Sirach: Its Relevance to Jesus' Teaching and Christian Spirituality

[SIMON55]

Hi @MadHermit, I'm very sorry to hear about the loss of your parents! I lost both of my parents about 5 years ago or so, and there is a sadness that persists even now, one that I do not expect will ever go away (though in the case of my mother, there is also great joy, because I am certain of the wondrous eternity that is now hers .. as you are in the case of your parents .. my dad I'm, sadly, not so sure about ).

As for the rest of your post, you mentioned Jesus' upbringing. How do we 'know' that He was, "immersed in Jewish Wisdom writings", in His early years, or that Sirach, or any other writings for that matter, influenced what He taught us in the NT?

The command to "love your neighbor as yourself", for instance, was hardly a new teaching in 175 BC when Sirach was written.

Leviticus 19​

17 ‘You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him.​

18 ‘You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.​

And if Jesus needed Sirach to come to a proper understanding of what it means to "love yourself", what did the people of Moses' day do to understand it more than a millennium before Sirach was written?

Finally, do you believe that Jesus was referring to involvement in various forms of secular entertainment/relaxation when He spoke of the "abundant" life that His coming here was meant to give to those of us who are His?

Thanks

Great contribution Deut that stuff looks like the makers mark all over it!😀

~Deut

 

[JaumeJ]

i dont know why He used them, im just showing that He did in fact use them. the pharisee leaders in the days of Jesus had lost their way from the Jewish leaders in the days of Hellel (100 yrs) maybe He was using the teachings to show what they had fell from. just because something is said by a pharisee or a rabbi does not make it wrong.
we use Pauls teachings all the time, he was not Jesus nor one one the 12 but still a good teacher we can learn from.

Here is the problem.. There is a denial in your posting that Jesus Christ is the Word. You are saying instead of brinig all nations the truth of the gospel, which hE AUTHORED, hE NEEDED HUMAN TEACHERS, AND this was neer written nor mentionedd by Him….. Please do not bring up how he grew in knowledge, He was human for us and for the Father…….yet He is God…..

 

[jaybird88]

Here is the problem.. There is a denial in your posting that Jesus Christ is the Word. You are saying instead of brinig all nations the truth of the gospel, which hE AUTHORED, hE NEEDED HUMAN TEACHERS, AND this was neer written nor mentionedd by Him….. Please do not bring up how he grew in knowledge, He was human for us and for the Father…….yet He is God…..

there is no mention in my post of Jesus not being the word. i would say you got my post mixed up with someone else but you even quoted my post.
my post has to do with the teacings of a rabbi called Helliel. he was teaching these almost 100 years before Jesus, after he began these teachings, Jesus used some of the teachings in His ministry. i dont get why that would upset you, this fact does not undue the gospel message, it doesnt change salvation, it doesnt mean that someone else is the Christ, it just means Jesus used a teaching that was used at an earlier time.

 

[JaumeJ]

i dont know why He used them, im just showing that He did in fact use them. the pharisee leaders in the days of Jesus had lost their way from the Jewish leaders in the days of Hellel (100 yrs) maybe He was using the teachings to show what they had fell from. just because something is said by a pharisee or a rabbi does not make it wrong.
we use Pauls teachings all the time, he was not Jesus nor one one the 12 but still a good teacher we can learn from.

To say Jesus "used them" is not giving Him the Godhead He is, you are giving rabbis the elevated state of teaching Jesus, and this denies He is the Word.

nO YOU have not stated outright He is not the Word, but you have denied Him being the Word in saying and passing on such lies. If you do not know already these are lies about Jesus needing to lern of rabbis, you simply do not believe a bit the Bible about Him, by Him an d given to all by Him. The thought is perverted.

 

[jaybird88]

To say Jesus "used them" is not giving Him the Godhead He is, you are giving rabbis the elevated state of teaching Jesus, and this denies He is the Word.

i never said rabbis taught Jesus anything, where did you hear that?
"treat others as yourself" - was taught by Hellil about 40bc
"treat others as yourself - was taught by Jesus about 20ad
40 bc is before 20 ad, there is no way around that fact. im sorry.

nO YOU have not stated outright He is not the Word, but you have denied Him being the Word in saying and passing on such lies. If you do not know already these are lies about Jesus needing to lern of rabbis, you simply do not believe a bit the Bible about Him, by Him an d given to all by Him. The thought is perverted.

its not a lie because Hellil was a real man backed up by many historical documents. its like you want to believe anything outside the bible is a lie, the tree out the window is not a tree because the bible does not say its a tree??? that makes no sense.
why do you keep saying (I am saying) Jesus "learned" from a rabbi? if Hellil used a teaching, and 50 years later Jesus used a teaching, that does not mean Jesus was taught by Hellil, for all we know they both got the teaching from the same place.
i cant believe this is so offensive to you.

 

[posthuman]

i never said rabbis taught Jesus anything, where did you hear that?
"treat others as yourself" - was taught by Hellil about 40bc
"treat others as yourself - was taught by Jesus about 20ad
40 bc is before 20 ad, there is no way around that fact. im sorry.

~ 950 BC

Do not say, “Thus I shall do to him as he has done to me;​

I will render to the man according to his work.” ​

(Proverbs 24:29)​

~ 1400 BC

Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, ​

but love your neighbor as yourself ​

(Leviticus 19:18) ​

 

[JaumeJ]

If you perceive anyone having taught something Jesus teaches before He did in the flesh it can only be because they learned it fromt he Spirit, and if this is so, they were prophets repeating the word given them by Jesus for He is the Word, befor during and after all learning of truth by men.

Now, tret others who truly believe Jesus, Yeshua, as yo would treat them if you believe Jesus, otherwise stop saying Jesus learned or adopted what the rabbis taught or wrote, this is simple wrong.

 

[posthuman]

they both got the teaching from the same place

↑

that part. i don't believe Jesus ever read Hillel or was taught under any of Hillel's disciples. i think John 7 ((which i've quoted a couple times now in this thread)) makes it clear that Jesus wasn't educated by rabbis - and all over John, Jesus says His teaching isn't his own, didn't come from men, but that He is saying exactly what the Father puts in His mouth to say.

hopefully i'm discerning this right - madhermit is of the opinion that Jesus got his teaching from reading Sirach and from rabbis like Hillel. in my first reply i may have been conflating what he is saying with what you are - at least, i replied with the idea of cutting off that line of thinking. if that's not what you are also thinking, hooray!

if Hillel read the scriptures and understood some of the same truth from it that Christ later came and taught, then it isn't that Christ 'got His teaching from' Hillel, but that these things are in the scripture already - didn't Jesus tell Nicodemus, 'you are the teacher of Israel and you don't know these things?' - so it isn't a surprise that someone should have found and understood some of them, and it doesn't mean Christ learned them from Hillel. it means that the people under the Torah do not have the excuse 'we have never been told these things' when Jesus appeared and explained them.

 

[MadHermit]

why did Mary tell the servants at Cana to do whatever He told them?

"It is possible, but not entirely clear whether Mary shares her family's disillusionment with Jesus. Consider, for example, Mark 3:21:
"When His family heard it, they went out to physical restrain Him, for they were saying, "He is out of His mind."
In the same context, Mary joins Jesus' brothers in interrupting HIs teaching session (Mark 3:31). This reference may well include Mary in the family's rejection of the validity of Jesus' teaching and ministry. In this context, Jesus seems to put down Mary's maternal role: "Who are my (true) mother and brothers?, etc." Indeed, Jesus shockingly objects to a spectator's attempt to honor His mother as "blessed (Luke 11:27-28). It is in this light that Jesus' negative evaluation of His family's reaction to Him must be taken seriously:
"Jesus said: A prophet is not without honor, except in His home town, and among His own kin, and in His own house (Mark 6:5).
"Not even His own brothers believed in Him (John 7:5)."
Many posters here inadvertently create a cartoon image of Jesus as an omnipotent and omniscient God man striding around Galillee.

To see just how false that image is, ask your self these questions:
(1) Why do the people who know Jesus best--His family get disillusioned with His public ministry and teaching? Answer: They apparently do not experience Him as spiritually or mentally remarkable during His first 30 or so earlier years...
(2) Why does Jesus need to receive the Holy Spirit at His baptism before He is able to perform miracles?
(3) Why couldn't Jesus heal or preserve alive His (step-)father, Joseph, who apparently dies before Jesus has begun His public ministry?
(4) What does the pre-existent Christ "empty Himself" of to incarnate? Answer: His divine prerogatives--omniscience, omnipotence, etc.
(5) Why does Jesus need to listen the Temple rabbis and ask them questions (Luke 2:46)?
(6) How can Jesus "grow in wisdom... and favor with God" unless He was previously less wise and less in divine favor (Luke 2:52)?"
(7) How can Jesus be tested in every way just as we are" unless He shared all our human limitations (Hebrews 4:15)?
How can Jesus "learn obedience" unless He was previously disobedient or, at least, nonobedient (Hebrews 5:7)?

 

[jaybird88]

↑

that part. i don't believe Jesus ever read Hillel or was taught under any of Hillel's disciples. i think John 7 ((which i've quoted a couple times now in this thread)) makes it clear that Jesus wasn't educated by rabbis - and all over John, Jesus says His teaching isn't his own, didn't come from men, but that He is saying exactly what the Father puts in His mouth to say.

hopefully i'm discerning this right - madhermit is of the opinion that Jesus got his teaching from reading Sirach and from rabbis like Hillel. in my first reply i may have been conflating what he is saying with what you are - at least, i replied with the idea of cutting off that line of thinking. if that's not what you are also thinking, hooray!

if Hillel read the scriptures and understood some of the same truth from it that Christ later came and taught, then it isn't that Christ 'got His teaching from' Hillel, but that these things are in the scripture already - didn't Jesus tell Nicodemus, 'you are the teacher of Israel and you don't know these things?' - so it isn't a surprise that someone should have found and understood some of them, and it doesn't mean Christ learned them from Hillel. it means that the people under the Torah do not have the excuse 'we have never been told these things' when Jesus appeared and explained them.

i dont think Jesus was taught by Hillel or that school, or very unlikely. He said His teachings came from the Father.
you said Jesus warned against rabbi teachings, as if any teaching was bad, that i dont agree with. i think Jesus was against the Jerusalem religious leadership which was mostly pharisee. those leaders IMO were never legit pharisees to begin with, they were herod/roman insiders. all temple leaders were appointed by rome/herod. men like zachariah served in the temple and men like him were ran out.
i think its important to remember teachers like Hillel and Zachariah who were Jewish men. just because one was born Jewish or born into the pharisee school of thought does not make them evil, things were much more complex in Jerusalem at that time. the Jews never asked for rome to occupy them and they didnt ask for herod to be king, rome and herod were evil and the majority of Jews didnt care for either.

 

[posthuman]

"It is possible, but not entirely clear whether Mary shares her family's disillusionment with Jesus. Consider, for example, Mark 3:21:
"When His family heard it, they went out to physical restrain Him, for they were saying, "He is out of His mind."
In the same context, Mary joins Jesus' brothers in interrupting HIs teaching session (Mark 3:31). This reference may well include Mary in the family's rejection of the validity of Jesus' teaching and ministry. In this context, Jesus seems to put down Mary's maternal role: "Who are my (true) mother and brothers?, etc." Indeed, Jesus shockingly objects to a spectator's attempt to honor His mother as "blessed (Luke 11:27-28). It is in this light that Jesus' negative evaluation of His family's reaction to Him must be taken seriously:
"Jesus said: A prophet is not without honor, except in His home town, and among His own kin, and in His own house (Mark 6:5).
"Not even His own brothers believed in Him (John 7:5)."
Many posters here inadvertently create a cartoon image of Jesus as an omnipotent and omniscient God man striding around Galillee.

To see just how false that image is, ask your self these questions:
(1) Why do the people who know Jesus best--His family get disillusioned with His public ministry and teaching? Answer: They apparently do not experience Him as spiritually or mentally remarkable during His first 30 or so earlier years...
(2) Why does Jesus need to receive the Holy Spirit at His baptism before He is able to perform miracles?
(3) Why couldn't Jesus heal or preserve alive His (step-)father, Joseph, who apparently dies before Jesus has begun His public ministry?
(4) What does the pre-existent Christ "empty Himself" of to incarnate? Answer: His divine prerogatives--omniscience, omnipotence, etc.
(5) Why does Jesus need to listen the Temple rabbis and ask them questions (Luke 2:46)?
(6) How can Jesus "grow in wisdom... and favor with God" unless He was previously less wise and less in divine favor (Luke 2:52)?"
(7) How can Jesus be tested in every way just as we are" unless He shared all our human limitations (Hebrews 4:15)?
How can Jesus "learn obedience" unless He was previously disobedient or, at least, nonobedient (Hebrews 5:7)?

why does God have to be showing you miraculous signs all the time else He's not God?

 

[posthuman]

you said Jesus warned against rabbi teachings, as if any teaching was bad, that i dont agree with.

that wasn't me..

i just said, He didn't get any of His teaching from men. of course that doesn't mean no one ever found knowledge of the truth -

no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; ​

neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, ​

and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.
(Matthew 11:27) ​

if Hillel knew the Father, it is because the Son revealed Him to Hillel

 

[jaybird88]

that wasn't me..

i just said, He didn't get any of His teaching from men. of course that doesn't mean no one ever found knowledge of the truth -

no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; ​

neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, ​

and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him. ​

(Matthew 11:27) ​

if Hillel knew the Father, it is because the Son revealed Him to Hillel

your right, it was JaumeJ, i get mixed up sometimes.

IMO there have been several that knew the Father, Jesus said all you have to do is seek Him and He will lead you where you need to go.

 

[MadHermit]

Be very clear of the 2 types of damage your so-called high view of Jesus' incarnation does. (1) It commits the ancient heresy of Docetism which denies the full humanity of Jesus. (2) it makes a sham out of Jesus' example that believers are supposed to follow by implying that His divine nature gave Him an incredible advantage over us in living an obedient and sinless life: "...we have one [Jesus] who in every respect has been tested just as we are, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15)." And of course no one has directly challenged the specifics of my claim that Jesus' life was a course in lifelong learning just as ours is.

 

[posthuman]

Be very clear of the 2 types of damage your so-called high view of Jesus' incarnation does. (1) It commits the ancient heresy of Docetism which denies the full humanity of Jesus. (2) it makes a sham out of Jesus' example that believers are supposed to follow by implying that His divine nature gave Him an incredible advantage over us in living an obedient and sinless life: "...we have one [Jesus] who in every respect has been tested just as we are, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15)." And of course no one has directly challenged the specifics of my claim that Jesus' life was a course in lifelong learning just as ours is.

i have not said Christ didn't fully take on humanity, i have not said striving to live in righteousness is a fool's errand, but i have quoted John 7 twice expressly showing that Jesus did not receive any kind of theological education under any rabbi or teacher of the law.

 

[garee]

The word translated GOD is in the Genitive Case in the Greek. The NIV in which you are using here is ignoring that. If one must translate Morph to nature. Then it must read, who being in the very nature of GOD, not the very nature GOD.

There are other issues too. But if this post here is for naught then there is no reason to go into the others. Outside of that it will suffice to leave the following for your consideration.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(Gen 1:27 KJV)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
(2Co 5:17-20 KJV)
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
(Heb 2:10-11 KJV)

God who is not a man as us has no nature. Men are quick to give him one. He is supernatural without nature as a beginning of Spirit life or end thereof. He creates natures as beginning but of His own self has no nature.

Angels as created being do have a beginning (nature). But in respect to the spiritual seed of life a new spirit life is given no nature . Christ the unseen seed of Abraham the seed of faith. .Jesus took on the incorruptible seed as our high Priest, continually without nature.

Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham

 

[tourist]

When I first glanced at the title of your thread I thought it was a thread about starch. I prefer Argo but that's just me.

 

[tourist]

He needed to learn apparently.
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Maybe I can increase in wisdom and stature as well?

 

[JaumeJ]

Here is Jesus being briefed on His first Advent.
Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
Zec 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
Zec 3:6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
Zec 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
Zec 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zec 3:10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

 

[Nehemiah6]

why does God have to be showing you miraculous signs all the time else He's not God?

Unbelief requires signs.