Not By Works
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You are almost correct, however SALVATION happened before the beginning of time.
2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
After we have received SALVATION the Holy Spirit in us poured GOD's LOVE in our Hearts (human spirit).
That Love in our Hearts is Like SEED, that sprouts, producing the same kind of Fruit as the original SEED.
The NEW BORN AGAIN HUMAN SPIRIT begins to grow as you feed on the WORD. THEN and only then, will it PRODUCE FRUIT.
Therefore it is NOT PART OF OUR SALVATION, but however it is PART OF OUR LOVE THAT GOD POURED INTO OUR HEARTS (HUMAN SPIRIT) THE MOMENT WE RECEIVED SALVATION and the FAITH that comes with it, Rom. 5:5.
You want to see if I am really SAVED, then you look for the LOVE, because ONLY TRUE CHRISTIANS will LOVE GOD, Christ, and fellow true believers, after we are SAVED.
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I agree, but I realized people who love to trumpet that James verse, tend not to acknowledge that. 
AND THEY NEVER START WITH JAMES 2:9-10, or even mention it.
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False and like many other you peddle James out of context......faith plus work for --> false with no power to save, double cursed, fools teach it and bewitched believe it....Galatians...
Saved FOR not BY
The many peddle whay you peddle...good luck with that....I suggest the following word....
CONTEXT
And YES....WORKS HAVE ZERO to do with being saved pal!!
Saved FOR not BY
The many peddle whay you peddle...good luck with that....I suggest the following word....
CONTEXT
And YES....WORKS HAVE ZERO to do with being saved pal!!
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Yet again, you use a ton of words to say "salvation must be earned."
And I can use just a few to prove you wrong:
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us." (Titus 3:5)
If works cannot save us, then works cannot keep us saved. If it's by Christ's mercy that saved us, then by Christ's mercy we are kept saved.
And I can use just a few to prove you wrong:
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us." (Titus 3:5)
If works cannot save us, then works cannot keep us saved. If it's by Christ's mercy that saved us, then by Christ's mercy we are kept saved.
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Sugar coated double talk and you have it backwards. Works are not possible without faith. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Christ is the actual means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we receive salvation. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) By saying that works are a "part" of faith, you are teaching salvation by faith + works.
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It's "nominal" Christians who misinterpret "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20) to mean that we are saved by BOTH faith AND works, in contradiction to scripture (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..) and fail to properly harmonize scripture with scripture.
Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* We show our faith by our works (James 2:18) yet faith is established and we are made alive together with Christ the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation prior to producing good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
Works-salvationists re-define faith to "include" works and end up trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith. Here is an example below from a statement made by a Roman Catholic who I was once in a discussion with:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..
At first, this Roman Catholic told me that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contradicted himself by making that statement above. His sugar coated double talk equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.
Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* We show our faith by our works (James 2:18) yet faith is established and we are made alive together with Christ the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation prior to producing good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
And so on and so forth. Their definition of faith clearly includes works. But they don't want to contradict Paul so they sneak in works thru the backdoor, by relying on circular arguments.
Their definition of faith clearly includes works. But they don't want to contradict Paul so they sneak in works thru the backdoor, by relying on circular arguments.
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..
At first, this Roman Catholic told me that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contradicted himself by making that statement above. His sugar coated double talk equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.
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Sugar coated double talk and you have it backwards. Works are not possible without faith. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Christ is the actual means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we receive salvation. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) By saying that works are a "part" of faith, you are teaching salvation by faith + works.
...LET GOD BE TRUE...
If it is OK for you to lie to the Holy Spirit, it's no big deal for you to accuse, slander, insult, mock, name call and "change the grace of God into a LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY".
...But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” THESE ARE THE MEN WHO DIVIDE YOU, who follow mere natural instincts and "DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT". But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. KEEP YOURSELVES IN GOD'S LOVE as you WAIT for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ TO BRING YOU TO ETERNAL LIFE.
Jude 1:17-21
Notice the bolded above and what James is saying below...
...You see that his FAITH and his ACTIONS were WORKING TOGETHER, and his faith was made complete by what he did. As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:22,26
...You see that a person is justified by what he does and NOT BY FAITH ALONE. James 2:24
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i just want to know the truth Lord.
to make it simple would it be right to say: those who are in Christ are saved, those outside of Christ are unsaved.
what this topic is seeming to of is can we leave "in Christ" status?
there are many verses that say Jesus will never cast us out and He is author and finisher of faith but also is verses saying israel was cut off due to unbelief be careful or else you will be cut off too if you dont believe.
is there any balance here?
to make it simple would it be right to say: those who are in Christ are saved, those outside of Christ are unsaved.
what this topic is seeming to of is can we leave "in Christ" status?
there are many verses that say Jesus will never cast us out and He is author and finisher of faith but also is verses saying israel was cut off due to unbelief be careful or else you will be cut off too if you dont believe.
is there any balance here?
Like Judas Iscariot. As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html
LET GOD BE TRUE and YOUR SLANDER is noted, as you continue to sow seeds of doubt and deception.
You are the master of IRONY.
*Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
Keep yourselves in the love of God is supplemented with three participles of means in the original, which answers the question, "How does one keep himself in the love of God?" By building yourselves up in your most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. The word "keep" means to attend to carefully, take care of, guard. I don't see a "lose your salvation" warning in this exhortation to believers.
*Ultimately, God promises to keep/preserve His saints (Psalm 37:28; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1:1).
*Jude 1:24 - Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy. Praise God!
Notice what I bolded above and what James is actually saying below after considering the CONTEXT and IN HARMONY with what Paul is saying.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled (James 2:23) the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. *The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
So for the umpteenth time, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *PERFECT HARMONY*
LET GOD BE TRUE and YOUR SLANDER is noted, as you continue to sow seeds of doubt and deception.
You are the master of IRONY.
*Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
Keep yourselves in the love of God is supplemented with three participles of means in the original, which answers the question, "How does one keep himself in the love of God?" By building yourselves up in your most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. The word "keep" means to attend to carefully, take care of, guard. I don't see a "lose your salvation" warning in this exhortation to believers.
*Ultimately, God promises to keep/preserve His saints (Psalm 37:28; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1:1).
*Jude 1:24 - Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy. Praise God!
Notice what I bolded above and what James is actually saying below after considering the CONTEXT and IN HARMONY with what Paul is saying.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled (James 2:23) the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. *The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
So for the umpteenth time, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *PERFECT HARMONY*
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This for me is your interpretation of earning salvation.
I would describe this as realisation of salvation.
Those who have no realisation because God has not changed their hearts and they have
no outworking, do not know Jesus. Claiming the promises apply to them is just delusion.
It is like a catapillar that does not turn into a butterfly is dead, and not a butterfly.
It is insane to claim the butterfly that does not exist will be a butterfly because God will
make one when He appears.
The temptation of promises is to apply them because they are so good to a situation that
desperately wants something but fails to achieve it. I cannot help those who have a head
knowledge acceptance of Jesus but shut Him out of their hearts. Shutting out of Jesus is
an eternal position without any resolution possible.
I would describe this as realisation of salvation.
Those who have no realisation because God has not changed their hearts and they have
no outworking, do not know Jesus. Claiming the promises apply to them is just delusion.
It is like a catapillar that does not turn into a butterfly is dead, and not a butterfly.
It is insane to claim the butterfly that does not exist will be a butterfly because God will
make one when He appears.
The temptation of promises is to apply them because they are so good to a situation that
desperately wants something but fails to achieve it. I cannot help those who have a head
knowledge acceptance of Jesus but shut Him out of their hearts. Shutting out of Jesus is
an eternal position without any resolution possible.
If would say having faith occurs when we make a faith declaration.
Before this point it is just a thought. And we have many thoughts, most of which we just
dismiss. This is probably why Jesus said when Peter declared He would build His church on
this, He meant the faith declaration, which turned an hope into something real.
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Matthew 16:16-20
Jesus was saying the declaration was the rock, and the church is founded upon this rock, and nothing
will stand against those who hold this faith, and entrance into heaven rests here.
Before this point it is just a thought. And we have many thoughts, most of which we just
dismiss. This is probably why Jesus said when Peter declared He would build His church on
this, He meant the faith declaration, which turned an hope into something real.
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Matthew 16:16-20
Jesus was saying the declaration was the rock, and the church is founded upon this rock, and nothing
will stand against those who hold this faith, and entrance into heaven rests here.