What is falling away as mentioned in Hebrews 6?

eternally-gratefull · Mar 27, 2019

Whatever

Go ahead and interpret the word any way you desire. And hink that is ok

I will use the tools God gave me to interpret his word. And determine what he said and why he said it s I can properly interpret his word. And then take that interpretation to apply it to my life today.

As for the holy spirit. Look at all the denominations who all have their many interpretations of just this one passage alone and all say the HS is who guided them to that interpretation

The fact is, you were wrong in your interpretation. It is not what the author was saying, in no place in this passage was he talking about falling back into sin, He was talking about returning to the law.

By the way, DO you believe if we fall back into sin we risk losing salvation?

Sipsey · Mar 27, 2019

obedienttogod said:

You do realize Marcion was a heretic?

The Muratorian Canon was also missing James, 1 and 2 Peter, and 3 John

Are you saying James, 1&2 Peter & 3 John were later additions?

Included was the Wisdom of Solomon , Revelation of Peter and Shepherd (or Pastor) of Hermas. Are you saying these should be included?

Hebrews was accepted by the Eastern church early on, it took the Western church a little longer.

Again, I repeat, passages from the book of Hebrews was quoted in 95ad by Clement of Rome who makes at least four quotations from the book of Hebrews in his letter to the Corinthians, which is evidence of the Epistle's authenticity and early use as scripture in the churches.

Also, the Chester Beatty papyrus, (200 AD) contained the book of Hebrews.

Not Tradition, but the vast majority of Biblical scholars are in agreement on this summation;

The book of Hebrews was quoted in 95 A.D. by Clement of Rome, indicating that the book was written prior to that year. Hebrews speaks of the Temple in Jerusalem as an existing edifice. If it had already been destroyed, the author would have referred to that fact as an example of the less authoritative nature of the Judaic system. This epistle was written prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. Timothy was still alive at the time of this letter (13:23), and the Jewish system was about to be removed (12:26-27). This book was written between 64 and 68 A.D. Hebrews presents Christ as Prophet, Priest and King, far superior to any religious system this world might devise. He who is from everlasting is better than anything or anyone found in this world-system."

TLC209 · Mar 27, 2019

MattforJesus said:

Falling away is believing something different other than a personal God, the God of Israel, and Jesus as Lord and Savior, after they have believed it for awhile.

They went back to the world with an alternate reality whether it was what they believed before they accepted the truth, or something different, and whether it is being an atheist, or believing another religion.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

When we first believe, and confess Christ, we go through the basic doctrines of being saved, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, which we believe in the God of Israel, have faith, confess Christ, repent of our sins, our dead works according to the flesh, to do the works of the Spirit.

But after we have the basics down then we move on to understand more of God's word, which is mainly to act like Christ by the Spirit, which the Bible says we grow in Christ, and the preachers, and such, are for the perfection of the saints, which we go on to perfection to become a perfect man.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The people that have fallen away in these scriptures abandoned the truth of God, and Jesus Christ, and went back to the world, and believed an alternate reality, belief, so they abandoned all the basic doctrines of Christ that they went through not believing in them anymore, so they are back to being part of the world, and their salvation is forfeited, and null and void.

Which since they went back to the world abandoning the truth of God, and Jesus Christ, and the truth of salvation, and then believed they made a mistake and believe again, God said it is impossible for them to go through all the basic doctrines of Christ again in order to be saved, for then they put Christ to an open shame for believing, and then abandoning that, and then believing again.

So God will not allow them to come back to the Church, but their salvation is forfeited forever.

Moral of the story, never abandon God, and Jesus, and go back to the world, and this falling away does not have anything to do with sin, for all sin can be forgiven, even if a person lives in sin for a year it can be forgiven.

So these passages cannot mean someone that sins, for there is reversal for that to be back right with God, but there is no reversal for this for they went back to the world not believing the truth of God, and Jesus.

The Bible says they were saved, and they tasted the heavenly gift, and were once enlightened, and were partakers of the Holy Ghost.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

This is a good example right here, which shall occur at the latter times, which is now, real close to Jesus coming back, which is the new age movement who have a false interpretation of the Bible based on the occult, and evolution, which they believe people can still evolve to be greater, and spiritual, provided by the New Age Christ, the final teacher in the evolutionary process.

They do not acknowledge a personal God, but honor the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior, but a good teacher in spiritual enlightenment, evolution, and love, and an ascended master, and avatar.

The Bible says some shall depart from the faith of the Bible, and Jesus, and go by their false interpretation of the Bible, which they went back to the world for they do not believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior anymore, so they abandoned their faith in Him, and forfeited salvation.

These people are lost forever, for if they believe again, they cannot be saved again, for they went back to the world believing an alternate reality, belief.

But if people were not saved, and believed the new age movement interpretation of the Bible, and then believed in Jesus as Lord and Savior, then they can be saved for they did not abandon it, for they did not believe it yet, but if they go back to the new age movement, the world, and believe again in Jesus as Lord and Savior they cannot be saved again.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

This speaks of falling away, but it is not the Church that fell away, for the Church can never fall away, for the gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church, but it is only individuals that can fall away.

But this has to do with the condition of the world in response to the Gospel, which the nations came together to try to establish peace on earth, and the new age movement the unified religious system, with all religions interpreted by them, and they hinder anything that is taught contrary to the unified religious system, for they believe it is not the truth, and they are disrupting the peace plan for the world, and are hateful towards other people.

Which it is not someone that claims Jesus, and then abandons it, for that falling away, but it is still a falling away for the world stopped the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So the falling away in Hebrews 6 is someone that believed the truth, and were saved, but they abandoned the truth of God, and Jesus, and went back to the world believing an alternate reality, or belief, so they cannot be saved after that forever if they believe again.

2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

These scriptures have to do someone that has been saved, and repented of their sins, and turning away from them, and then after a while of living for Jesus went back to the world enjoying sins, and if they stay that way then they are not saved, and it would of been better for them to not have known the way of righteousness, than to depart from it.

Because we can abstain from sins by the Spirit, and sin does affect our relationship with God.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But many live in sin and think they are still right with God, but it appears according to these scriptures that they were never saved when they first confessed Christ, but had the improper belief concerning repenting of their sins, and abstaining from sins.

But they denied being led of the Spirit for they still wanted to enjoy the world, but believed there were saved, and could not fall despite their sins.

Hebrews 6, falling away, abandoning the truth of God, and Jesus, for a different belief, cannot come back to the Church.

2 Peter 2, went back to the world to enjoy sins after they repented, and were saved, and if they stay that way there is no salvation, but there is reversal here for they can repent of their sins, and be right again in their salvation.

But some people are ever learning but never able to come to the truth, which they did not even get saved when they first confessed Christ for they had the wrong belief about repentance, and enjoyed the world, and fleshy pleasures, and money, and material things for their wants, above their needs, and believed they were alright with God.

I think you made a great point. You are spot on. Thanks for your input. God bless you.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 27, 2019

TLC209 said:

Well its good to know by this response you think salvation can be lost.

That answers alot.

TLC209 · Mar 27, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

You avoid the question because you do not have the Holy Spirit. If you do not have the Holy Spirit you cannot be born again and hence cannot be a child of God. So is herman really helping you as you claim? Herman cannot save you and you are missing the point of scripture. Its never too late to recieve Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

I trust in the Holy Spirit. You trust in herman?

eternally-gratefull · Mar 27, 2019

TLC209 said:

Dude I was washed and regenerated and sealed by the holy spirit over 40 years ago. So if I was you I would stop assuming things. (Plus I answered the question. Why have you not answered either one of my questions? Yeah we are starting to see here..

You trust in your own view of what you WANT the bible to say

I trust God wrote the word for a reason, and wish to find out what that reason is, and not just interpret it any ole way I please.

But you keep thinking the HS helps you. All the other people who have differeing views thinks just like you.. The only difference is You have no way to PROVE your right.

TLC209 · Mar 27, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

Im not denominational im Christian. You asked if i believe someone can lose their salvation but I question weather or not someone is truly saved? Salvation is the faith in Christ and what He did on the cross, that faith comes with a promise and that is salvation from death. But that faith alone cannot save someone. Your faith must endure the trials and the tests, we must prove ourselves honorable and righteous before the Lord by sticking to the teachings and obeyed the commandments and statutes set forth by God, and removing ourselves from the world and all wickedness and appearances of evil. We must be blameless before God. Christ washed away our sins but we must repent and put away the old and put on the new man which is in Christ. His Holy Spirit allows for this new transformation this new creation. So this "im saved" doctrine I dont believe in. So the idea that you can lose your salvation comes from a doctrine that people are "saved" but who truly knows if one will be saved? The bible makes it clear who will not enter the kingdom of heaven and God is not respector of persons. Many will say Lord Lord we cast out demons in Your name, we prophesied in Your name or may even say "I was baptised in Your name" and im sure He will tell them depart from me you workers of iniquity. God says it is those who do the will of God, be doers of the word and not only hearers of the word. Does hermen teach you all of that?

obedienttogod · Mar 28, 2019

Sipsey said:

You do realize Marcion was a heretic?

The Muratorian Canon was also missing James, 1 and 2 Peter, and 3 John

Are you saying James, 1&2 Peter & 3 John were later additions?

Included was the Wisdom of Solomon , Revelation of Peter and Shepherd (or Pastor) of Hermas. Are you saying these should be included?

Hebrews was accepted by the Eastern church early on, it took the Western church a little longer.

Again, I repeat, passages from the book of Hebrews was quoted in 95ad by Clement of Rome who makes at least four quotations from the book of Hebrews in his letter to the Corinthians, which is evidence of the Epistle's authenticity and early use as scripture in the churches.

Also, the Chester Beatty papyrus, (200 AD) contained the book of Hebrews.

Not Tradition, but the vast majority of Biblical scholars are in agreement on this summation;

The book of Hebrews was quoted in 95 A.D. by Clement of Rome, indicating that the book was written prior to that year. Hebrews speaks of the Temple in Jerusalem as an existing edifice. If it had already been destroyed, the author would have referred to that fact as an example of the less authoritative nature of the Judaic system. This epistle was written prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. Timothy was still alive at the time of this letter (13:23), and the Jewish system was about to be removed (12:26-27). This book was written between 64 and 68 A.D. Hebrews presents Christ as Prophet, Priest and King, far superior to any religious system this world might devise. He who is from everlasting is better than anything or anyone found in this world-system."

Still, if by the year 200 A.D. the Roman church had no record of Hebrews being in their Canon, how could Clement (a Bishop of Rome and had access to the Rome Canon)(quote from a Book that did not exist for another 180 years...100 years before)?

Blik · Mar 28, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

Good. I wonder if the church today is so far gone with their twisting of God's word that nothing can help. It seems to be rooted in tossing out the OT scriptures, for there God is explained, the rest is based on what the OT told of. It can be compared to someone going to college without grade school. Just doesn't work. The NT was written to people who knew scripture or could go to synagogue to learn it. Today people get to the 613 laws and throw up their hands about learning God's ways.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 28, 2019

TLC209 said:

Well we are both non denominational. Imagine that.
You also follow the path of many in here who somehow think by their actions and their good works, they can maintain their salvation. A typical flaw of what I call modern day phariseeism, where a person claims they have faith in Christ. But when it comes down to it, their faith is in how well they “endure trials” “prove themselves before God” Obey the commands and teachings” How they must be “blameless” (do you consider yourself to be sinless?

The most worrysome part of your post is that you only think the Holy Spirit “ALLOWS” for this new transformation and this new creation.

You do not believe that when paul says we HAVE BEEN SAVED, that he did not mean it? Or how about in eph when he says we HAVE BEEN SAVED by grace? I mean did paul just make a mistake, or .. Or how about Jesus, When he said whoever comes to faith and recieves his gift, or in another passage, eats the food he came to give them will Never Hunger, Never Die, Live Forever Never thirst, Be Raised by him (not delivered to him) and has passed from death to life, this life he calls ETERNAL life, or john, when he said we can KNOW we HAVE eternal life, and it is the power of this knoledge that we KNOW we have it that we can continue to beliieve (move forward)

oh wait. I get it, You think you can interpret the word any way you want, and someohow it is the HS who taught you. You do not have to take scripture literally!! Now it all comes together!!

Well let me give you some advise.

1. You can not obey the commands in such a way you can maintain your salvation Moses through God and Paul in gal 3 says anyone trying to do this is under a curse because the requirement is to obey every word for all time. News flash. You have failed. You are failing and you WILL fail (he who says he has no sin DECIEVES themselves

2. You have been made a new creature. Your not making yourself a new creature.

3. You have been transformed, And the more you renew your mind, the more that transformation will take place. But only because the HS HAS EMPOWERED YOU.

4. You WILL (not might) Do good works (true faith works)

5. As hebrews says, He has PERFECTED FOREVER, those he is in the proces of SANCTIFYING (a lifetime work of God)

6. You see. The Holy Spirit does not ALLOW you to do these things, he EMPOWERS you to do them, and when you get off track, He CHASTENS YOU.

And finally. You quoted a well known passage, about doing many great works in Jesus name and ending up in hell. But as usual. You left off the end. You left off the point where jesus said, “I NEVER KNEW YOU, and they were YOU WHO PRACTICE INIQUITY”

The fact he NEVER knew them proves they were NEVER SAVED (not saved then forfiet their salvation)
The fact they practiced iniquity shows they were decieved In fact John tells us who they are “whoever sins has never seen God, whoever has been born of God can not live in sin”
You see many people THINK they are righteous, THINK they live without sin (see pharisees, who continually confessed they obeyed the lawe from birth and never brok one command (were sinless) and they will get a rude awakening one day when they realise they never repented. And all their good deeds. Were human righteousness (bloody rags) and they continue a life of self denial. Self righteousness, all which is sin.

Well good luck with that my friend.

Chester · Mar 28, 2019

John146 said:

So you think Hebrews is for a different age and a different time and is not doctrine for the church today?

You have got to be kidding me?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chester · Mar 28, 2019

justpassinthrough said:

You have some good ideas here, but you are missing that the verbs in verse 6 are present participles and occur at the same time as the main verb "to renew". It is impossible to renew them to repentance while they are crucifying again . . . and putting to an open shame . . . If you want to renew them to repentance you must first deal with them the sin they are doing (crucifying again and putting to an open shame) and then you can renew them to repentance. But you cannot renew them to repentance while at the same time they are doing these sins.

FollowHisSteps · Mar 28, 2019

The above post assumes they know everything, and can correct someone as to their position
before Christ.

A key issue for me is a simple one. The first commandment,
"Love the Lord you God with all your heart, all your mind, all your strength"

Now the creator of the universe has come to earth and talked to men. He has laid our His heart,
and His ways. He has declared His ways are different to ours, and we tend to be evil, and deaf.

So if someone cannot take delight in Gods law or even know it, or why it exists, what hope have
they of knowing the author or His intentions.

Jesus changed our perspective on obedience. He changed our hearts through the cross, and He
promised that if we repent and commit to follow Him, He will anoint us with the Holy Spirit.
And the victory we have is through the Holy Spirit, who strengthens us.

So those who decry righteous walking and obedience saying it is impossible are declaring one
thing, they do not know the Spirit or His victory. And at this point they should just collapse
in repentance and ask the Lord to anoint them and forgive them. But no their response is
abuse, condemnation, lies, and searching like a lion to find fault. Who does that remind you of?

eternally-gratefull · Mar 28, 2019

Chester said:

You have some good ideas here, but you are missing that the verbs in verse 6 are present participles and occur at the same time as the main verb "to renew". It is impossible to renew them to repentance while they are crucifying again . . . and putting to an open shame . . . If you want to renew them to repentance you must first deal with them the sin they are doing (crucifying again and putting to an open shame) and then you can renew them to repentance. But you cannot renew them to repentance while at the same time they are doing these sins.

what???? Where do you come up with this stuff?

FollowHisSteps · Mar 28, 2019

LeeLoving said:

Heb 6 is a warning.
Eternally there is nothing greater than walking with Jesus, and the reality and its rules are eternal.
The deeper you go, if you turn back the consequences are not good.

So if you have experienced it all, shrugged it all off and walked away going back to the world how
could you ever return.

From what I have seen this rarely happens and most never really grasp what it means to walk with Jesus.
In our walk there are many struggles, and in these struggles our faith can ebb and flow.
This is about life and learning the next step we need to take, not that we have rejected the way of salvation
and now after turning away we desire to return.

Some get very aggressive and have constructed a faith view where even suggesting you could turn away
is unbelief and a sign one is the enemy of Christ. Conversations with people who think like this gets
very strange until you understand their perspective.

stonesoffire · Mar 28, 2019

John146 said:

I think the enduring to the end is to the Jews and it's aim is love. Will your love for God endure when persecution rises. But, I have to say that I've not yet studied this to the fullest extent.

The body of Christ has been baptized into Him. There's then like Peter declared, where could we go for You Lord have the words of eternal life.

The body of Christ is not a religion of outward actions but the very Oneness of God on earth and in heaven.

We have yet to fully realize.

FollowHisSteps · Mar 28, 2019

Chester said:

This is an interesting interpretation. My question would be this is equally true for any believer who
sins and refuses to repent and get right with God. And once one accepts this is true for the sinner,
something is different for those who rejected the whole gospel after having been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
It would suggest to me, if one is purified and made Holy, to be desecrated and reject faith, means there
is not a path back to faith.

The difficulty here is many who are children in christian families fall away, and finally come to faith
in later life. I think the writer in Hebrews is talking about those who reach maturity in faith and
leadership, and then walk away, so there is no doubt as to the rebellion into which they have fallen.

stonesoffire · Mar 28, 2019

You know, there are two verses in that chapter that everyone is not considering that I just realized is key to what is being said. Or maybe one has and I haven't yet read it.

It begins by stating the foundational teachings that one needs to be grounded in before being mature in the faith.

1 Therefore, leaving behind the elementary teachings about the Messiah, let us continue to be carried along to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead actions, faith toward God,

2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

3 And this we will do, if God permits.

The teacher here seems to be saying something similar to " I've taught you all these truths and given what God has instructed me to give, but I can't go on and give greater revelations if you all aren't fruitful in the basic truths.

You can't keep plowing the ground.

4 For it is impossible to keep on restoring to repentance time and again people who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have become partners with the Holy Spirit,

5 who have tasted the goodness of God's word and the powers of the coming age,

6 and who have fallen away, as long as they continue to crucify the Son of God to their own detriment by exposing him to public ridicule.

7 For when the ground soaks up rain that often falls on it and continues producing vegetation useful to those for whom it is cultivated, it receives a blessing from God.

8 However, if it continues to produce thorns and thistles, it is worthless and in danger of being cursed, and in the end will be burned.

Bear with me now....😇

What I see in the ISV version, is that these have sat in the assembly....enlightened...the Word shining on....penetrated?

Tasted...just a taste, not drank yet. Partners...a tricky one. Partakers in kjv.

G3353

μέτοχος

metochos

Thayer Definition:

1) sharing in, partaking

2) a partner (in a work, office, dignity)

Part of Speech: adjective

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3348

Could this be a worker in the assemby? Helped in the work Holy Spirit assigned?

Tasted mentioned twice ....

Fallen away...no true repentance from knowing and understanding the gospel nor any good fruit produced in the life. Continual plowing, planting, but bad fruit or false wheat produced.I think it's called tares, or darnel in the Greek.

And their lives cause the gospel message to be shamed.

This has to be those that never were part of the body, never had true repentance and were pretenders. Not babes in the Lord who fall while learning to walk. Still needing milk for growth. These are not the Lambd who might stray for a time from the fold, Nor ready for the message of Sonship.

Sorry, but this is what I see. Confirmation?

stonesoffire · Mar 28, 2019

Lambs not lambd where's spellcheck when really needed?

Sipsey · Mar 28, 2019

obedienttogod said:

Since it is a stated fact with evidence, and not a theory, simply do your own research, like I did. It is easily verifiable by scholars.

obedienttogod said:

Did you know that the entire NT can be assembled, minus about 11 verses, from letters and exchanged writings be tween early believers, before the council of Nicea?

Are you even aware that Nicea was convened, in part, as a response to the heretical canon that was being toughted by Marcion?

The canon simply declared the writings that were already in existence.

Do some real digging and research produced by scholars with credentials.

Since the canon in 200 also omitted James, 1 and 2 Peter, and 3 John I guess you consider them as suspect also?

What is falling away as mentioned in Hebrews 6?

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