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Not By Works
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NO. It is about the promised new covenant to come. It is about not having to do the purification works of the law.
So you want to go against the Bible that says Abraham OBEYED AND WENT?
Paul is speaking about CIRCUMCISION and all the purification works.
He said they had faith and what good is it without works.
Faith alone is dead. Even demons who cannot get saved believe and do something!
So you want to go against the Bible that says Abraham OBEYED AND WENT?
Paul is speaking about CIRCUMCISION and all the purification works.
He said they had faith and what good is it without works.
Faith alone is dead. Even demons who cannot get saved believe and do something!
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Faith without works is called mere believe (even demons believe)
The bible says we are saved by FAITH
How can one be saved if they do not have FAITH?
How can I as a person who CLAIMS to have faith know my faith is REAL?
I will have works.
All you proved is you have a misunderstanding of Gods word. And WHO IT was james was trying to talk to (He was telling people to test their OWN FAITH to see if it was real. Not people like you to test OTHER PEOPLES FAITH to see if they are real or not.
Dead faith is not faith. It is NOTHING.
Jesus said faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain. You know how small a mustard seed is? The person whome Jesus healed his daughter said he believed, but begged God to help him with his unbelief. Proving he had at least a small amount of faith.
These people in james did not even have that much faith, they had ZERO ZIP NADA faith.
How can a person who has ZERO faith be saved? They CAN’T
Paul said those who have faith WORK “for we are his workmanship created for good works)
James said if we do not have the works PAUL said we would have by being saved, then we do not have the FAITH paul said we must have to be saved.
The bible says we are saved by FAITH
How can one be saved if they do not have FAITH?
How can I as a person who CLAIMS to have faith know my faith is REAL?
I will have works.
All you proved is you have a misunderstanding of Gods word. And WHO IT was james was trying to talk to (He was telling people to test their OWN FAITH to see if it was real. Not people like you to test OTHER PEOPLES FAITH to see if they are real or not.
Dead faith is not faith. It is NOTHING.
Jesus said faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain. You know how small a mustard seed is? The person whome Jesus healed his daughter said he believed, but begged God to help him with his unbelief. Proving he had at least a small amount of faith.
These people in james did not even have that much faith, they had ZERO ZIP NADA faith.
How can a person who has ZERO faith be saved? They CAN’T
Paul said those who have faith WORK “for we are his workmanship created for good works)
James said if we do not have the works PAUL said we would have by being saved, then we do not have the FAITH paul said we must have to be saved.
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Lol.. Let me guess. You belie3ve one has to be water baptised to be saved?
ABRAHAM BELIEVED, Gen 15. THAT IS WHY HE WAS MADE RIGHTEOUS.
Gen 26 is the AFTERAFECTS of his FAITH, that made him RIGHT before God
Circumcision never cleansed anybody. Many jews got circumcised yet never knew God So you have a major delima
ABRAHAM BELIEVED, Gen 15. THAT IS WHY HE WAS MADE RIGHTEOUS.
Gen 26 is the AFTERAFECTS of his FAITH, that made him RIGHT before God
Circumcision never cleansed anybody. Many jews got circumcised yet never knew God So you have a major delima
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The point is that Missionary had the WRONG MOTIVE for Serving the LORD. ONLY AGAPE LOVE is the Pure Motive.
Proverbs 16:2 (GW)
2 A person thinks all his ways are pure, but the LORD weighs motives.
Philippians 1:15-17 (NASB)
15 Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will;
16 the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel;
17 the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment.
Proverbs 16:2 (GW)
2 A person thinks all his ways are pure, but the LORD weighs motives.
Philippians 1:15-17 (NASB)
15 Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will;
16 the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel;
17 the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment.
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This point you raise I have never questioned before. It is obvious Abraham responded to God
and this response was obedience. The offering of Issac demonstrated his faith to which God
responds,
"Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
Gen 22:12
It was Abrahams obedience that showed his faith. And it was this faith that was reconned as
righteousness. Some seem to find this connection impossible, but then for them behaviour is
irrelevant, and faith is just a believe with not guarantee of action, which in James words is
dead. A pilot flies planes, one who knows all the theory is just a student. God is interested in
pilots not students. Students could be rubbish or good, you only know when they actually fly.
With all the odd teaching from the old testament, what is good and what is evil in the teachers
eyes is often very unexpected. One is only actions by believers are good, no unbeliever can do
anything good or worthy of reward. It comes unstuck when non Israelities doing good things
and the Lord rewarding them. Abimelech is spared because he did not defile Sarah.
God recognised an unbeliever and kept him from sin. Not possible in their theology.
and this response was obedience. The offering of Issac demonstrated his faith to which God
responds,
"Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
Gen 22:12
It was Abrahams obedience that showed his faith. And it was this faith that was reconned as
righteousness. Some seem to find this connection impossible, but then for them behaviour is
irrelevant, and faith is just a believe with not guarantee of action, which in James words is
dead. A pilot flies planes, one who knows all the theory is just a student. God is interested in
pilots not students. Students could be rubbish or good, you only know when they actually fly.
With all the odd teaching from the old testament, what is good and what is evil in the teachers
eyes is often very unexpected. One is only actions by believers are good, no unbeliever can do
anything good or worthy of reward. It comes unstuck when non Israelities doing good things
and the Lord rewarding them. Abimelech is spared because he did not defile Sarah.
God recognised an unbeliever and kept him from sin. Not possible in their theology.
Paul said what God told him to say!
Yes, God really did say that.
We have to believe and obey NO MATTER WHAT GOD tells us to do.
At the time, God told Abraham many things to do and Abraham did it.
We still have to obey God; we just have to believe that we don't have to purify ourselves anymore because Jesus does it now.
Jesus is the one who leads me. You are the one who was taught by men, right? You say what Calvinists and Lutherans say.
Yes, God really did say that.
We have to believe and obey NO MATTER WHAT GOD tells us to do.
At the time, God told Abraham many things to do and Abraham did it.
We still have to obey God; we just have to believe that we don't have to purify ourselves anymore because Jesus does it now.
Jesus is the one who leads me. You are the one who was taught by men, right? You say what Calvinists and Lutherans say.
Legalism does fail. You cannot love God without a heart change.
People have tried for centuries to obey rules without knowing how and why, and failed.
It is why the pharisees failed. There hearts were not purified and they tried to obey without
the right foundations.
This is Jesus's criticism of them.
People have tried for centuries to obey rules without knowing how and why, and failed.
It is why the pharisees failed. There hearts were not purified and they tried to obey without
the right foundations.
This is Jesus's criticism of them.
Did you learn from someone here?
Don't just make a statement and run!
WHY is it a false dichotomy?
Who is following Jesus?
Those that say we should obey Him...
or those that say it's not necessary.
Simple enough.
On this thread it seems to be the opposite...
those that say obedience is not necessary believe they are saved
and tell the ones who believe obedience IS necessary that they're teaching a fake gospel.
Interesting.
A widespread false teaching in the evangelical church today is that you can accept Jesus as your Savior, but that obeying Him as Lord of your life is optional.
Those who promote this teaching mistakenly think that they are preserving the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith, apart from human works. They do not deny the importance of submitting to Christ as Lord, but they do insist that it has nothing to do with saving faith.
And so they teach that it is possible for a person truly to believe in Christ as Savior even though he never submits to Him as Lord.
I believe that this teaching rests on a mistaken notion of the nature of saving faith and that it gives false assurance to many who think they are Christians, but are not truly saved. Scripture is clear that without holiness, no one will see the Lord (Heb. 12:14).
Genuine saving faith always results in a life of progressive godliness. If a person claims to be saved, but has no hunger for God’s Word, no growing hatred of sin, and no growth in godly living, he needs to examine whether he is truly in the faith (2 Cor. 13:5).
As Jesus comes to the end of a sermon in which He has said some difficult things, He drives home the necessity of obeying what He has taught. He asks pointedly, “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?”
Then He concludes with His familiar parable of two men building separate houses. The first lays a foundation on the rock, so that his house stands firm when the flood bursts against it. The second foolishly builds his house without the proper foundation, so that it is destroyed by the flood. In the parable, the foundation is obedience to Christ’s teaching.
The man who did not build on the foundation heard Jesus’ teaching. He agreed with it superficially, as seen by the fact that he calls Jesus “Lord.” But he did not obey Jesus’ teaching, resulting in tragic loss. Thus Jesus is showing us that …
Obedience to Christ is not optional because it is at the very foundation of the Christian life.
source: https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-28-why-obedience-not-optional-luke-646-49
Don't just make a statement and run!
WHY is it a false dichotomy?
Who is following Jesus?
Those that say we should obey Him...
or those that say it's not necessary.
Simple enough.
On this thread it seems to be the opposite...
those that say obedience is not necessary believe they are saved
and tell the ones who believe obedience IS necessary that they're teaching a fake gospel.
Interesting.
A widespread false teaching in the evangelical church today is that you can accept Jesus as your Savior, but that obeying Him as Lord of your life is optional.
Those who promote this teaching mistakenly think that they are preserving the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith, apart from human works. They do not deny the importance of submitting to Christ as Lord, but they do insist that it has nothing to do with saving faith.
And so they teach that it is possible for a person truly to believe in Christ as Savior even though he never submits to Him as Lord.
I believe that this teaching rests on a mistaken notion of the nature of saving faith and that it gives false assurance to many who think they are Christians, but are not truly saved. Scripture is clear that without holiness, no one will see the Lord (Heb. 12:14).
Genuine saving faith always results in a life of progressive godliness. If a person claims to be saved, but has no hunger for God’s Word, no growing hatred of sin, and no growth in godly living, he needs to examine whether he is truly in the faith (2 Cor. 13:5).
As Jesus comes to the end of a sermon in which He has said some difficult things, He drives home the necessity of obeying what He has taught. He asks pointedly, “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?”
Then He concludes with His familiar parable of two men building separate houses. The first lays a foundation on the rock, so that his house stands firm when the flood bursts against it. The second foolishly builds his house without the proper foundation, so that it is destroyed by the flood. In the parable, the foundation is obedience to Christ’s teaching.
The man who did not build on the foundation heard Jesus’ teaching. He agreed with it superficially, as seen by the fact that he calls Jesus “Lord.” But he did not obey Jesus’ teaching, resulting in tragic loss. Thus Jesus is showing us that …
Obedience to Christ is not optional because it is at the very foundation of the Christian life.
source: https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-28-why-obedience-not-optional-luke-646-49
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rom 4: What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was [b]accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
NOTHIN in here about ANY NEW COVENANT DUDE
IT IS ABOUT BEING JUSTIFIED (declaired righteous) BEFORE GOD.
It says the same thing eph 4 says, Not of works lest anyone should boast.
A wage is earned for good works. Thats why you go to work for. To earn a wage. An athlete works so he can earn the prize. Or the reward. And all these people have the ability to BOAST of their work. Because they EARNED THESE REWARDS.
Paul stated a fact, IF ABRAHAM was FOUND because of all his WORKS. Then he can BOAST. Because he EARNED HIS SALVATION.
You need to go to language school. Far to many words you evidently have no understanding of what they mean.
The fact is, Of one works for salvation, they invcure a DEBT. Why? Because your WoRK can not cause forgiveness of sin.
The penaty of sin is death, Not being circumcised, Not being baptised. Not obeying the law (you have faithed to do this anyway) it is DEATH, The ONLY way you can be purified is by the blood of the lamb. What part of this do you fail to comprehend?
Sorry, but disagreeing with your interpretation is not going against the bible. Get over yourself. Your pride will be broken. If not by people of God trying to show you the truth, by God himself.
He said they CLAIMED to have faith
James 2: What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
It does not say they had faith.. Stop trying to change the word of God to fit your belief system.
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That is not a rebuke for obeying God.
That scripture is about people making excuses for the wrong they do.
How do you think you can use this scripture as proof? The one preaching out of ENVY and STRIFE are NOT obeying.
I preach obedience to Christ and about there is never ever a wrong way or time to obey.
That scripture is about people making excuses for the wrong they do.
How do you think you can use this scripture as proof? The one preaching out of ENVY and STRIFE are NOT obeying.
I preach obedience to Christ and about there is never ever a wrong way or time to obey.
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If one is going to be wrong about anything, it's better to be wrong "in Christ" trusting in the righteousness that is by faith. The righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. That is accepted in the beloved.
Otherwards if one is wrong and is trusting in self works in any capacity, then one is outside. Looking in through the window, and has not gone through the door.
I'm not against you GG, but with UG am very concerned.
Otherwards if one is wrong and is trusting in self works in any capacity, then one is outside. Looking in through the window, and has not gone through the door.
I'm not against you GG, but with UG am very concerned.
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Paul did not write Gen 15: 6 dude. Moses wrote what God told him to say.
“ABRAHAM BELIEVED”
You are hurting your argument because your not paying attention..
Gen 15: 6 - and ABRAHAM BELIEEVD GOD and it was accounted to him as righteousness
Your adding to the word dude. STOP IT. If you continue this, You will be put in my prayer bin..
Jesus does not lead you, If he did you would believe what he said. You mock his death and the cross with your self righteous gspel of works..
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Yes...UG,,,
I'd like YOU to be an ally.
You're so close and yet so far....
Here is what two different persons that learned under JOHN THE APOSTLE have to say about works:
We are justified by our works and not our words. Clement of Rome (c. 96), 1.13.
. . . that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. . . . Faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. . . . The tree is made manifest by its fruit. So those who profess themselves to be Christians will be recognized by their conduct. . . . It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not be one. Ignatius (c. 105), 1.51-55.
And please don't say they weren't inspired....these are the same ECFs that put together the very same bible you're reading to learn about salvation...except you've gone astray somehow.
I'd like YOU to be an ally.
You're so close and yet so far....
Here is what two different persons that learned under JOHN THE APOSTLE have to say about works:
We are justified by our works and not our words. Clement of Rome (c. 96), 1.13.
. . . that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. . . . Faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. . . . The tree is made manifest by its fruit. So those who profess themselves to be Christians will be recognized by their conduct. . . . It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not be one. Ignatius (c. 105), 1.51-55.
And please don't say they weren't inspired....these are the same ECFs that put together the very same bible you're reading to learn about salvation...except you've gone astray somehow.
The thief did a lot of things that Jesus says to do to get saved.
The one thief on the cross feared God; God’s salvation is near those who fear Him.
The thief on the cross believed Jesus; the work of God is to believe in the one He sent.
The thief on the cross humbled himself. God pleads with people to be humble or they will never enter.
The thief admitted his sins, this is confession; he also admitted he deserved his punishment, that is regret and repentance for his sin.
The thief on the cross confessed Jesus in front of others; Jesus says whoever acknowledges him before others, he will also acknowledge before his Father in heaven.
The thief was ready to wait on Jesus. We are told to wait on the Lord.
The thief also called on the name of the Lord, when he told Jesus to remember him when he got to his kingdom. The Bible says for us to call on the name of the Lord after repenting of our sins.
The criminal on the cross obeyed a lot of things that Jesus says is the reason he saves someone.
You can't preach that truth to anyone?
You want to keep making it shameful and wrong to preach what I do by making it some kind of shameful legalism, and a condemned works salvation?
You are wrong about that.
Faith is alone many times with many people.
Jesus gives his Spirit to those who believe and obey him. He fills our hearts with his love which makes some want to keep doing right. However, even then some people don't do right.
Obeying Jesus isn't ever wrong, no matter how many ways you try to degrade it.
The one thief on the cross feared God; God’s salvation is near those who fear Him.
The thief on the cross believed Jesus; the work of God is to believe in the one He sent.
The thief on the cross humbled himself. God pleads with people to be humble or they will never enter.
The thief admitted his sins, this is confession; he also admitted he deserved his punishment, that is regret and repentance for his sin.
The thief on the cross confessed Jesus in front of others; Jesus says whoever acknowledges him before others, he will also acknowledge before his Father in heaven.
The thief was ready to wait on Jesus. We are told to wait on the Lord.
The thief also called on the name of the Lord, when he told Jesus to remember him when he got to his kingdom. The Bible says for us to call on the name of the Lord after repenting of our sins.
The criminal on the cross obeyed a lot of things that Jesus says is the reason he saves someone.
You can't preach that truth to anyone?
You want to keep making it shameful and wrong to preach what I do by making it some kind of shameful legalism, and a condemned works salvation?
You are wrong about that.
Faith is alone many times with many people.
Jesus gives his Spirit to those who believe and obey him. He fills our hearts with his love which makes some want to keep doing right. However, even then some people don't do right.
Obeying Jesus isn't ever wrong, no matter how many ways you try to degrade it.
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Well, happily for me,,, God is the judge.
About being wrong...
Do you know about Paschal's Wager?
It's valid here too.
If I'm going to be wrong,,,,
I'd rather be wrong OBEYING God rather than in insisting it's not necessary or that works are wrong or not necessary for salvation.
If they aren't, why did the writers speak so much about them?
About being wrong...
Do you know about Paschal's Wager?
It's valid here too.
If I'm going to be wrong,,,,
I'd rather be wrong OBEYING God rather than in insisting it's not necessary or that works are wrong or not necessary for salvation.
If they aren't, why did the writers speak so much about them?
Hebrews 13:16
And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
1 Peter 3:17
For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
And Jesus Himself said about works/good deeds that we will be judged by them...For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
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