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It was imperative that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of men: see Mat_20:19; Mat_26:2; Mar_9:31; Mar_10:33, Luk_9:44; Luk_18:32.
This is his "going away." Without his death and resurrection there is no salvation.
The above part he posted is correct. If you took the time to look at the proofs I posted you would see it for yourself.
Now lets look at John 20 in next post.
The first ascension is often grouped as part of the Resurrection. After the Resurrection and first ascension Jesus indwelt them with the Holy Spirit, who brought things back to their memories. If you took the time to read the proof posts you would have known that. Even if you combine the Ascension recorded by John with those recorded by Luke. Jesus still indwelt them with the Holy Spirit. A key you missed is the words "a little while".
John 20
10 Then the followers went back home. 11 But Mary stood outside the tomb, crying. While she was crying, she bent down and looked inside the tomb. 12 She saw two angels dressed in white sitting where Jesus’ body had been. One was sitting where the head had been; the other was sitting where the feet had been.
13 The angels asked Mary, “Woman, why are you crying?”
Mary answered, “They took away the body of my Lord, and I don’t know where they put him.” 14 When Mary said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there. But she did not know that it was Jesus.
15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who are you looking for?”
She thought he was the man in charge of the garden. So she said to him, “Did you take him away, sir? Tell me where you put him. I will go and get him.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”
She turned toward him and said in Aramaic, “Rabboni,” which means “Teacher.”
17 Jesus said to her, “You don’t need to hold on to me! I have not yet gone back up to the Father. But go to my followers[a] and tell them this: ‘I am going back to my Father and your Father. I am going back to my God and your God.’”
18 Mary Magdalene went to the followers and told them, “I saw the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her.
Jesus Appears to His Followers
19 The day was Sunday, and that same evening the followers were together. They had the doors locked because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them. He said, “Peace be with you!” 20 As soon as he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. When the followers saw the Lord, they were very happy.
21 Then Jesus said again, “Peace be with you. It was the Father who sent me, and I am now sending you in the same way.” 22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, their sins are forgiven. If there is anyone whose sins you don’t forgive, their sins are not forgiven.”
Jesus Appears to Thomas
24 Thomas (called Didymus) was one of the twelve, but he was not with the other followers when Jesus came. 25 They told him, “We saw the Lord.” Thomas said, “That’s hard to believe. I will have to see the nail holes in his hands, put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side. Only then will I believe it.”
26 A week later the followers were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. The doors were locked, but Jesus came and stood among them. He said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand here in my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “You believe because you see me. Great blessings belong to the people who believe without seeing me!”
Why John Wrote This Book
30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs that his followers saw, which are not written in this book. 31 But these are written so that you can believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. Then, by believing, you can have life through his name.
Luke records the Second Ascension.
Luke 24:50-53 Good News Translation (GNT)
Jesus Is Taken Up to Heaven
50 Then he led them out of the city as far as Bethany, where he raised his hands and blessed them. 51 As he was blessing them, he departed from them and was taken up into heaven. 52 They worshiped him and went back into Jerusalem, filled with great joy, 53 and spent all their time in the Temple giving thanks to God.
Acts 1:6-10 Good News Translation (GNT)
Jesus Is Taken Up to Heaven
6 When the apostles met together with Jesus, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time give the Kingdom back to Israel?”
7 Jesus said to them, “The times and occasions are set by my Father's own authority, and it is not for you to know when they will be. 8 But when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, you will be filled with power, and you will be witnesses for me in Jerusalem, in all of Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” 9 After saying this, he was taken up to heaven as they watched him, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They still had their eyes fixed on the sky as he went away, when two men dressed in white suddenly stood beside them
The order of appearances;
1 Corinthians 15 Good News Translation (GNT)
The Resurrection of Christ
15 And now I want to remind you, my friends, of the Good News which I preached to you, which you received, and on which your faith stands firm. 2 That is the gospel, the message that I preached to you. You are saved by the gospel if you hold firmly to it—unless it was for nothing that you believed.
3 I passed on to you what I received, which is of the greatest importance: that Christ died for our sins, as written in the Scriptures; 4 that he was buried and that he was raised to life three days later, as written in the Scriptures; 5 that he appeared to Peter and then to all twelve apostles. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred of his followers at once, most of whom are still alive, although some have died. 7 Then he appeared to James, and afterward to all the apostles.
8 Last of all he appeared also to me—even though I am like someone whose birth was abnormal.[a] 9 For I am the least of all the apostles—I do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted God's church. 10 But by God's grace I am what I am, and the grace that he gave me was not without effect. On the contrary, I have worked harder than any of the other apostles, although it was not really my own doing, but God's grace working with me. 11 So then, whether it came from me or from them, this is what we all preach, and this is what you believe.
John 20
10 Then the followers went back home. 11 But Mary stood outside the tomb, crying. While she was crying, she bent down and looked inside the tomb. 12 She saw two angels dressed in white sitting where Jesus’ body had been. One was sitting where the head had been; the other was sitting where the feet had been.
13 The angels asked Mary, “Woman, why are you crying?”
Mary answered, “They took away the body of my Lord, and I don’t know where they put him.” 14 When Mary said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there. But she did not know that it was Jesus.
15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who are you looking for?”
She thought he was the man in charge of the garden. So she said to him, “Did you take him away, sir? Tell me where you put him. I will go and get him.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”
She turned toward him and said in Aramaic, “Rabboni,” which means “Teacher.”
17 Jesus said to her, “You don’t need to hold on to me! I have not yet gone back up to the Father. But go to my followers[a] and tell them this: ‘I am going back to my Father and your Father. I am going back to my God and your God.’”
18 Mary Magdalene went to the followers and told them, “I saw the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her.
Jesus Appears to His Followers
19 The day was Sunday, and that same evening the followers were together. They had the doors locked because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them. He said, “Peace be with you!” 20 As soon as he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. When the followers saw the Lord, they were very happy.
21 Then Jesus said again, “Peace be with you. It was the Father who sent me, and I am now sending you in the same way.” 22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, their sins are forgiven. If there is anyone whose sins you don’t forgive, their sins are not forgiven.”
Jesus Appears to Thomas
24 Thomas (called Didymus) was one of the twelve, but he was not with the other followers when Jesus came. 25 They told him, “We saw the Lord.” Thomas said, “That’s hard to believe. I will have to see the nail holes in his hands, put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side. Only then will I believe it.”
26 A week later the followers were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. The doors were locked, but Jesus came and stood among them. He said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand here in my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “You believe because you see me. Great blessings belong to the people who believe without seeing me!”
Why John Wrote This Book
30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs that his followers saw, which are not written in this book. 31 But these are written so that you can believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. Then, by believing, you can have life through his name.
Luke records the Second Ascension.
Luke 24:50-53 Good News Translation (GNT)
Jesus Is Taken Up to Heaven
50 Then he led them out of the city as far as Bethany, where he raised his hands and blessed them. 51 As he was blessing them, he departed from them and was taken up into heaven. 52 They worshiped him and went back into Jerusalem, filled with great joy, 53 and spent all their time in the Temple giving thanks to God.
Acts 1:6-10 Good News Translation (GNT)
Jesus Is Taken Up to Heaven
6 When the apostles met together with Jesus, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time give the Kingdom back to Israel?”
7 Jesus said to them, “The times and occasions are set by my Father's own authority, and it is not for you to know when they will be. 8 But when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, you will be filled with power, and you will be witnesses for me in Jerusalem, in all of Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” 9 After saying this, he was taken up to heaven as they watched him, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They still had their eyes fixed on the sky as he went away, when two men dressed in white suddenly stood beside them
The order of appearances;
1 Corinthians 15 Good News Translation (GNT)
The Resurrection of Christ
15 And now I want to remind you, my friends, of the Good News which I preached to you, which you received, and on which your faith stands firm. 2 That is the gospel, the message that I preached to you. You are saved by the gospel if you hold firmly to it—unless it was for nothing that you believed.
3 I passed on to you what I received, which is of the greatest importance: that Christ died for our sins, as written in the Scriptures; 4 that he was buried and that he was raised to life three days later, as written in the Scriptures; 5 that he appeared to Peter and then to all twelve apostles. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred of his followers at once, most of whom are still alive, although some have died. 7 Then he appeared to James, and afterward to all the apostles.
8 Last of all he appeared also to me—even though I am like someone whose birth was abnormal.[a] 9 For I am the least of all the apostles—I do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted God's church. 10 But by God's grace I am what I am, and the grace that he gave me was not without effect. On the contrary, I have worked harder than any of the other apostles, although it was not really my own doing, but God's grace working with me. 11 So then, whether it came from me or from them, this is what we all preach, and this is what you believe.
John 15
14 He shallglorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it unto you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he taketh of mine, and shall declare it unto you. 16 A little while, and ye behold me no more; and again a little while, and ye shall see me. 17 Some of his disciples therefore said one to another, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye behold me not; and again a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? 18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? We know not what he saith. 19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me? 20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. 21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world. 22 And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.
We know from I cor 15 they did in fact see Jesus again on this earth after his death, Resurrection and first Ascension. Other than Paul I do not remember any of the Apostles see Jesus after the Second Ascension. Can you kindly show me the text where they did?
14 He shallglorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it unto you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he taketh of mine, and shall declare it unto you. 16 A little while, and ye behold me no more; and again a little while, and ye shall see me. 17 Some of his disciples therefore said one to another, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye behold me not; and again a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? 18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? We know not what he saith. 19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me? 20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. 21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world. 22 And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.
We know from I cor 15 they did in fact see Jesus again on this earth after his death, Resurrection and first Ascension. Other than Paul I do not remember any of the Apostles see Jesus after the Second Ascension. Can you kindly show me the text where they did?
Matthew 28:9 (NKJV)
9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.
Luke 24:39 (NKJV)
39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
John 20:17 (NKJV)
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”
Interesting read http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=1842
So If there is not two Ascensions why is Mary Magdalene not allowed to touch him while others are? Other Women were allowed to touch him.
9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.
Luke 24:39 (NKJV)
39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
John 20:17 (NKJV)
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”
Interesting read http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=1842
So If there is not two Ascensions why is Mary Magdalene not allowed to touch him while others are? Other Women were allowed to touch him.
1.You did not post any proof, your work doesn't meet the threshold for proving anything because it is in a language that majority of the people don't understand and it is an entire bible. How many chapters does it take for a man to eat fish?
You can try again but this time be clear and precise.
2. We are not talking about salvation but the personalities of the Holy spirit and Jesus.
My point is very simple; if the Holy spirit was already there with the disciples and they knew Him yet could not be in them unless Jesus goes and comes back to them shortly, it is clear that Jesus is the Holy spirit who had to go and come in a different form and indwell them.
3. You do not even understand that Jesus resurrected immediately after dying, that very millisecond:
Matt 27:
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and e went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
The sign of Jonah (3 days and 3 nights), was for a perverse generation that goes by sight.
So, if your argument about Jesus going (dying) and coming back (resurrects) falls flight because according to the verses above, He actually didn't go anywhere.
You can try again but this time be clear and precise.
2. We are not talking about salvation but the personalities of the Holy spirit and Jesus.
My point is very simple; if the Holy spirit was already there with the disciples and they knew Him yet could not be in them unless Jesus goes and comes back to them shortly, it is clear that Jesus is the Holy spirit who had to go and come in a different form and indwell them.
3. You do not even understand that Jesus resurrected immediately after dying, that very millisecond:
Matt 27:
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and e went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
The sign of Jonah (3 days and 3 nights), was for a perverse generation that goes by sight.
So, if your argument about Jesus going (dying) and coming back (resurrects) falls flight because according to the verses above, He actually didn't go anywhere.
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My point is very simple;
1. The comforter was already there with the disciples and they knew Him
2. Yet Jesus had to go (ascend to the Father) for the comforter to come into them (disciples)
3. Jesus also promises that He will not leave them comfortless, He will come back to them shortly
My conclusion:
Jesus claimed to be the comforter in this passages. He was with them and they knew Him, He had to go and come in a different form because He promised not to leave them comfortless.
If indeed, they are two persons, why wouldn't the Holy spirit just indwell them at the command of Jesus? after all, the scripture confirms that the Holy spirit was already there with the disciples and they knew Him. The only person that the disciples knew was Jesus.
1. The comforter was already there with the disciples and they knew Him
2. Yet Jesus had to go (ascend to the Father) for the comforter to come into them (disciples)
3. Jesus also promises that He will not leave them comfortless, He will come back to them shortly
My conclusion:
Jesus claimed to be the comforter in this passages. He was with them and they knew Him, He had to go and come in a different form because He promised not to leave them comfortless.
If indeed, they are two persons, why wouldn't the Holy spirit just indwell them at the command of Jesus? after all, the scripture confirms that the Holy spirit was already there with the disciples and they knew Him. The only person that the disciples knew was Jesus.
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I don't feel qualified to answer your question, sorry. I just believe that God has a time and place for everything and that time was yet to come. We know the Holy Spirit was active at creation and present with Israel, see here
https://www.thomasnelsonbibles.com/the-holy-spirit-in-the-old-testament/
but the world had yet to to know of Jesus and it was the filling of the disciples in the upper room that empowered them to go into all the world and preach the Gospel.
https://www.thomasnelsonbibles.com/the-holy-spirit-in-the-old-testament/
but the world had yet to to know of Jesus and it was the filling of the disciples in the upper room that empowered them to go into all the world and preach the Gospel.
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When I taught in School my Third Graders understood it easy enough.
Early Quotes by Christian Authors
Even if we cannot find or access early manuscripts before the fourth century to see if they contain Matthew 28.19, we can still consult the many Christian authors who lived in the second and third centuries to see how they cited it. Below is a list of a few quotations.
Didache (a.d. 60-150) chapter 7.1-4
“Now about baptism: this is how to baptize. Give public instruction on all these points, and then baptize in running water, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. If you do not have running water, batpize in some other. If you cannot in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, then pour water on the head three times in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Before baptism, moreover, the one who baptizes and the one being baptized must fast, and any others who can. And you must tell the one being baptized to fast for one or two days beforehand.”
First Apology by Justin Martyr (a.d. 155) chapter 61
“…Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are born again, for they then receive washing in water in the name of God the Father and Master of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. For Christ also said, ‘Except you are born again, you will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.’…”
Against Heresies by Irenaeus (a.d. 180) book 3 chapter 17.1
“…And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, he said to them, ‘Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.’…”
On Baptism by Tertullian (a.d. 198) chapter 13
“For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: ‘Go,’ He saith, ‘teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.’ The comparison with this law of that definition, ‘Unless a man have been reborn of water and Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of the heavens,’ has tied faith to the necessity of baptism.”
The Apostolic Tradition by Hippolytus (a.d. 200-235) chapter 21.12-18
“And when he who is baptized goes down into the water, he who baptizes him, putting his hand on him, shall say thus: Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty? And he who is being baptized shall say: I believe. Then holding his hand placed on his head, he shall baptize him once. And then he shall say: Do you believe in Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was born of the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and was dead and buried, and rose again on the third day, alive from the dead, ascended into heaven, and sat at the right hand of the Father, and will come to judge the living and the dead? And when he says: I believe, he is baptized again. And again he shall say: Do you believe in holy spirit, and the holy church, and the resurrection of the flesh? He who is being baptized shall say accordingly: I believe, and so he is baptized a third time.”
Epistle to Magnus by Cyprian (a.d. 250) chapter 7
“…But if any one objects, by way of saying that Novatian holds the same law which the universal church holds, baptizes with the same symbol with which we baptize, knows the same God and Father, the same Christ the Son, the same Holy Spirit, and that for this reason he may claim the power of baptizing, namely, that he seems not to differ from us in the baptismal interrogatory; let any one that thinks that this may be objected, know first of all, that there is not one law of the creed…”
The traditional reading of Matthew 28.19 was alive and well before a.d. 325 and people knew about it. Furthermore, I have not found any controversy over the authenticity of this text anywhere. This is mounting up to be a really solid case: not only do ALL extant Greek manuscripts with Matthew 28.19 in them contain the traditional reading, but all of the church fathers in the second and third century that quote or allude to it use the traditional version. Suddenly the case from Eusebius’ quotations does not seem so impressive. Even so, let’s consider Eusebius’ statements to better understand what is happening.
Eusebius of Caesarea
The theory goes that Eusebius quoted a shortened version of Matthew 28.19 before the council of Nicea in a.d. 325 and then quoted the longer, more Trinitarian, version thereafter. This allegedly proves that the church decided to change the Bible to give more credence to the Trinity theory. I find this hypothesis unconvincing for four reasons. First of all, Eusebius was not a Trinitarian; he was an Arian. In fact, Eusebius of Caesarea had written a letter to Alexander, the bishop who excommunicated Arius, demanding he restore Arius. Furthermore, Eusebius called a council in the early 320s at which the gathered bishops vindicated Arius and drafted another letter pressuring Alexander to reinstate him. Lastly, Eusebius found himself deposed by a council in Antioch shortly before the one at Nicea for supporting Arius. Now it is true that Eusebius signed the Nicene Creed in a.d. 325, but historians generally chalk that up to compromise rather than a sudden change of heart. (If he hadn’t signed the creed he would have lost his job as bishop of Caesarea, lost his influence in the debate, and lost his position as one of the emperor’s advisors.) So, Eusebius is not some super Trinitarian defender like Athanasius, but actually quite the opposite. He felt uncomfortable with the Nicene Creed and even wrote a kind of damage control letter home to Caesarea explaining how they were going to understand the new formula. His well-known anti-Nicene position is probably why he is today not known as Saint Eusebius. http://lhim.org/blog/2013/02/27/is-matthew-28-19-authentic-or-a-forgery/
The Holy Spirit is Jesus in the same way that my wife Is me. We are in unity, and therefore we are "one". Since we are living in a fallen world, our unity is flawed, but the picture of it is still there. Of course she is not me, and I am not her, but yet, we are in a unity relationship and are "one". To think however that she is actually me is not correct however. Nor is it correct to think that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
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