Not By Works

GodsGrace101 · Mar 12, 2019

What's the matter Dan....
The first article you posted didn't agree with you?
And it was catholic...

So you found a catholic article that agrees with you?

This is why I hate to post commentators....we each can find one that agrees with us (most time).

Quite frankly, I left the CC about 40 years ago and I'm not interested in it at all.

I will say that many misquote what they teach...as YOU are doing right now...

The first article you posted is the correct one. Each apologist has their own view.
The church has changed since the canons and since the Council of Trent.

To me talking about the CC is a waste of my time and yours.

Hevosmies · Mar 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

Me personally I believe the catholic church really watered down after the second vatican council.

I know some catholics who call themselves "pre-Vatican 2" catholics.

GodsGrace101 · Mar 12, 2019

Hevosmies said:

This is true.
I have some friends that won't go to a catholic bible study because the priest is too young and post-vatican council II.

I don't think it's watering down though...
I think it's more in line with having some kind of personal relationship with Jesus so we could have HIS power in our lives. This was missing from the CC before...They would say we have to follow the 10 commandments,,,but never HOW.

mailmandan · Mar 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

The first article proved me right about what they teach about works of the law. The Roman Catholic Church still teaches that we are saved by faith “plus works.” Don’t be so gullible and once again, don’t believe their sugarcoated doubletalk.

FollowHisSteps · Mar 12, 2019

mailmandan said:

It is interesting talking about different Christian churches and their utterances.
But essentially I am interested in what Jesus means and where His heart is for me,
and those I witness to.

So imagine my problem. I am told by some believers I am leading people to hell preaching
about Christs empowering us to be like Him. But then I would be preaching that I expect the sinners
to continue in their sin and defeat and Gods intention is to leave them desperately poor, blind and
disfunctional, not able to love or see the way through, but He will save them at the end, and
sort it all out then.

The reason I follow Jesus is because He is someone I want to be like, to know love and share it,
to reach out to others and get alongside them, to heal and bring joy to peoples hearts and free them
from the destruction and death brings upon our lives.

So my passion is righteousness, but not as a way of self justification, but because it is life itself.
Do we want to be trapped by envy, hatred, bitterness, tearing at each other and trying to destroy one
another? Much better would be able to see anothers need and help them fulfil it, to say a kind word
and uplift them in prayer and show love and sympathy were possible.

The feeling I get from some is they hate righteousness, they hate Jesus's way of walking and His
expressions of support. But does that not mean they actually hate Jesus.

This is my command: Love each other.
"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
John 15:17-19

How you read what I write demonstrates your heart and its condition.
His sheep love Jesus and His ways. It is why they listen and follow. So what are you?
Jesus's door is always open and He will listen to those who call, because from eternity He
chose you, though you may not have realised it yet. Thank you Jesus.

FollowHisSteps · Mar 12, 2019

mailmandan said:

I am reminded of something I learnt meeting a roman catholic priest serving God.
Some know the Lord, and truly wish to serve Him. I cannot judge them, but just
pray the Lord leads them into His ways.

Once you lose the individual into an organisation, you lose Jesus. Because Jesus
speaks to us as individuals and our walk not our affiliations. Purify the heart and
everything else follows. It is why so many get things so wrong, because they admit
their hearts are untouchable, so do not know Jesus. It is this simple.
We only walk in the ways of Jesus because He is within through the power of the Holy
Spirit and our opening the door through repentance and faith.

And anyone can pray today to ask Jesus to come in and start His work, because this is
His eternal work and has never changed since the time of Jesus on earth.

UnderGrace · Mar 12, 2019

I condemn no one, it is what you plainly write here, your "doctrine" that is a problem to me.

It has nothing to do with the The Nazarene Church, since I have only known a handful of people that attended that church many years ago, but they never talked to me about being sinless that much I know.

FollowHisSteps said:

UG,

If you believe I promote a false gospel then so does the Nazarene church.
And if you want me to accept your accusation you have to say more than slander.

It is literally foolish to condemn a brother or sister in Christ because of a feeling or someone elses
statement. It is like looking down a barrel of a gun to test it is not loaded. You die.

It is why Jesus was very careful to warn people about judging others, especially about points of faith.
The reason being one can end up judging God Himself and His ways, and there is only one answer to
doing that. But hey the lost do not care, they are lost anyway, and randomly blast away, because their
conscience is burnt off, and nothing could happen to them anyway.

My fear over judging wrongly, is I am a saved sinner, and rely on God and His Spirit to guide me.
So often I get in the way, and do things wrong. So it takes great care and gentleness to understand
and respect anothers beliefs.

Talking here is more like being blasted by a tank, as if they are impenetrable, when they are unbelievably
vulnerable and risking much more than they realise, at almost every level. And that is the stupidity of
blasting not seeing one is often blasting oneself to pieces and not helping anything.

God bless you

UnderGrace · Mar 12, 2019

Wrong, I know exactly, when, where, how and why.

FollowHisSteps said:

Here is the contradiction. Born again except they lost their faith.
Instant entry into the divine, except one cannot say when or how or where.

And separation of a Godly walk from faith, as if there are not intertwined.
And the touch stone Isaiah 64:6 filthy rags. No righteous thing possible

Sinners are slaves to sin, the righteous are slaves to righteousness.
A slave may do some things that are opposite to their slavery, but they
always return.

In a world of free will you demonstrate what you are and the Kingdom
you ally with. For some they are always sinners and never righteous,
while others righteous, yet occasionally fall into temptation.

It is obvious to me, the sinners camp believe no one is different,
but only those who are different truly know.

UnderGrace · Mar 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

False dichotomy

UnderGrace · Mar 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

Again, another straw man

UnderGrace · Mar 12, 2019

mailmandan said:

You have had great patience, and others as well.

They are not the words @GodsGrace101 wants to read.

As much it is presented as lets discuss scripture ...in the end it about finding allies or trying to influence others to be allies.

I remember round one.....the round from many moons ago

FollowHisSteps · Mar 12, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Hi UG,

This is the point about discussions.
When Jesus says perfect, what does He mean?
When Paul says when we reach being perfect, what does he mean?

I do not like the term sinless, as it is used in an imprecise way.
The biblical term is walking in righteousness, which Paul is very keen on using.
To those so burdened down by sin and guilt, and never reach a feeling of being cleansed
and purified in the Lord, for whatever reason, this sounds like an alien world.

It is why historically the "Holiness" movement was called this, because of their emphasis
on learning what it meant to walk like Jesus. And this is my walk, and my aspiration.
I do not walk like Jesus because I do not fully know what this means, but I want to aspire
to it.

And if you know people who went to a Nazarene church it is their distinctive position.
And it will always be we aspire to and never know if we have arrived because only the Lord
can say. Do you not aspire to be like Jesus? Paul did

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
1 Cor 11:1

And for all the antagonism expressed this is what I am asking. But it appears there are unbelievers
here, who just want to stir up trouble. And how to I know they are unbelievers? Because their attack
is on me aspiring and sharing Jesus's word, and only the enemy does that.

UnderGrace · Mar 12, 2019

mailmandan said:

Exactly, unless the church changes its official Catechism and PRACTICES (for emphasis) it means nothing.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

FollowHisSteps · Mar 12, 2019

A question

A man comes in from work, they are covered head to toe in dirt.
They have a shower, are cleaned without a speck of dirt. They are now clean.

A sinner comes from the world. They are contaminated by sinful deeds and actions
They are cleansed and purified by the Lord, made spotless before God.
Are they now without sin? Are they now Holy, blameless and pure.

Now if one says no one can be purified and made Holy, then what is the point of the cross?
If Jesus is our example and shows the way, but no one can walk it, why show it at all?
If purity and holiness is our lives and our calling, but this is just fake and delusion,
why do Peter and Paul call us to live like this?

I hope you can see, the cross must purify and make us Holy, that Jesus is our example because
we can follow it, and purity and holiness is the way we should live because that is our calling.

I would love to see how one can come to other conclusions, because it appears this simple.
But this is only possible if one is purified and cleansed, which is obviously not happened to a
lot by their own confession, so for them, there is no fulfilment or promise possible.

FollowHisSteps · Mar 12, 2019

Repent

I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
Acts 26:20

Our hearts are transformed by faith in Jesus through repentance and know the cross in our
hearts. It is an emotional, spiritual and intellectual experience.

The first step is in recognising we need help and our hearts are lost and in a terrible state.
Secondly is in commiting oneself to a path that will lead us into life.
Third is in putting our trust and faith in Jesus and the cross to forgive our sins and free us.
Fourth is to confess our faith and start to walk the path.

YourTruthGod · Mar 12, 2019

GandalfTheWhite said:

You prove me right and yourself wrong.
You are badly mistaken about what you say about the Holy Bible and what you say about that scripture.

stonesoffire · Mar 12, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

This is an important theological point.
If all our actions are not righteous, even in the Spirit then we are sinners and not saints.

This is by definition the foundation of not being acceptable to God even while walking in Jesus.

What you are attempting to do, is to say our works are not justification of righteousness before God?
But as our works are done in and through Christ, of course they are not ours but His.

But this step of communion and doing Christs work through His people is something you cannot do.

Listen to this verse

The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
James 5:26

Your version of this would be the prayer of a sinner who is deemed righteous is powerful and effective.

The problem is if you follow this logic all men are saved, because it is not the person who is different,
only how God views them. To mitigate this, one says, no they have a new spirit, which is through faith,
so they are righteous because of this new spirit.

The problem here is a sinner with a new spirit cannot be convicted or judged for their sinful behaviour or
rebellion, so can be as lawless as they desire or not, without restriction. And this goes against all of Gods
revelation of how He deals with sinful behaviour. The sinner is fully responsible for their behaviour.

So either one has the Holy Spirit dwelling in a sinful temple, tainted and contaminated or you have a Holy
God dwelling in a purified, blameless temple, which performs works of His calling.

And this is your choice of theology. I would rather go with Paul and Gods revelation, that He truly redeems
His people and opens the way to walking in His ways and in Holiness, which may fail, but can be purified and
restored.

Hi follow

Respectfully...it's not so much in the Spirit as pertaining to flesh versus spirit. That's how we are to walk. Or live. But, when born again, we are Spirit.

Until then, we live as natural man. Born again, we are no longer natural, but of the eternal. Supernatural.

YourTruthGod · Mar 12, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

If there are people who were preaching to get Paul in trouble---then they were NOT obeying.
We have to obey Jesus---and there is never a wrong way to obey.

FollowHisSteps said:

I do not know what you are trying to convey. Could you explain more what you mean? Paul obeyed Jesus.

FollowHisSteps said:

What do you mean by about the initial start?
It is never ever wrong to obey Jesus. There isn't a wrong way to obey Jesus.

YourTruthGod · Mar 12, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

Right; but, the discussion with some of the others here is that they don't understand that circumcision of the flesh is about the old purification works of the law. They misunderstand Paul when he says 'not of works'. They don't understand that Paul is speaking of circumcision and all the other works of the law, which are the purification works.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 12, 2019

YourTruthGod said:

I'm continually posting Romans 7:1-4 (note ITS parenthetical words):

Release from the Law
(Galatians 3:15-25)

1 Or are you ignorant brothers (for I speak to those knowing the law), that the law rules over the man for as long as the time he is alive? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to the living husband; but if the husband should die, she is cleared from the law of the husband. 3 So then, if she is to another man, the husband being alive, she will be called an adulteress; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as for her not to be an adulteress, having been to another man.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through [by means of] the body of Christ, for you to belong to another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.

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