts?

Wishful thinking?