Is Ultimate Release from Hell Possible?
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As far as suffering, I think it does. I believe annihilation is the end of the unrepentant.
It seems being tormented "eternally" has to do with what occured "forever" in this world, not the length of time after death.
The judgment of Gehenna appears to be one where body and soul can be annihilated.
Being imprisoned in this life is not the same as Gehenna.
The person in that passage did believe Jesus. He simply didn't walk along with the apostles. In no way was Jesus teaching someone can be saved without faith in him.
It seems being tormented "eternally" has to do with what occured "forever" in this world, not the length of time after death.
The judgment of Gehenna appears to be one where body and soul can be annihilated.
Being imprisoned in this life is not the same as Gehenna.
The person in that passage did believe Jesus. He simply didn't walk along with the apostles. In no way was Jesus teaching someone can be saved without faith in him.
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Notice again how posters need to duck the detailed arguments offered in favor of the possibility of release from Hell!
posthuman: "just to clarify, are you saying that yes, you consider yourself both qualified and morally obligated to judge God?
and if you don't like what He says, you eisegete?"
No, I'm saying that I need to respond to God's challenge: "Come, let us reason together (Isaiah 1:18)." "Ifeellike" is losing his hope because of the mindless screed about Hell propagated by posters like you. So as a Christian I'm obligated to respond to his cry for help and his need to have his hope restored: "Whenever anyone asks you to speak of your hope, be ready to defend it (1 Peter 3:15)."
It is simply inhuman or "subhuman" [Your nickname is apt!
] to claim that ordinary decent people will suffer eternal conscious torment for their oversight in failing to accept Christ for a variety of reasons in this short life.
posthuman: "Ellicott does. Benson does. Barnes does. Brown does. Poole does Jarchi does. Gill does. How many I gotta look up for you?
How many? Just one. The online commentaries you cite are neither modern nor academic.
posthuman: "But more importantly than anything else, Jesus does (Mark 9:44-46)"
Jesus chooses to use the language of Isaiah 66 which had originally had a purely seculae application and has nothing to do with Hell or eternal demnation. You just keep ducking the key point: there is no concept of Hell in the OT!
posthuman: "just to clarify, are you saying that yes, you consider yourself both qualified and morally obligated to judge God?
and if you don't like what He says, you eisegete?"
No, I'm saying that I need to respond to God's challenge: "Come, let us reason together (Isaiah 1:18)." "Ifeellike" is losing his hope because of the mindless screed about Hell propagated by posters like you. So as a Christian I'm obligated to respond to his cry for help and his need to have his hope restored: "Whenever anyone asks you to speak of your hope, be ready to defend it (1 Peter 3:15)."
It is simply inhuman or "subhuman" [Your nickname is apt!
] to claim that ordinary decent people will suffer eternal conscious torment for their oversight in failing to accept Christ for a variety of reasons in this short life.posthuman: "Ellicott does. Benson does. Barnes does. Brown does. Poole does Jarchi does. Gill does. How many I gotta look up for you?
How many? Just one. The online commentaries you cite are neither modern nor academic.
posthuman: "But more importantly than anything else, Jesus does (Mark 9:44-46)"
Jesus chooses to use the language of Isaiah 66 which had originally had a purely seculae application and has nothing to do with Hell or eternal demnation. You just keep ducking the key point: there is no concept of Hell in the OT!
No. I think it's more a distasteful disdain for someone who wants to use their own private interpretations. There are no passages that give hope to the eternally lost.
There are passages that talk about God wiping away every tear from His Children IN HEAVEN.
Revelation 21:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Why are God's Children crying in Heaven? Well, what happens right before this scene? The great white Throne Judgement where the unsaved are thrown into the Lake of Fire. We could be crying seeing unsaved friends and family destroyed, and also regret that we didn't preach the Gospel to them.
I think God is going to somehow erase the memory of those people. Perhaps this is how he will wipe away our tears.
Notice the progression of events in Isaiah: This gives a little more info as to how we are to have our tears wiped away.
Isaiah 61 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Good News of Salvation
61 “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to [a]heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
And the DAY OF VENGEANCE of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To [b]CONSOLE THOSE WHO MOURN in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.”
There are passages that talk about God wiping away every tear from His Children IN HEAVEN.
Revelation 21:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Why are God's Children crying in Heaven? Well, what happens right before this scene? The great white Throne Judgement where the unsaved are thrown into the Lake of Fire. We could be crying seeing unsaved friends and family destroyed, and also regret that we didn't preach the Gospel to them.
I think God is going to somehow erase the memory of those people. Perhaps this is how he will wipe away our tears.
Notice the progression of events in Isaiah: This gives a little more info as to how we are to have our tears wiped away.
Isaiah 61 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Good News of Salvation
61 “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to [a]heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
And the DAY OF VENGEANCE of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To [b]CONSOLE THOSE WHO MOURN in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.”
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Journeyman: "I believe annihilation is the end of the unrepentant.
Refuted by many NT texts, even by the texts now under discussion (1 Peter 3:19; 4:6; 1 Corinthians 15:28-29)
Journeyman: "Being imprisoned in this life is not the same as Gehenna."
Of course! And as I explain in detail, neither Matthew 18:34 nor Matthew 5:25-26 deal with being "Imprisoned in this life."
Journeyman: "The person in that passage (Mark 9:40) did believe Jesus. He simply didn't walk along with the apostles. In no way was Jesus teaching someone can be saved without faith in him."
He witnessed Jesus' success as an exorcist. Beyond that, he wasn't "for us" and didn't "follow" Jesus.
Refuted by many NT texts, even by the texts now under discussion (1 Peter 3:19; 4:6; 1 Corinthians 15:28-29)
Journeyman: "Being imprisoned in this life is not the same as Gehenna."
Of course! And as I explain in detail, neither Matthew 18:34 nor Matthew 5:25-26 deal with being "Imprisoned in this life."
Journeyman: "The person in that passage (Mark 9:40) did believe Jesus. He simply didn't walk along with the apostles. In no way was Jesus teaching someone can be saved without faith in him."
He witnessed Jesus' success as an exorcist. Beyond that, he wasn't "for us" and didn't "follow" Jesus.
Blasphemy of the holy spirit is unforgiveable, in this life or the next. That is the unforgivable sin, and Jesus was adamant about that. You could say all you can about Jesus the man and blaspheme him all you like, but say anything against the holy spirit, and GOd wont forgive you.
As for hells of our own making, Jesus is rescuing people all the time. But the hell that comes after one dies, sorry, no chance, ones already condemned and all those in hell will end up in the lake of fire, which is why we need to tell people about Jesus now, while they got breath in their body, and not wait till they are dead and cant hear us.
As for hells of our own making, Jesus is rescuing people all the time. But the hell that comes after one dies, sorry, no chance, ones already condemned and all those in hell will end up in the lake of fire, which is why we need to tell people about Jesus now, while they got breath in their body, and not wait till they are dead and cant hear us.
1Pet4:19 means Noah preached by the Spirit of Christ to sinners before the flood (2Pet.2:5). They're now imprisoned by death, because after deathcomes judgment, not further correction.
1Pet.4:6 means the same thing. Those who are now dead, had the gospel preaced to them while they were living, like this --->Heb.4:2, the people of Moses' day.
1Cor.15 is referring to those who baptized for "the dead", meaning Christ. They were saying there is no resurrection (1Cor.15:12-19).
Yes they do deal with being in prison in this life. Much of scripture is about being help captive while in this life. You said yourself, it isn't clear how the prisoner would be able to pay his debt. The answer is, he couldn't. The lesson is you will never be forgiven if you don't forgive others.
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mic.6:8
No My friend. He didnt walk alongside the apostles. He did believe in Jesus.
no man which shall do a miracle in my name, can lightly speak evil of me. Mk.9:39
1Pet.4:6 means the same thing. Those who are now dead, had the gospel preaced to them while they were living, like this --->Heb.4:2, the people of Moses' day.
1Cor.15 is referring to those who baptized for "the dead", meaning Christ. They were saying there is no resurrection (1Cor.15:12-19).
Yes they do deal with being in prison in this life. Much of scripture is about being help captive while in this life. You said yourself, it isn't clear how the prisoner would be able to pay his debt. The answer is, he couldn't. The lesson is you will never be forgiven if you don't forgive others.
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mic.6:8
No My friend. He didnt walk alongside the apostles. He did believe in Jesus.
no man which shall do a miracle in my name, can lightly speak evil of me. Mk.9:39
I agree with you here. This is why we see (ultimately) "the sea gave up the DEAD"... "and death and hell gave up the DEAD" when "the DEAD [this is 'the DEAD' of all times], small and great stand before God" at the GWTj (this is to receive the final sentencing: cast into the lake of fire [where the devil/Satan is [will have just been cast into], and the beast and the false prophet are [and have been for the 1000 yrs], and it says of these three "they shall be..." (and note the time-related phrase I already posted about).] See also the phrase in Rev20:6b... and then see also Matthew 25:41 "having been prepared for the devil and his angels" which pertains also to the "ye cursed" of that passage [in the judgment of the [still-living] nations at the time of His Second Coming to the earth--when they "go away into everlasting punishment"--the sentencing of it, whereas the final carrying out of it takes place at the GWTj when "the DEAD" stand before God])
If you are talking to me, my post I just made was not making the case EITHER WAY on that point (as that was not the point I was covering in that post), so I'm not sure what you are talking about.
Yes, to stand before God at the GWTj (pertaining to "the DEAD" of all times... the ones who were NOT "resurrected" with the saints, or the only ones who DIE during the MK age [having been born AND died in the MK age--that is, only the rebellious DIE in the MK, death will be much more rare, then])
Yes, to stand before God at the GWTj (pertaining to "the DEAD" of all times... the ones who were NOT "resurrected" with the saints, or the only ones who DIE during the MK age [having been born AND died in the MK age--that is, only the rebellious DIE in the MK, death will be much more rare, then])
R
The view that one will be released from the lake of fire is very humanistic. Hell is not about man but the holiness and justice of God. An infinite offense against the infinite being requires an infinite sacrifice. If no infinite payment is made to offset the infinite offense then all that remains is an infinite punishment.
Is. 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
Rev. 20:10 and following...the lake of fire burns forever and ever. It is a logical interpretation but on safe interpretive rules that if it burns forever in verse 10 it also burns forever in verse 15.
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”
Gen 6:3Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”
Gen 13:15for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever.
Gen 43:9I will be a pledge of his safety. From my hand you shall require him. If I do not bring him back to you and set him before you, then let me bear the blame forever.
Exo 3:15God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
Exo 12:14“This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast.
Exo 12:17And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever.
Exo 12:24You shall observe this rite as a statute for you and for your sons forever'
Oh look its understood as forever, everywhere its used. Pretty good reason to assume it means forever in those verses.
Is. 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
Rev. 20:10 and following...the lake of fire burns forever and ever. It is a logical interpretation but on safe interpretive rules that if it burns forever in verse 10 it also burns forever in verse 15.
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”
Oh look its understood as forever, everywhere its used. Pretty good reason to assume it means forever in those verses.
Hebrews 9:7 warns: "It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment (Hebrews 9:27)." But the question arises, "What happens after that judgment?" Let's assume that Heaven and Hell exist in a timeless realm and in that sense are eternal. That still leaves open the question, "Do any receive another opportunity to repent and grow spiritually even in Hell? The biblical answer is a resounding Yes. The texts I have so far discussed imply this hopeful claim for "Ifeelike's family and, without apology I will continue toprovide a biblical perspective that gives him hope and prevents him from losing his faith, despite the callous desire of posters who would rather feel "right" than actually meet his need. So it's time to move on from Jesus and Peter to Paul.
Paul takes for granted God’s desire to save everyone, not just the elect: “God our Savior who desires everyone to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).” This divine desire raises the question of whether God’s will can be permanently thwarted by our disobedience: "Who has resisted His will (Romans 9:20)?" Paul excludes the possibility of God abandoning His relentless pursuit of sinners in this bold declaration of divine providence: “God has imprisoned all in disobedient so that He might have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).” Here Paul considers the Fall from the perspective that it was always God’s plan to imprison us with a fallen nature that would make us disobey Him. Most Christians assume that God wanted Adam and Eve to resist the forbidden fruit, but this assumption absurdly implies that God didn’t want them to become “like God” and to become capable of discerning "good from evil (Genesis 3:22)." How, then, can God be just if our sinful nature is guaranteed by divine decree? Because God’s purpose is that all of us ultimate benefit from His mercy and grace! How tragic it is that so many Fundamentalist embrace that ghastly assumption that God stops loving and pursuing the sinner after death, thus defeating His redemptive purpose and will!
In that sense, God is not merely the potential Savior of all humanity; He is their actual Savior: “God who is the Savior of all people, especially (Greek: “malista”) of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10)” “Malista” means “especially” in the sense of “more immediately” or “more certainly,” and leaves open the potential for the ultimate salvation of all.
Similarly, Romans 11:36 seals the implied promise that God “will have mercy on all” (11:32) with an assurance of cosmic restoration: "For from Him and through Him and back to Him are all things." Cosmic reconciliation may also be implicit in the pre-Pauline hymn in Colossians 1:15-20: “…in Him [Christ] all things hold together…Through Him God was pleased to reconcile all things to Himself, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross (1:20).”
It is against this background that the pre-Pauline hymn in Phil 2:6-11 is so relevant to the possibility of postmortem opportunities for repentance and salvation. So I will discuss that hopeful text in my next planned post.
NOTE: I am not a universalist in the sense that I believe all humanity will ultimately be saved; rather, I believe that God's love will never permanently abandon sinners after death and therefore they will always have the opportunity to repent. I repeat C. S. Lewis's profound pithy maxim: "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside."
an
Paul takes for granted God’s desire to save everyone, not just the elect: “God our Savior who desires everyone to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).” This divine desire raises the question of whether God’s will can be permanently thwarted by our disobedience: "Who has resisted His will (Romans 9:20)?" Paul excludes the possibility of God abandoning His relentless pursuit of sinners in this bold declaration of divine providence: “God has imprisoned all in disobedient so that He might have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).” Here Paul considers the Fall from the perspective that it was always God’s plan to imprison us with a fallen nature that would make us disobey Him. Most Christians assume that God wanted Adam and Eve to resist the forbidden fruit, but this assumption absurdly implies that God didn’t want them to become “like God” and to become capable of discerning "good from evil (Genesis 3:22)." How, then, can God be just if our sinful nature is guaranteed by divine decree? Because God’s purpose is that all of us ultimate benefit from His mercy and grace! How tragic it is that so many Fundamentalist embrace that ghastly assumption that God stops loving and pursuing the sinner after death, thus defeating His redemptive purpose and will!
In that sense, God is not merely the potential Savior of all humanity; He is their actual Savior: “God who is the Savior of all people, especially (Greek: “malista”) of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10)” “Malista” means “especially” in the sense of “more immediately” or “more certainly,” and leaves open the potential for the ultimate salvation of all.
Similarly, Romans 11:36 seals the implied promise that God “will have mercy on all” (11:32) with an assurance of cosmic restoration: "For from Him and through Him and back to Him are all things." Cosmic reconciliation may also be implicit in the pre-Pauline hymn in Colossians 1:15-20: “…in Him [Christ] all things hold together…Through Him God was pleased to reconcile all things to Himself, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross (1:20).”
It is against this background that the pre-Pauline hymn in Phil 2:6-11 is so relevant to the possibility of postmortem opportunities for repentance and salvation. So I will discuss that hopeful text in my next planned post.
NOTE: I am not a universalist in the sense that I believe all humanity will ultimately be saved; rather, I believe that God's love will never permanently abandon sinners after death and therefore they will always have the opportunity to repent. I repeat C. S. Lewis's profound pithy maxim: "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside."
an
I don't believe I've seen a response by you regarding my Post #10 of this thread. There is a difference between the word "age [singular]" (which is always attached to time and history in this earthly existence) and the phrase "the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (which phrase [put together THIS WAY] always refers to what we now call "eternity / forever")
[the GWTj follows all of that... meaning, follows the 1000-yr promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (promised to Israel, not to "the Church which is His body," to be clear)]
In his OP post, he only covered "age [singular]" (that which is attached to the earth), and not the phrase I presented in my Post #10.
What say you regarding the content of Post #10??
[the GWTj follows all of that... meaning, follows the 1000-yr promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (promised to Israel, not to "the Church which is His body," to be clear)]
In his OP post, he only covered "age [singular]" (that which is attached to the earth), and not the phrase I presented in my Post #10.
What say you regarding the content of Post #10??
