Not By Works

[GodsGrace101]

Luke 22:31-32

Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial
(Matt. 26:31–35; Mark 14:27–31; John 13:36–38)
31 And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”

Peter did not keep the faith as such, he failed.
Jesus said that he prayed his faith should not fail.
But we notice Jesus said "And when the have returned to me"

So Peters salvation was not threatened and never in doubt in the mind and words of Jesus.

That's a genuine faith, a genuine faith in Jesus that will always come back to Jesus.
Jesus said "I will not lose one of them given to me"

I like you will always warn against standing against his Gospel of salvation if I disagree with the doctrine of the said gospel.

I would never stand against loving mankind.

But that is not the gospel.

Many great people and not great people love mankind, but that does not save them because they do not believe in God or Jesus

Hi B,,,,

Can't hang around tonight...
But just caught the above randomly...
Do you realize that it proves OSAS is wrong?

Why else would Jesus pray that someone's faith should not fail?
Surely it means, then, that it's possible.

Jesus even uses the expression "return to me" which implies that they left at some point.

We must stay close to Jesus and follow Him in order to be saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are washed, made clean, justified, made the righteousness of Jesus, sanctified, made holy, made perfect, when we are saved.
Then we live our lives up to that.

What about Babies? What abut children (Spiritual)?

Not everyone becomes an adult. Paul proved that when he called the corinthian believers children, not able to handle meat.

do you think people can lose salvation? Be honest.

 

[Endoscopy]

Is calling someone utterly lost any different from saying to them "God help your soul?

The issue is how does that help a person come to Christ? Confrontation hardly ever works. People just respond defensively and do not really listen. At 71 and been involved in many evangelism outreach programs I found cold calling gives extremely poor results. What works best is becoming a friend with unsaved people. I mean a real friend. They will see in you something different and will eventually ask you about it. Then and only then proclaim the gospel message. At that point you need a canned response ready to use. The Apostles Creed is a good start. Then you can explain the details. Friendship first and wait for them to ask is very important. Patience is required.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so, were you a witness to His fruit and blessings when you said that this place was " full of old bitter retired people ??

was that a Holy Sprit outburst when you said this ?

Again, They can not see their own sin, They are hypocrites. Thats why I refuse to talk to them anymore..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh you members can call me every hateful false thing but I can't say I don't believe in belief without obedience?

You believe obedience is required for salvation

We believe obedience is a RESULT of salvation.

Can’t you see the difference?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul did not still do things that qualified himself as a chief of sinners!

Paul called himself chief (present tense) of all sinners.

Paul considered his life as a whole. He NEVER spoke past tense. Like so many want to claim.

Paul understood what sin was.. WHen you finally understand it, You will also understand why Paul said what he said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i am neither old or retired.

getting a little testy , aren't we? be careful, this is where you usually get banned.

As I said earlier. People can not change, (unless Christ changes them) their true being will always show forth..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Pentecostals are faith alone too.

Not all of them

Some like you want to earn their salvation instead of falling and giving Christ their eternity.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Pentecostals CLAIM faith alone, but they are not faith alone actually. Its persevere to the end to be saved. And depending on the brand, sometimes you have to speak in tongues to be saved too, often water baptized as well.
But I will grant you there might be some faith alone pentecostals out there, That movement cares so little for Scripture that you find all kinds of ideas there, depending on who you ask.

I said that because there might be things im doing that I dont even recognize are wrong.

He knows about other churches about as well as he knows the bible

He listens to men to much I would say,, He gets his information from them and believes them instead of studying for himself.

 

[Endoscopy]

Paul called himself chief (present tense) of all sinners.

Paul considered his life as a whole. He NEVER spoke past tense. Like so many want to claim.

Paul understood what sin was.. WHen you finally understand it, You will also understand why Paul said what he said.

Sin is very simple concept. There are the 613 laws in the Torah that comprise the law. Breaking any one of them is as though you broke them all. How many know these laws? We talk about sinning but how do we know when we sin. Keep in mind Jesus stated the law is in force until heaven and earth disappear.

In addition to the 10 commandments there are the laws scattered through the Torah.

List of the 613 laws in the Torah
http://www.gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html

Discussion about the 613 laws in the Torah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

 

[dcontroversal]

Oh yeah....became a Rugby fan since learning about it...bought a couple tickets to game on Sunday afternoon....excited to go...1st game....yeah...haha I have flown like 650,000 km last few years haha crazy

Good, just visiting at the moment....my 22nd trip down......have a house here and 10 in the U.S....so....spending about 50/50 in each country.....750 PM Thursday and raining...on CC and catching a "footy" game on the tube haha

Getting negative red faces on posta like this prove that some immature idiot is just posting negative comments for fun.....

 

[dcontroversal]

no. we should not be angry witnesses . ( though I saw no anger in penned's post, he was just debunking a false teacher, as I am doing here with you ).

neither should you attempt to use your musings about your emotional experiences and your opinions as ways to witness.

this is a Bible discussion forum , not a psychiatrist's office.

feelings and emotions do NOT determine reality. facts do.

and, until you accept the proper definition of sin, then your opinions of whether you sin or not is not valid, since you are using your private opinion, not the actual definition.

Amen brother.......he is on ignore....jist like he was under the banner of Petey......once in a blue moon I look at his posts and then am reminded of why I do not pay attention to his drivel.......

 

[Endoscopy]

He knows about other churches about as well as he knows the bible

He listens to men to much I would say,, He gets his information from them and believes them instead of studying for himself.

The problem is how do you find out what the Bible states in context around a specific verse as well as in other parts of scripture? The only real solution is using the internet or purchasing a Systematic Theology book. They are very large and you can look up any topic and it gives every verse related to that topic. I have found the internet lacking in this regard. The book is huge and expensive. There are several out there with some representing a specific denominations point of view. Shop carefully when buying one. Try and get one not tied to a particular theology. That at times produces blind spots.

 

[BillG]

Hi Bill,
There is no neutral place here my friend.
Either you stand with repentance, turning from sin and turning to God and walking in His ways or you are not.

For as long as I live, I will die upon this reality. Anyone who condemns this is condemning Gods gospel of
salvation, and I will pray for their soul.

I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds
Acts 26:20

This is the problem with preaching and standing on Christs salvation. We live and die by our confession
of faith. Just read the Nazarene Church statement of faith, it is this clear.

Yes there is no neutral place here.
I myself will die upon this reality myself of what I believe the gospel is.

I have researched the Nazarene statement of faith.
I could not see a statement of faith on their website.
So looked at Wiki and others.

So not been able to get a full handle.

So here is my stance.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Now with regards to Romans and Ephesians

I would say and have said to people I have come alongside.

This is not the end but the beginning.

A wonderful journey but at times hard.

Then discipleship is a must.
That does not mean just telling them to be like Jesus.
It's walking with them, encouraging them to be like Jesus.
But I will always seek and ask what is going on in their life.
Stuff that restricts our walk.

If there is an issue, like alcohol, gambling, gluttony, gossip and so on I would look for the cause of the affect.

I would never tell them to just stop doing it because you are a believer.

If they could just stop then they would not talk about it.

If we want to seek sinning less then we must understand why the person is stuck in a sin pattern.

Why does an alcoholic drink (and yes even believers can be alcoholics)?
Jesus came to bring healing. Yes Jesus calls for obedience but I believe he knows what can restrict that and wants to heal that.

I will post these verses

Romans 8:28
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

God works good in our life experiences. He doesn't make them good.
An alcoholic who drinks to dumb the pain of sexual abuse.
God does not that he makes the abuse good, but he promised to work good in it, the reason being

Romans 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[dcontroversal]

You could not make it any more obvious that you teach salvation by works.

The gospel is not about obtaining and maintaining salvation by works. That is a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To “believe” the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation or to maintain salvation.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who BELIEVE.

The fact that he said that he has had special knowledge revealed unto him that most don't know told me all I need to know about him.....just another false deceiver....!!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes there is no neutral place here.
I myself will die upon this reality myself of what I believe the gospel is.

I have researched the Nazarene statement of faith.
I could not see a statement of faith on their website.
So looked at Wiki and others.

So not been able to get a full handle.

So here is my stance.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Now with regards to Romans and Ephesians

I would say and have said to people I have come alongside.

This is not the end but the beginning.

A wonderful journey but at times hard.

Then discipleship is a must.
That does not mean just telling them to be like Jesus.
It's walking with them, encouraging them to be like Jesus.
But I will always seek and ask what is going on in their life.
Stuff that restricts our walk.

If there is an issue, like alcohol, gambling, gluttony, gossip and so on I would look for the cause of the affect.

I would never tell them to just stop doing it because you are a believer.

If they could just stop then they would not talk about it.

If we want to seek sinning less then we must understand why the person is stuck in a sin pattern.

Why does an alcoholic drink (and yes even believers can be alcoholics)?
Jesus came to bring healing. Yes Jesus calls for obedience but I believe he knows what can restrict that and wants to heal that.

I will post these verses

Romans 8:28
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

God works good in our life experiences. He doesn't make them good.
An alcoholic who drinks to dumb the pain of sexual abuse.
God does not that he makes the abuse good, but he promised to work good in it, the reason being

Romans 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Eternal security.....everything beyond that, good or bad is paid wages (mithos-->reward, pay or wages)

 

[BillG]

Hi B,,,,

Can't hang around tonight...
But just caught the above randomly...
Do you realize that it proves OSAS is wrong?

Why else would Jesus pray that someone's faith should not fail?
Surely it means, then, that it's possible.

Jesus even uses the expression "return to me" which implies that they left at some point.

We must stay close to Jesus and follow Him in order to be saved.

No Jesus said "When you have returned to me" not if.

Given your understanding of OSAS i would reject that all day long.

 

[Endoscopy]

Not all of them

Some like you want to earn their salvation instead of falling and giving Christ their eternity.

Too many want to believe you earn your way to heaven. One prophecy about judgement time has people before Jesus proclaiming their works for him. He replies begone I never knew you. A true believer would proclaim the grace through faith in Jesus. Any mention of works would be as evidence of their faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

So annoying, they are not reading the posts, nor do they care, just trying to be a nuisance child, new name every day.

Seems to target this thread though

Obviously one of the workers for....probably our resident Catholic that has been banned before!!

 

[GodsGrace101]

No Jesus said "When you have returned to me" not if.

Given your understanding of OSAS i would reject that all day long.

But why did Jesus pray for their faith?
Why does it need any prayer at all if it's so secure?