Not By Works

[Argueless]

Like Judas Iscariot. As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html

LET GOD BE TRUE and YOUR SLANDER is noted, as you continue to sow seeds of doubt and deception.

You are the master of IRONY.

*Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Keep yourselves in the love of God is supplemented with three participles of means in the original, which answers the question, "How does one keep himself in the love of God?" By building yourselves up in your most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. The word "keep" means to attend to carefully, take care of, guard. I don't see a "lose your salvation" warning in this exhortation to believers.

*Ultimately, God promises to keep/preserve His saints (Psalm 37:28; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1:1).

*Jude 1:24 - Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy. Praise God!

Notice what I bolded above and what James is actually saying below after considering the CONTEXT and IN HARMONY with what Paul is saying.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled (James 2:23) the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. *The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So for the umpteenth time, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *PERFECT HARMONY*

Ok since you want to be the authority in interpreting the scriptures using the MAN MADE OSAS LENS then maybe you could represent dcon who refuses to give his stance about lying to the Holy Spirit using the scriptures to prove your point and every OSAS followers point as a whole. And if everyone was saved the very moment they believed, can you show me scriptures that say that believers do not need to wait for Jesus to come a second time to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him, to be sanctified, purified, perfected, resurrected, glorified etc...because ONCE you are SAVED, you are ALWAYS SAVED?

What's wrong with this verse below according to OSAS?

...But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Thanks and God bless.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

False and like many other you peddle James out of context......faith plus work for --> false with no power to save, double cursed, fools teach it and bewitched believe it....Galatians...

Saved FOR not BY

The many peddle whay you peddle...good luck with that....I suggest the following word....

CONTEXT

And YES....WORKS HAVE ZERO to do with being saved pal!!

Lawless men deny Gods will and His ways.

Do you desire to walk in Gods will and His ways or just follow your own?

 

[UnderGrace]

Lawless men deny Gods will and His ways.

Do you desire to walk in Gods will and His ways or just follow your own?

I was rather thinking the same thing of you

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I was rather thinking the same thing of you

Gods ways are listed in the sermon on the mount, and His will is expressed in loving all
we come across, through prayer and service.

Is this what you were thinking about?

 

[oldethennew]

when we are freed from our worldly 'guilt' which will take us quite
a few days of Holy refining, we will come to a quiet place of rest
and respite from the wickedness that we abided in, in our
past living experiences while surviving in the world
before our conversion - we will come to realize
and learn how to live our 'new lives' in Christ -
not a small under-taking/challenge, (life-long) race...
'And the peace of God which passes all understanding,
shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.'

 

[FollowHisSteps]

The problem I find is people with closed hearts face a contradiction, nothing they do
comes from their hearts it is just from their minds, so it is all based on the evil desires
which dominate, and their selfish ambitions, which intend to defend their lifestyle no
matter how sinful it might be.

And the excuse of their consciences and emotions that tell them things are wrong, is
this is ok because it is saying they need Jesus all the more, rather than driving them
to repentance

 

[star]

Personal salvation?

...For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Ephesians 5:23

I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 2 Corinthians 11:2-4

...These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40

...Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

Anyone who believes that salvation can be lost once received, are preaching a false teaching. There is only one way to salvation. That salvation, once attained, is sealed forever by the power of the HS and the promise of God Almighty

 

[star]

Amen.....many will say....Lord, Lord have we not done x, y, z in your name.....He never knew them, they were never saved though the believed they were.....!!!

That means all their work was for naught. What a disappointment that will be.

 

[dcontroversal]

That means all their work was for naught. What a disappointment that will be.

Amen I agree....Jesus was clear.....the number is PLENTEOUS that come before his throne claiming him as Lord and a right to enter based upon the works they have done in his name.....this is FAITH PLUS WORKS FOR....and the same drivel that EVERYBODY in this thread that argues against salvation by faith alone peddles......FAITH ALONE is what saves a man....ANYTHING BEYOND THAT is the result of the FAITH AND SALVATION one already possesses in Christ.........Paul was clear....those that peddle faith as the beginning point and finished by works are false teachers and ALL that believe it are fools and bewitched.....

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Anyone who believes that salvation can be lost once received, are preaching a false teaching. There is only one way to salvation. That salvation, once attained, is sealed forever by the power of the HS and the promise of God Almighty

It is true that when we are changed we have communion with Jesus, through faith and repentance.
What is also plain is some claim they know Jesus yet have not repentented or have faith in the forgiveness
of sins or in walking in His ways or loving others.

So is it helpful to tell those who have a name yet not the power they are saved eternally, while still staying
lost and in darkness? What is clear is the darkness are the evil desires of the heart, and living in Christ is walking in
the fruit of the Spirit. So if we still walk in darkness how can we have known cleansing and the Holy Spirit.

Then to put on top of this confusion to say those who see people walk away, deny that which they appear to previously
hold dear, is false and empty, and summarise this as losing ones faith, is not unreasonable.

A clear way through is to emphasise reaching out to Jesus, confessing and walking in His ways demonstrates the work
He has done in us, is a good way through.

Sadly some take lawlessness as a badge of honour, and want to turn those who desire to follow Jesus into
enemies, suggests that in reality these folk do not have a heart to know Jesus's ways or His heart. And it is this
that suggests His sheep would never speak against His way or His words.

 

[dcontroversal]

Or perhaps another banned former member has returned?

I get that feeling as well........

 

[dcontroversal]

Sugar coated double talk and you have it backwards. Works are not possible without faith. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Christ is the actual means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we receive salvation. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) By saying that works are a "part" of faith, you are teaching salvation by faith + works.

Amen.....As simple as........those that claim their works helps save them or keep them saved must not be saved...I say this because last time I checked a genuine saved child of God has works produced through them BY JESUS not themselves......exactly why works do not save or keep saved......Christ works through those that are ALREADY SAVED and being utilized as LIVING SACRIFICES....KEY WORD --->LIVING which indicates ALREADY BEING ALIVE!!

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Faith and works

Faith is the knowledge and understanding works is the demonstration of this knowledge.
It is both in good works and words confessed.

Denying this is like saying a translator of languages is a translator because they claim to
understand the language but cannot show any meaning or proof of translation.

The reason one is a translator is to translate. If one does not translate for others, one is not
a translator. So a believer may believe but this is not faith until it is confessed and acted on.

The only reason people claim this idea, that faith does not have to show itself, is because then
you can lose it all and it is still real before God. But if something is real, then it cannot be denied,
and if something has taken place, people will not give it up.

So put simply those who walk away, do not know the reality of that which they claimed to understand.
And those who stay true, have grasped the reality of who Christ is and what it means, Amen.

 

[oldethennew]

DC, there's NO ARGUMENT here - Christ tells us in Matthew that 'works determine our POSITION in God's Kingdom -
MATT. 5:19-20
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in The Kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in The Kingdom of Heaven.
20.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees,
you shall in no case enter into The Kingdom of Heaven.

EPH. 2:8-9-10.
For by grace are ye saved through Faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.

MATT. 16:27.
For The Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward
every man according to his works.

DC, again, there is NO ARGUMENT here, we all have to put 'salvation and works' in the 'correct perspective',
and then we each must decide what our 'works' will bear 'witness to', according to The Will of God'...

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Sugar coated double talk and you have it backwards. Works are not possible without faith. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Christ is the actual means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we receive salvation. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) By saying that works are a "part" of faith, you are teaching salvation by faith + works.

This "sugar coated double talk" is used as a phrase to deny love is the core of our walk with Jesus.
Love speaks to our hearts and flows from us, because our hearts and open and Gods word dwells
within.

Those who oppose such a notion, can do nothing else, because love is locked away in them, and they
do not see love being critical to Jesus and our life, rather an odd emotion that appears disconnected
to the facts of faith. Unless they open their hearts and repent then nothing will progress and the words
fall into their right place. Praise God that He has set us free and brought us into His Kingdom to shine
as lights in this dark world.

 

[Argueless]

Anyone who believes that salvation can be lost once received, are preaching a false teaching. There is only one way to salvation. That salvation, once attained, is sealed forever by the power of the HS and the promise of God Almighty

If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 1 Timothy 6:3-5

...The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:10-13

...Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:4-6

...I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 2 Corinthians 11:2-4

If you are a FREE bird on God's hand, will He let you go if you wish to fly away? Does God put us in cages and put chains on us like prisoners so that we could not escape Him? Isn't it that the bird that Noah sent out did not return after another seven days when it returned with a leaf on it's beak? (Genesis 8:8-12)...WHY?

...To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH, and THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE” They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?” Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, YOU WILL BE FREE INDEED” John 8:31-38

...What then? SHALL WE SIN BECAUSE WE ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER SIN? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, YOU ARE SLAVES TO THE ONE WHOM YOU OBEY—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to OBEDIENCE, WHICH LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly OBEYED the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been SET FREE FROM SIN and have become slaves to righteousness. I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to RIGHTEOUSNESS LEADING TO HOLINESS. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been SET FREE FROM SIN and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap LEADS TO HOLINESS, and THE RESULT IS ETERNAL LIFE. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:15-23 Slaves to Righteousness

...LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

 

[dcontroversal]

It's "nominal" Christians who misinterpret "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20) to mean that we are saved by BOTH faith AND works, in contradiction to scripture (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..) and fail to properly harmonize scripture with scripture.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* We show our faith by our works (James 2:18) yet faith is established and we are made alive together with Christ the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation prior to producing good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Works-salvationists re-define faith to "include" works and end up trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith. Here is an example below from a statement made by a Roman Catholic who I was once in a discussion with:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

At first, this Roman Catholic told me that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contradicted himself by making that statement above. His sugar coated double talk equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.

Romans 4:5 Is clear and absolutely proves that works have no bearing on salvation........

 

[dcontroversal]

DC, there's NO ARGUMENT here - Christ tells us in Matthew that 'works determine our POSITION in God's Kingdom -
MATT. 5:19-20
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in The Kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in The Kingdom of Heaven.
20.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees,
you shall in no case enter into The Kingdom of Heaven.

EPH. 2:8-9-10.
For by grace are ye saved through Faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.

MATT. 16:27.
For The Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward
every man according to his works.

DC, again, there is NO ARGUMENT here, we all have to put 'salvation and works' in the 'correct perspective',
and then we each must decide what our 'works' will bear 'witness to', according to The Will of God'...

I have the right perspective.....and those that tie works to salvation to gain are keep are the ones lacking a biblical perspective......Everything you have said I have consistently said the 5 years and 5 months I have been here...The following verse should be the nail in the coffin of works for or to keep salvation and yet the religionists, Cainologists and workers for STILL PEDDLE the same belief that leads to tne MANY GROUPING that Jesus identifies....

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness

 

[gb9]

This "sugar coated double talk" is used as a phrase to deny love is the core of our walk with Jesus.
Love speaks to our hearts and flows from us, because our hearts and open and Gods word dwells
within.

Those who oppose such a notion, can do nothing else, because love is locked away in them, and they
do not see love being critical to Jesus and our life, rather an odd emotion that appears disconnected
to the facts of faith. Unless they open their hearts and repent then nothing will progress and the words
fall into their right place. Praise God that He has set us free and brought us into His Kingdom to shine
as lights in this dark world.

you mean disconnected like someone who called the greek language that the N.T . was written in a " philosophy "?

disconnected like that ?

 

[dcontroversal]

i just want to know the truth Lord.

to make it simple would it be right to say: those who are in Christ are saved, those outside of Christ are unsaved.

what this topic is seeming to of is can we leave "in Christ" status?

there are many verses that say Jesus will never cast us out and He is author and finisher of faith but also is verses saying israel was cut off due to unbelief be careful or else you will be cut off too if you dont believe.

is there any balance here?

Israel was cut off because they were UNDER THE LAW and the blessings of that covenant were CONDITIONAL and based upon obedience. The old covenant pointed to CHRIST AND ESTABLISHED THE GUILT OF MAN AND HIS UTTER INABILITY TO MEET THE RIGHTEOUS STANDARD OF GOD REQUIRED UNDER THE LAW AND FULLY POINTED TO THE NEW COVENANT WHICH IS based upon grace and mercy.

We cannot forget that in part, and only temporarily, Israel was cut off so SALVATION CAN COME TO THE GENTILES.....and under the new way the following is absolutely true...

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness