Why I no longer believe in the penal substitution theory of the Atonement

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Budman

Budman

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#41
Mar 9, 2014
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#41
From their site:

"The Original Saints believed and taught that you MUST come clean with God in Repentance BEFORE the Holy Spirit would indwell. No one was 'Saved in sin or did any early Saint teach that man was Born in Sin. They understood that man possessed free and unhindered ability to Obey God and DO what was Right. "

Yep. Nothing but works-for-salvation/you must clean up your act before God will save you, heresy.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#42
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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#42
LW97 said:
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"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. - Colossians 2:13-15
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#43
Dec 15, 2018
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#43
I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless, I live, and the life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the son of God, who loved me and gave his life for me.

This is what Paul declared to the galatians. I am crucified with Christ...when we believe, and put our trust in Jesus...we undergo a death, we die to our selves, our old lives are buried in baptism and we rise again to new life in christ.

This is what Jesus death means to a believer. But also, dont forget that Jesus rose again and his life is given for us. If we cannot walk in the newness of the spirit, we are yet still in the flesh. This is why the flesh has to die. Now everyone does not literally die when we become christians, but symbolically, yes we do die. Our old self dies. Our spirits are made new...because the holy spirit comes to dwell in us. And this is a picture of our future resurrection.

Without the holy spirit, we are basically dead man (or women) walking...all condemned to die because of adams sin that was passed on to us. Well Jesus broke that curse and now we have access to eternal life in Him. Because our faith is in Him to raise us.
 
R

RickG

New member
#44
Dec 14, 2018
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#44
LW97 said:
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Romans 3:21-26 and Galatians 3:10-13 refutes this completely. This is just typical modern day attempts to avoid discussing the reality of hell.
 
TLC209

TLC209

Active member
#45
Mar 20, 2019
553
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#45
UnderGrace said:
Yes He never stopped being eternal, Emmanuel.....meaning "God with Us"
The divine wrapped in flesh.
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When was the devine wrapped in flesh? Scripture does not say that. That is mans interpretation and adding to the scripture. John 1:14 the Word became flesh. The Word being Gods Living Word. Became flesh. Jesus told us I am the living bread that came down from heaven. This bread is His flesh. So His flesh came from heaven and the Word became flesh. Why do preachers teach that God Almighty became wrapped in flesh? God Almighty never left the throne. It was His Word that took on life in the form of a man. We know Him as the Son of God or the Son of Man. God Almighty. Jesus spoke all that His Father taught Him. In Him was no deceit nor any sin. The Word of God is perfect and the Father is well pleased in His Word. God the Father is the source, the Word is His utterance and how He commanded everything into existance (John 1) the living word and His Holy Spirit is His Spirit that He has poured out onto His saints which are heirs with Christ. Part of Gods family children of God the Most High.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#46
Jul 24, 2016
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#46
If people do not believe in the Atonement that our LORD Jesus secured for us on the cross then they will not be recieving His Atonement and will have to pay the full penalty themselves for their own sins. Which is the second death in the eternal lake of fire..
 
LW97

LW97

Senior Member
#47
Apr 10, 2018
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#47
Budman said:
From their site:

"The Original Saints believed and taught that you MUST come clean with God in Repentance BEFORE the Holy Spirit would indwell. No one was 'Saved in sin or did any early Saint teach that man was Born in Sin. They understood that man possessed free and unhindered ability to Obey God and DO what was Right. "

Yep. Nothing but works-for-salvation/you must clean up your act before God will save you, heresy.
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I believe repentance is synergistic
 
LW97

LW97

Senior Member
#48
Apr 10, 2018
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#48
RickG said:
Romans 3:21-26 and Galatians 3:10-13 refutes this completely. This is just typical modern day attempts to avoid discussing the reality of hell.
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Does "the reality of hell" line up with God's love?
 
LW97

LW97

Senior Member
#49
Apr 10, 2018
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#49
RickG said:
Romans 3:21-26 and Galatians 3:10-13 refutes this completely. This is just typical modern day attempts to avoid discussing the reality of hell.
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Also, the passages you quoted don't refute it, since it says "sins that are past", not "past, present and future sins".
 
S

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#50
Dec 9, 2011
14,142
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#50
LW97 said:
Does "the reality of hell" line up with God's love?
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GOD loves righteousness and GOD Is ALL MIGHTY.Would GOD love righteousness when HE Is ALMIGHTY and there Is sin somewhere which Is disobedience to HIS WORD and HE Is aware of and HE allowed It to remain unpunished and undealt with?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#51
Jul 18, 2017
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#51
LW97 said:
Does "the reality of hell" line up with God's love?
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Of course it does. Since God created Hell for the devil and his angels, that was an expression of God's love for the righteous. And because the Gospel has been preached, heard, or read for over 2,000 years, no one needs to face Hell either.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#52
Jul 18, 2017
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#52
TLC209 said:
When was the devine wrapped in flesh? Scripture does not say that.
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Your whole post appears to be self-contradictory.

1. Is Jesus fully God? Absolutely. The second Person of the Trinity. The Son of God.

2. Is Jesus fully Man? Absolutely. The Word was made flesh (took a human body) and dwelt among us. The Son of Man.

So why did you ask the above question, as though this is not true?

As to the title of this thread, if there was no penal substitution, then every human being would have to pay for his own sins, and Christ's death on the cross meant nothing.
 
LW97

LW97

Senior Member
#53
Apr 10, 2018
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#53
seed_time_harvest said:
GOD loves righteousness and GOD Is ALL MIGHTY.Would GOD love righteousness when HE Is ALMIGHTY and there Is sin somewhere which Is disobedience to HIS WORD and HE Is aware of and HE allowed It to remain unpunished and undealt with?
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How is the traditional view of the lake of fire righteousness?
 
S

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#54
Dec 9, 2011
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#54
LW97 said:
How is the traditional view of the lake of fire righteousness?
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I don’t think my post gave you more than a couple of seconds pause for common sense thinking so then I’ll ask It by comparison and I pray GOD you understand:If someone were at your house and everyone knew that It was your house and they knew that you were the king of your house and they were to do something that they know that you told them not to do,If you let them do what they wanted In your house would everyone still think you were the king of your house?

GOD loves righteousness.
 
S

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#55
Dec 9, 2011
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#55
What’s righteous about hell
Answer=Nothing Is righteous about hell.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#56
Jul 18, 2017
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#56
LW97 said:
How is the traditional view of the lake of fire righteousness?
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The so-called "traditional view" is simply the biblical view. And you would not even ask such questions if you understood the absolute righteousness and holiness of God.
 
TLC209

TLC209

Active member
#57
Mar 20, 2019
553
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Merced, CA
#57
Nehemiah6 said:
Your whole post appears to be self-contradictory.

1. Is Jesus fully God? Absolutely. The second Person of the Trinity. The Son of God.

2. Is Jesus fully Man? Absolutely. The Word was made flesh (took a human body) and dwelt among us. The Son of Man.

So why did you ask the above question, as though this is not true?

As to the title of this thread, if there was no penal substitution, then every human being would have to pay for his own sins, and Christ's death on the cross meant nothing.
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Penal substitution is a lie. Its a false doctrine or what the bible refers to as doctrine of demons. If you believe all you need to do is repeat a prayer and become "saved" you been lied to. Being saved comes when we die. So how can we be living and call ourselves saved? The bible tells us the people of God shall be called Holy. So if you are not living Holy, spotless, blamess, and sumbitted to God doing Gods will then how can you call yourself "saved"? Apperently demon doctrines like penal substitution has many fooled. This is nothing new to God. God foretold us many would come in His name and decieve many. Wolves would come and rise among the sheep. So yes it is not a surprise that so many are mislead by people who claim to know Jesus. There is a hell, and it isnt just for fallen angels and demons it is a place for sinners also. Jesus Christ died for our sins to those who believe and repent. Turn from sin and carry your cross. If you heard another gospel you are mislead, and I wouldnt want to gamble with Hell.
 
S

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#58
Dec 9, 2011
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#58
TLC209 said:
Penal substitution is a lie. Its a false doctrine or what the bible refers to as doctrine of demons. If you believe all you need to do is repeat a prayer and become "saved" you been lied to. Being saved comes when we die. So how can we be living and call ourselves saved? The bible tells us the people of God shall be called Holy. So if you are not living Holy, spotless, blamess, and sumbitted to God doing Gods will then how can you call yourself "saved"? Apperently demon doctrines like penal substitution has many fooled. This is nothing new to God. God foretold us many would come in His name and decieve many. Wolves would come and rise among the sheep. So yes it is not a surprise that so many are mislead by people who claim to know Jesus. There is a hell, and it isnt just for fallen angels and demons it is a place for sinners also. Jesus Christ died for our sins to those who believe and repent. Turn from sin and carry your cross. If you heard another gospel you are mislead, and I wouldnt want to gamble with Hell.
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Its the spirit that gives life not the flesh.

GOD created our spirits perfect.

If someone Is living holy Its because the person Is trying to renew their mind to what has been done by GOD.

The thief on the cross only had to believe,Not live holy In order to be saved,ALTHOUGH a person that has been saved will seek to purify their minds even as their spirit Is pure.
 
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