Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him

Ahwatukee · Apr 1, 2019

“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.” (NIV)

The scripture above is one of those highly controversial and misinterpreted scriptures which has led many to the belief that the coming of the Lord and our being gathered together to Him, as taking place during the day of the Lord when the apostasy takes place and after the man of lawlessness is revealed. While others believe that the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him (rapture) takes place prior to the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness. The purpose of this teaching is in support the latter.

The main reasons for the confusion and the misinterpretation are three fold:

1). The coming of our Lord and our being gathered together to Him

2). Not to become easily unsettled or alarmed

3). The Day of the Lord

Paul begins with “concerning the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him.” Then in verse 2 he segues referring to “the day of the Lord has already come.” As I said, this is apart of the problem in that, those who are reading the scripture are not recognizing Paul’s segue from the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him vs. the day of the Lord, which follows. Though they are in close proximity to one another, they are in fact two separate events.

The “coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him” is a blessed event when the dead in Christ are raised and when the living in Christ will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. In opposition, everywhere that we read about the “the day of the Lord” it is described as a time of wrath and fierce anger, a day of distress and anguish, of trouble and ruin, of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. The first one that Paul mentions is a blessed event. While the second event, “the day of the Lord” will be the worst time in the history of the world. Which one of these events do you think Paul was attempting to comfort the Thessalonians about?

Therefore, the “coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him” vs. “the day of the Lord,” are closely related, yet two different events. In fact, the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him is what kicks off the day of the Lord. That is, once the Lord appears to gather the church, the day of the Lord follows, which is the time of God’s wrath. “That day will close on them like a trap and they will not escape.

So getting back to what I previously wrote, the error is not recognizing the difference between the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him vs. the day of the Lord which follows.

In support of this, I submit to you reason number 2, which is “to not to be easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching that the day of the Lord has already come.” In saying this, Paul is attempting to assure and comfort the Thessalonians and all believers that the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, has not yet come. However, if we read the scripture as some are interpreting it, i.e. the coming of our Lord and our being gathered together to Him as being synonymous with the day of the Lord, then they interpret the scripture in the following manner and I paraphrase:

“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.” (NIV)

This is how they are reading and interpreting it, which is the cause of the confusion and misinterpretation.

Now getting back to the support I spoke of, notice that Paul is attempting to assure and comfort the Thessalonians. Well, if Paul was telling them that the coming of the Lord and our being gathered together to Him will not take place until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed and I will insert the wrath of God, then those would not be words of comfort and assurance, but would rather cause the Thessalonians reason for being unsettled and alarmed, because Paul would be telling them that the Lord is not coming to gather them until after the apostasy and after the man of lawlessness is revealed and during the time of God’s wrath. Therefore, Paul’s words of comfort would be in vain if that is what he was telling them.

In conclusion, it is a simple matter of recognizing Paul’s segue from “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him vs. the day of the Lord. The Lord’s coming and our being gathered to Him is an event which takes place first, with the day of the Lord to follow. It is the day of the Lord, the time of God’s wrath, which Paul is reassuring the Thessalonians hasn’t begun yet. Below then is the chronological order of this scripture:

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him
The day of the Lord, which follows and is the time when the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness and when the time of God’s wrath takes place, which time period Paul is assuring the Thessalonians had not yet come.

oyster67 · Apr 1, 2019

It is so wonderful and refreshing to see how the same Spirit has led us to the same understanding.

Ahwatukee · Apr 2, 2019

oyster67 said:

Amen!

Absolutely · Apr 2, 2019

Are you saying the ac will not be revealed until after the rapture?

I don't think it matters because the ac can be revealed and just in place with no wrath at first,and the rapture happen 2 months later.
It would still be a pretrib rapture

Absolutely · Apr 2, 2019

We could all be arrested,detained in some huge open air compound,and be raptured out of that facility and it would still be pretrib

Absolutely · Apr 2, 2019

In fact,it just hit me,the 10 virgin parable is that scenario.

Ahwatukee · Apr 2, 2019

Absolutely said:

Good day, Absolutely! And in answer to your question, absolutely!

If you will notice in 2 Thess.2:5 Paul says "Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And we see his teaching about the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him, found in 1 Thess.4:13-17. Therefore, the Thessalonians knew the teaching, not only from Paul's letter, but he taught them in person about how the Lord was going to come and gather the church which would then be followed by the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. Based on Paul's letter to them, there were obviously some false teachers there in Thessalonica who were teaching that the day of the Lord had already begun, which would have been devastating news to the Thessalonians, because Paul had taught them that the Lord would come first and gather His church and then the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, would begin. Therefore, if it was true that the day of the Lord had begun, it would mean that they missed the gathering and they only had the wrath of God to look forward to. The purpose of their letter was to go to the source, which was Paul and find out the truth of what those false teachers were saying. And Paul comforts them letting them know that the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, would not come until the apostasy had taken place and that man of lawlessness had been revealed. And since none of those things were present, nor had the Lord come to gather His church, then they could be assured that they had not missed the blessed hope, the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him.

The very fact that Paul responded back to them by letter should have been proof enough to the Thessalonians that the Lord had not yet come to gather His church, because he wouldn't be here to respond to them.

As I said in the original post, the key to understanding this, is recognizing Paul's change from "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him" to his mention of "the day of the Lord" in verse 2, which though closely related, are two separate events. The gathering of the church ushers in the day of the Lord, i.e. once the church is gather, the day of the Lord follows.

The other key is discerning Paul's words of comfort to the Thessalonians. He is comforting them by reassuring them that the "day of the Lord" has not yet come. Suffice to say, it would be no comfort to the Thessalonians if Paul was telling them that the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him would not take place until after the apostasy and the man of lawlessness was revealed, which is during the time of God's wrath. If anything, it would be comfirming their worst fears.

Scripture states over and over in so many words, that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, neither here on earth, not from condemning judgment at the great white throne.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all make up the wrath of God, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will bring upon the earth. The first seal rider on the white horse is representing the revealing of the antichrist who goes out to conquer and make war. Revelation 4:1-2 is what I call a prophetic allusion to where the church is caught up, with John representing the church. In support of this, though the word "church" is used 18 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3, we never see the word church again after Rev.4:1-2 and that because this is where the church is caught up. The next time we see the word church used again is in Rev.22:16, which is at the end of the book. All that said, it then demonstrates that the church is removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath. Believers will never even see the antichrist, because they will be removed before He is revealed.

Lanolin · Apr 2, 2019

OP you post doesnt make sense because
I dont have NIV bit I do read KJV and it does say 'the day of Christ is at hand' which may mean the same as 'day of the Lord' but reading further down its been withheld. And then verse 8 says the wicked will be destroyed with the brightness of his coming.

! OP you totally ignored verse 8!

Its not inconceivable that it will happen on the same day, that Jesus has to destroy the wicked one FIRST (beast and false prophet) before gathering up his saints. Operative word FIRST, which is absent from the NIV

Check it out,

Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So, if you read the NIV it seems to say what you want it to say, that everything is 'pre-trib' and you deliberately ignore certain verses but, if you read the KJV, one cannot come to that conclusion.

Read 2 Thessalonians 1-10 esp look at

9 Even him whos coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

After!! The coming is after! Why is Jesus coming, yes to gather his saints but also to destroy the wicked one! Does he tell us this, yes just the same way he sets the captives free, he binds the strong man first!

This does not mean we believers are appointed to wrath! It just means Jesus has some unfinished business to take care of FIRST which is DESTROYING the wicked one.

I dont mean to be disagreeable, but just want to put forth that, on reading the entire passage, one cant make it fit a pre-determined pre-trib doctrine, unless you skip key verses, and do a whole lot of scriptural gymnastics. Why? Well some peoole want to boast and say hey look, no hands! Perhaps. Everywhere else in scripture, Jesus always says hes coming after tribulation...after, after, after! Not before. You want to be early? Thats a human desire sure, nobody likes tribulation. But then that would be like saying Jesus was raised before he even went to the cross. Hes going to defeat the enemy first silly.

Melach · Apr 2, 2019

Jesus bless this man for taking the time to deliver to us what is in his heart. amen.

what about the wheat and weeds parable? it says they grow together until the end of the world, then angels take out the wicked and the righteous remain.

Ahwatukee · Apr 2, 2019

Lanolin said:

Hello Lanolin,

I have not ignored verse. I just did not comment on it. Below is verse 5 thru 8

"Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival. "

So Paul reminds the Thessalonians that he told him about these things while he was with them in person. So let's break down the scripture. The man of lawlessness and the full force of sin, is currently being restrained until it is time for him to be revealed. The restrainer is none other than the Holy Spirit. When it is time for the man of lawlessness/antichrist to be revealed, then the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way, i.e. He will no longer be restraining the antichrist. When Holy Spirit as the restrainer is taken out of the way, then all believers who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit must also be taken out of the way i.e. the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him.

Though the letter was written to the Thessalonians, since neither has the Lord come to gather His church, nor has the apostasy nor the man of lawlessness been revealed, then the information regarding the man of lawless is to every generation up until he is revealed. Therefore, in answer to your question regarding verse 8, Paul speaking about when that man of lawlessness is revealed and when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, He will destroy him by the brightness of His coming by casting both the man of lawlessness/antichrist and the false prophet, alive into the lake of fire according to Rev.19:20.

In short, what Paul told the Thessalonians in regards to the revealing of the man of lawlessness hasn't happened yet, even for us at this present time. Therefore, those events are still future.

According to 1 Thess.4:16j, the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are alive in Christ will be changed and caught up with them. Then the apostasy will occur and the man of lawlessness will be revealed and the time of God's wrath will begin, also called "the day of the Lord." It is the "day of the Lord" that Paul was reassuring the Thessalonians that had no happened yet and not the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him.

Your on-gong error, is not recognizing the difference between the Lord's appearing to gather the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. These are two completely different events. The gathering of the church takes place prior to the revealing of the man of lawlessness and God's wrath, where the Lord's return to the earth to end the age takes place after the revealing of the man of lawlessness and after God's wrath has completed.

oyster67 · Apr 2, 2019

Melach said:

Matthew 13
13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

1.) What do the Wheat and Tares represent?
2.) What we do with the Tares?

Melach · Apr 2, 2019

oyster67 said:

Matthew 13
13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

1.) What do the Wheat and Tares represent?
2.) What we do with the Tares?

1. i believe it represents people of God and people of devil
2. tares are gathered and burned.

is this right?

oyster67 · Apr 2, 2019

Melach said:

I have been taught that wheats represent good people in the Church and tares represent false teachers amongst them. We are not to declare a witch hunt, but to let God take care of them. We should focus on feeding the sheep. As for applying this to end time prophecy, I don't know.

oyster67 · Apr 2, 2019

13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

In the end they shall be gathered, but not by us.

Nehemiah6 · Apr 2, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Yes, this Scripture is seriously misrepresented and misunderstood. As a result there is a tremendous about of confusion about the sequence of events. However, when all the Scriptures and prophecies are taken into account, what Paul is saying is that the Thessalonians have been unnecessary alarmed by some, who have asserted that the Rapture had already occurred. He is saying that that is patently false.

However, before we look at the sequence, it needs to be emphasized that the King James Bible, Webster's Translation, World English Bible and Young's Literal Translation are the only English language translations which have "the Day of Christ" rather than "the Day of the Lord (LORD)". That is because the Byzantine Text and the Received Text (Textus Receptus) have this correctly stated as ἡμέρα τοῦ Χριστοῦ NOT ἡμέρα τοῦ Κυρίου (as in the critical texts). The Day of Christ = the day of the Rapture, whereas the Day of the Lord = the Great Tribulation. So the sequence of events is:

1. The Great Apostasy or Falling Away in Christendom (as we see currently)
2. The Day of Christ (the Rapture)
3. The Revelation of the Antichrist (the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition)
4. The reign of the Antichrist
5. The Abomination of Desolation
6. The Great Tribulation (the Day of the LORD)
7. The shaking of the heavens and the earth (cataclysmic cosmic events)
8. The Second Coming of Christ

Absolutely · Apr 2, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Good day, Absolutely! And in answer to your question, absolutely!

If you will notice in 2 Thess.2:5 Paul says "Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And we see his teaching about the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him, found in 1 Thess.4:13-17. Therefore, the Thessalonians knew the teaching, not only from Paul's letter, but he taught them in person about how the Lord was going to come and gather the church which would then be followed by the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. Based on Paul's letter to them, there were obviously some false teachers there in Thessalonica who were teaching that the day of the Lord had already begun, which would have been devastating news to the Thessalonians, because Paul had taught them that the Lord would come first and gather His church and then the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, would begin. Therefore, if it was true that the day of the Lord had begun, it would mean that they missed the gathering and they only had the wrath of God to look forward to. The purpose of their letter was to go to the source, which was Paul and find out the truth of what those false teachers were saying. And Paul comforts them letting them know that the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, would not come until the apostasy had taken place and that man of lawlessness had been revealed. And since none of those things were present, nor had the Lord come to gather His church, then they could be assured that they had not missed the blessed hope, the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him.

The very fact that Paul responded back to them by letter should have been proof enough to the Thessalonians that the Lord had not yet come to gather His church, because he wouldn't be here to respond to them.

As I said in the original post, the key to understanding this, is recognizing Paul's change from "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him" to his mention of "the day of the Lord" in verse 2, which though closely related, are two separate events. The gathering of the church ushers in the day of the Lord, i.e. once the church is gather, the day of the Lord follows.

The other key is discerning Paul's words of comfort to the Thessalonians. He is comforting them by reassuring them that the "day of the Lord" has not yet come. Suffice to say, it would be no comfort to the Thessalonians if Paul was telling them that the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him would not take place until after the apostasy and the man of lawlessness was revealed, which is during the time of God's wrath. If anything, it would be comfirming their worst fears.

Scripture states over and over in so many words, that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, neither here on earth, not from condemning judgment at the great white throne.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all make up the wrath of God, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will bring upon the earth. The first seal rider on the white horse is representing the revealing of the antichrist who goes out to conquer and make war. Revelation 4:1-2 is what I call a prophetic allusion to where the church is caught up, with John representing the church. In support of this, though the word "church" is used 18 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3, we never see the word church again after Rev.4:1-2 and that because this is where the church is caught up. The next time we see the word church used again is in Rev.22:16, which is at the end of the book. All that said, it then demonstrates that the church is removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath. Believers will never even see the antichrist, because they will be removed before He is revealed.

Not even those left behind see the wrath. They get beheaded and are seen in heaven as an innumerable number.
I dont think the Thessalonians believed they were in the wrath of God.
I believe they thought they missed the rapture.
Any other scenario puts christians in the wrath.
So not even those missing the rapture go through the wrath. They are martyred as others before them by the devil.

Absolutely · Apr 2, 2019

oyster67 said:

13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

In the end they shall be gathered, but not by us.

Actually Jesus explains what each component is.

oyster67 · Apr 2, 2019

Getting ones head chopped off certainly doesn't sound like a blessing.

oyster67 · Apr 2, 2019

Absolutely said:

13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

oldethennew · Apr 2, 2019

the 'wheat and the tares' while they are growing, look identical -
the 'lesson' is, to 'beware of wolves in sheep's clothing' -
for the counterfeit shall be many, and the 'true' shall be 'few'...
as it is written;
LUKE 12:32.
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you The Kingdom.

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him

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