What are the essential beliefs needed for salvation?

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Again you show your ignorance of the scripture. Subjectively quoting half sentences from scripture does not prove a point, and you completely missed Jesus' point in your quotation from Matthew. Christ tells Jerusalem, or the scribes and Pharisees, that he wants to gather her children, not her, but that she was unwilling. This text is a judgement on the rulers of the Jews for trying to hinder Jesus' ministry, not about him wishing their free will choice to choose him would happen. You have not answered any of my points, or anyone else on this forum for that matter, and you are twisting the scriptures which I have just shown. The point is proved, you do not know the scriptures or the Lord. Repent and believe in Christ's work alone. It is not about your free will but His sovereign Grace.

May God be the Judge
What you did was just prove you should not be teaching anyone

The children of Jerusalem is the people of Israel. He spoke to the city. “ Your” (singular) Children. Not the children of the people who were living in jerusalem, Tey where the ones Jesus spoke of.


If you can’t not get this basic fact down, how can we trust you with any other scripture?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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I believe that when Christians lust after the things of world and of the flesh, they fall out of fellowship with Christ, but they do not lose their salvation. They also miss out on the many blessings they would otherwise receive by abiding in Christ. Abiding in God's word gives us the strength to fight the many battles that most of us face during our lifetimes. God's word also gives us peace and comfort that is beyond understanding. Every Christian should let the light of Christ shine in their lives, but we know that doesn't always happen if they're not listening to the Holy Spirit within themselves and growing in God's word. Pray that the Holy Spirit will convict their hearts of their sin, rather than judge them.
I have disagreed with many things that you have said, but, this post I am in agreement with.
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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What you did was just prove you should not be teaching anyone

The children of Jerusalem is the people of Israel. He spoke to the city. “ Your” (singular) Children. Not the children of the people who were living in jerusalem, Tey where the ones Jesus spoke of.

If you can’t not get this basic fact down, how can we trust you with any other scripture?
Referring to the leaders of Jerusalem as Jerusalem itself is a common practice of the old testament prophets. To not know this concerns me deeply for you my friend.

Second, the audience Jesus was speaking to in Matthew 23 hears his rebuke of the scribes and Pharisees multiple times. This entire section is littered with him rebuking them as snakes, liars, hypocrites, and finally as murderers. You have completely left the context, again showing you do not handle the Word rightly.

Lastly, even if your interpretation is true, and I've shown it isn't, you still don't prove your point. Christ desires to gather her children, not her. Them denying him and choosing against him isn't what this verse is about at all.

My friend, you deny the Lord by twisting His Gospel to add in the free will of men. It isn't here, and that is plain to anyone reading it. Please see that you are blind to the truth and repent. Hear the voice of God in these scriptures and trust in Him alone.

May God be the Judge
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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Romans 2:12 "For there is NO partiality with God." He did not choose ahead of time who would go to heaven or hell. Each of us choose our own destiny. When people hypocritically and selfishly seek their own justification, the results are wrath (2 Thess. 1:8)--the consistent, purposeful response of God to unrighteousness.
In that same book Paul tells us God chose Jacob over Esau before they were born or did anything. Your alienate this half sentence from it's context and from it's author.

Paul is saying God chooses whom He will not based on us but based on His sovereign good pleasure. Please read scripture in context.

May God be the Judge
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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I believe that when Christians lust after the things of world and of the flesh, they fall out of fellowship with Christ, but they do not lose their salvation. They also miss out on the many blessings they would otherwise receive by abiding in Christ. Abiding in God's word gives us the strength to fight the many battles that most of us face during our lifetimes. God's word also gives us peace and comfort that is beyond understanding. Every Christian should let the light of Christ shine in their lives, but we know that doesn't always happen if they're not listening to the Holy Spirit within themselves and growing in God's word. Pray that the Holy Spirit will convict their hearts of their sin, rather than judge them.
Funnily judging people has never been the issue I have had.
Many who hold a similar view to yourself are the ones judging, and telling me I am evil and lost.

So rather than dealing with sin as something poisonous and lethal, it is the righteous and those
aspiring to walk like Jesus become the enemy. I know the theology and how this comes about
and how anger grips many souls along with bitterness.

Grace can be taken too far, but is also an important part of showing support and love for those
struggling. If one takes theology of being like Jesus as just being hypocrisy, then one claims one is
stopping judgementalism of sinful believers while actually creating judgementalism of righteous
walking believers which is a far worse a situation to be in.

And what is most upsetting is the ferocity and accusations raised which are all invented and false
which suggests to me this is not a Holy Spirit driven theology at all.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Referring to the leaders of Jerusalem as Jerusalem itself is a common practice of the old testament prophets. To not know this concerns me deeply for you my friend.

Second, the audience Jesus was speaking to in Matthew 23 hears his rebuke of the scribes and Pharisees multiple times. This entire section is littered with him rebuking them as snakes, liars, hypocrites, and finally as murderers. You have completely left the context, again showing you do not handle the Word rightly.

Lastly, even if your interpretation is true, and I've shown it isn't, you still don't prove your point. Christ desires to gather her children, not her. Them denying him and choosing against him isn't what this verse is about at all.

My friend, you deny the Lord by twisting His Gospel to add in the free will of men. It isn't here, and that is plain to anyone reading it. Please see that you are blind to the truth and repent. Hear the voice of God in these scriptures and trust in Him alone.

May God be the Judge
Jesus said JERUSALEM (He spoke of the city, How often I wished to take YOUR CHILDREN.

The context was the children of JERUSALEM. Not the people who lived in jerusalem and their children.

That makes no sense.. If this is your reasoning, Again, You walking on thin ice
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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Jesus said JERUSALEM (He spoke of the city, How often I wished to take YOUR CHILDREN.

The context was the children of JERUSALEM. Not the people who lived in jerusalem and their children.

That makes no sense.. If this is your reasoning, Again, You walking on thin ice
I'll say this again, but only once more. The context is clear. These are 7 woes to the scribes and Pharisees about their evil in lying to the people turning from God and killing the prophets please read the whole chapter, this could not be clearer. Also, again, in the OT the prophets rebuked the Kings and priests often by calling them Jerusalem. In no biblical passage I am familiar with would the reference to Jerusalem be the entire city. It is always a reference to he leaders of the Jews. This makes perfect sense in the CONTEXT. He is rebuking the leaders of the Jews for hindering his ministry to the average people.

2 things have become very apparent to me from your responses. I may be wrong, this has been a short exchange, but so far I've seen 2 things. First, you refuse to use the context of a passage to exegete it. It is as if you have never heard of context before and think that by putting quotation marks around parts of sentences you are making a point. This isn't the case. If you cannot see a verse in the context around it, you will not understand what it is saying. Trying to interpret half sentences won't do you any favors.
Second, you haven't explained how your interpretation makes sense of the verse as a whole. Or how it makes your conclusion make sense. If you cannot even interpret the verse after you've ripped it from it's context, yet you want to say that others should not teach, then I must confess I'm sad for you friend. Please feel free to give us the context as you see it and the interpretation after, as I have done, since you have done neither.

May God be the Judge
 
Mar 29, 2019
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Genesis 25:27 tells us that Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; but Jacob was plain man, dwelling in tents. The Hebrew word for "plain" is the same word translated in other Scripture as perfect, upright, undefiled. So the word plain refers to Jacob's character as a man of God. God records His highest praise and blessing for Jacob: The LORD hath chosen Jacob unto Himself (Psalm 135:4). The writer of Hebrews referred to Esau as a profane (godless) person (Hebrews 12:16). Before their births, God knew that Esau's descendants would become enemies of Israel for generations to come and He knew Jacob was a man of integrity. God had preordained that Jacob would be in the lineage of Jesus. It's ALWAYS been about JESUS. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." By calling Jesus the Word, John emphasizes that Jesus is the revelation of God (Heb. 1:1). Yes, God is ALL-KNOWING and has SOVEREIGN authority, but He did not make Esau a profane, godless person, any more than He makes a non-believer into a believer. God gave us ALL free will to accept or reject His free gift of salvation. God will not force Himself on anyone.
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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Jacob was not an upright man, lol. His name means usurper. He tricked his brother out of his birthright by lying to him and their father Isaac. Plain in this passage compares him to Esau who has a mighty man and strong Hunter, meaning jacob was average not that he was upright.

On top of that all, your interpretation is against Paul, not me. He tells us God chose one over the other without regard to who they were or what they did. That's his argument in this entire section. Your interpretation denies Paul and turns the scripture on it's head. Sorry, but your misapplication here isn't fooling anyone

May God be the Judge
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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You again have provided no proof, no context, no exegesis, and no interpretation. Just half quotes, misapplications, and assertions. I think at this point my conclusion is proved. There is no light in you, friend. You need to repent.

May God be the Judge

Edit: I'm sad to see that in your whole quote you made no attempt to even deal with any part of all that I wrote. It isn't much of a discussion if I'm the only one contributing.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You again have provided no proof, no context, no exegesis, and no interpretation. Just half quotes, misapplications, and assertions. I think at this point my conclusion is proved. There is no light in you, friend. You need to repent.

May God be the Judge

Edit: I'm sad to see that in your whole quote you made no attempt to even deal with any part of all that I wrote. It isn't much of a discussion if I'm the only one contributing.
Your not contributing

Your trying to force you opinion into the text

I already gave proof

He spoke to Jerusalem

He said YOUR (SINGLE not PLURAL) children

If he was speaking of the children of all who lived in Herusalem, he would have use dthe PLURAL form of you,

Thus I do not have to respind to anything else. because this proves your wrong. Nothing you say can change what the word literally says.
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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One last comment. You are not quoting the verse correctly. Jesus says Jerusalem, Jerusalem....how I've wanted to gather your children and you would not. He isn't speaking to the children, he is speaking to Jerusalem. You keep saying I'm misunderstanding and that language proves I'm wrong, but you haven't even quoted the verse correctly. Shame.....

May God be the Judge
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
150
35
28
Your not contributing

Your trying to force you opinion into the text

I already gave proof

He spoke to Jerusalem

He said YOUR (SINGLE not PLURAL) children

If he was speaking of the children of all who lived in Herusalem, he would have use dthe PLURAL form of you,

Thus I do not have to respind to anything else. because this proves your wrong. Nothing you say can change what the word literally says.
You're not hearing me at all. Of course the your is singular, Jerusalem is a singular city. So let's interpret this sentence. Christ desires to gather the children of Jerusalem but they (Jerusalem) did not want that. It's plain and simple. This verse isn't about people's free will rejection of Jesus, it's a judgement on Jerusalem for trying to stop his ministry. You still have made no attempt to respond to what I've said, or to put out your own interpretation of this passage in context. You just keep repeating your non answer. You can say all you like that you don't have to, but anyone reading this sees my contribution band your lack of an attempt. Saying I haven't contributed doesn't make it so and saying you don't have to respond is an admission of defeat. Please repent friend. Christ alone is the sovereign savior

May God be the Judge
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You're not hearing me at all. Of course the your is singular, Jerusalem is a singular city. So let's interpret this sentence. Christ desires to gather the children of Jerusalem but they (Jerusalem) did not want that.
See, this is how you misrepresent that which is being said.

What is said is Jesus wanted to draw the children of Jerusalem under his wing but they (the children of jerusalem) were not willing (the plural word is used here, Not singular.)





It's plain and simple. This verse isn't about people's free will rejection of Jesus, it's a judgement on Jerusalem for trying to stop his ministry. You still have made no attempt to respond to what I've said, or to put out your own interpretation of this passage in context. You just keep repeating your non answer. You can say all you like that you don't have to, but anyone reading this sees my contribution band your lack of an attempt. Saying I haven't contributed doesn't make it so and saying you don't have to respond is an admission of defeat. Please repent friend. Christ alone is the sovereign savior

May God be the Judge
Whats plain and simple is you are not reading the text right.

And please stop with your repent nonsense, I repented 0ver 40 years ago and was made a child of God at that time.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
One last comment. You are not quoting the verse correctly. Jesus says Jerusalem, Jerusalem....how I've wanted to gather your children and you would not. He isn't speaking to the children, he is speaking to Jerusalem. You keep saying I'm misunderstanding and that language proves I'm wrong, but you haven't even quoted the verse correctly. Shame.....

May God be the Judge
Again, You missing th epoint

He says jerusalem jerusalem/ How often I wanted to gather your (jerusalems) children, but you (the children) were not willing.

The origional text uses a singular form for who the children belonged to. And a plural form for who was not willing.

 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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Let's review my first post on this thread:



I'm just defending my point of view (in bold letters); I'm not pointing my finger at anyone.
Nor am I, I only state what I think God is telling us.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Looks like a good place to insert a portion of this article I've posted before:

[quoting]

Paul Wilson - [Source: Biblecentre, link below]

The Two Goats Of Leviticus 16

The "limited atonement" doctrine is built upon a premise that lacks understanding of the two views of the cross of Christ as regards His work, that is, propitiation and substitution. The types used on the day of atonement in Leviticus 16 are set aside in deference to a theory, a doctrine of men (be they good men or bad is not the point). On that memorable day, which occurred once a year in Israel's history, there were, among other similitudes two goats - one called the Lord's lot, and the other the people's. The goat of the Lord's lot was killed and its blood taken inside of the veil by the high priest, where he sprinkled the blood once upon the mercy seat and seven times on the desert sand before it. It was there above the mercy seat that God dwelt among the people, and as they were sinners He must needs have the evidence of death presented before Him - the blood was sprinkled there. This was propitiation - a satisfaction rendered to God whereby He could act in grace toward a sinful people. On the head of the other goat, the sins of the people were confessed by the high priest, and it was led into a land not inhabited, so that their sins were removed. This was substitution.
In a sense, both goats are one in the matter of sin - the one being slain and its blood presented before God, and the other bearing the sins away to be remembered no more - for without the blood of the one goat there could be no bearing away of sins on the other. Let us notice the words of another:

Denial Of Substitution

"There is a continual tendency in the different classes, even of believers in Christendom, to ignore one or other of these truths. Take for instance those zealous that the gospel go out to every creature. It is notorious that most of these deny God's special favor to the elect. They overlook or pare down any positive difference on God's part toward His own children. They hold that a man throughout his course may be a child of God today and not tomorrow. This destroys substitution [seen in the live goat led away]. They hold propitiation [seen in the blood of the other goat as presented before God], and there they are right, and quite justified in preaching the gospel unrestrictedly to every creature, as the Lord indeed enjoined, But how their one-sidedness enfeebles the proper portion of the saints!

Denial Of Propitiation

"But look for a moment at the opposite side [Mr. Pink's], which holds that all God has done and reveals is in view of the elect only, and that all He has wrought in Christ Jesus is in effect for the Church, and that He does not care about the world, except to judge it at the last day. This may be put rather bluntly, for I do not present such grievous narrowness toward man and dishonor of God and His Son in as polished terms as those might desire who cherish notions so unsavory and unsound. But it is true that a certain respectable class around us do see nothing but the elect as the object of God. Their doctrine supposes only the second goat, or the people's lot. They see the all-importance of substitution, but Jehovah's lot has no place as distinct.

--Paul Wilson, [starting at heading called] The Two Goats of Leviticus 16

http://biblecentre.org/content.php?mode=7&item=892

[end quoting; more at link]
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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Genesis 25:27 tells us that Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; but Jacob was plain man, dwelling in tents. The Hebrew word for "plain" is the same word translated in other Scripture as perfect, upright, undefiled. So the word plain refers to Jacob's character as a man of God. God records His highest praise and blessing for Jacob: The LORD hath chosen Jacob unto Himself (Psalm 135:4). The writer of Hebrews referred to Esau as a profane (godless) person (Hebrews 12:16). Before their births, God knew that Esau's descendants would become enemies of Israel for generations to come and He knew Jacob was a man of integrity. God had preordained that Jacob would be in the lineage of Jesus. It's ALWAYS been about JESUS. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." By calling Jesus the Word, John emphasizes that Jesus is the revelation of God (Heb. 1:1). Yes, God is ALL-KNOWING and has SOVEREIGN authority, but He did not make Esau a profane, godless person, any more than He makes a non-believer into a believer. God gave us ALL free will to accept or reject His free gift of salvation. God will not force Himself on anyone.
Jesus died as a sacrifice to God, for God's acceptance, and not to man for man's acceptance. God gave mankind a freedom to choose how man wants to live his life here on earth, but man's eternal salvation is by God's sovereign choice and not man's choice.
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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Wow. The fact that you cannot see that as bad Grammer is really sad yo me. No one switches subjects midsentence and Jesus certainly doesn't do it here. That reading makes Jesus' statement (especially in light of his entire dialogue here) make zero sense. I'm glad you posted it so everyone can see it's flaws word for word. This discussion is over, you've shown clearly who is exegeting correctly and who is not. I am commanded to call all to repentance, so I say again repent. Come out of your man centered free will gospel to the light that is Christ. Love you, friend. Hope you will reread all this and see.

May God be the Judge