Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
How could it have nothing to do with Catholicism when they make the same argument about works of the law and good works? Other works-salvationists make the same argument that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works and here is an example below from a statement made by someone who attends the church of Christ:

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit." :cautious:

The N.T. speaks against works in general AS THE BASIS OR MEANS BY WHICH WE RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and NOT based on the merits of our works. Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. 2 Timothy 1:9 - who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. So works are not merely limited to specific works of the law, but works in general and you cannot dissect good works from the law (Matthew 22:37-40)

This covers everything. Which good works are "completely detached" from loving God and our neighbor as ourself? The bases are all covered.

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. So please explain to me, which good works could a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

I'm not speaking against good works as the FRUIT of salvation, but only as the ROOT of salvation. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). You are still hung up on type 2 works salvation.
Obviously we're speaking past each other here.
You keep saying that works do not save.
I AGREE.

Then you say that works are the fruit of salvation.
I'm not hung up on anything....

Why don't you reply to that long list of verses I posted?
They are to BELIEVERS.
Are we supposed to obey God or not?
Easy yes or no question.

Also, I feel we need to stop speaking about the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST.
Jesus FINISHED HIS work.....that doesn't mean YOU need do nothing.
He did what He was supposed to do,,,,now it's up to us.

This is accomplished by the sanctification of our spirit and thus our soul,,,since our spirit affects our soul.

We must cooperate with Godi in this process. It is not ONLY up to GOD, but also our cooperation:

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Without sanctification, no one will see the Lord.
Hebrews 12:14:
Pursue peace with all people, and sanctification, without which no one will see the Lord.”

I'd say that works of obedience
do not HELP to save us....they are proof of our salvation.
If we do not demonstrate any works,,we most probably are not saved.
These are the visible effects of the Holy Spirit:
Galatians 5.22.....

If we do not show the above fruit...do we still have the Holy Spirit?
I say no. And Paul would agree or he would not have written the above verse.

Again,,,,you post Titus 3:5...it's painfully apparent to me that there is some confusion as to Justification and Sanctification. If one loses their sanctification, by default, they also lose their justification.

Could we at least agree on the difference between the two?
You insist on talking about Justification....and I'm on to Sanctification.
How many times must you be born from above? Once. Done. Now move on.

Yes. I can dissect good works from the Law. Must I post all those verses again?
They're written to BELIVIERS. Beliviers are already saved and do not need to be saved again every time they sin. (they need only feel sorry and ask forgiveness).

Works of the Law are in the MOSAIC COVENANT. Are you familiar with it?
We are not in the Mosaic Covenant but in the New Covenant...Are you familiar with it?
If yes, then please tell us the difference since Jesus said he did not come to abolish the Law...but to make it MORE DIFFICULT.
Mathew 5.........

Clothing the naked is the commandment, as you've stated.
So? I don't understand your point.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.....

Yes. It's in Leviticus...Jesus was well-trained in the O.T.
So???? FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD. THIS is the whole point.
How are works not necessary if Jesus Himself said so?

The Two Great Commandments cover all the 9/10.
No problem there....I spent years teaching this to kids.
I don't understand your point.....

Are we to do good deeds or not?

page 1 of 2
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
page 2 of 2


Here are those verses again:

Galatians 6:9
And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Colossians 3:17
And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Titus 2:7-9
Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us. Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,

Philippians 2:13
For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Galatians 5:19-26
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. ...

James 1:27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Titus 3:14
And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.

Colossians 3:23
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,

Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Matthew 6:1
Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

3 John 1:11
Beloved, do not imitate evil but imitate good. Whoever does good is from God; whoever does evil has not seen God.

James 2:14-17
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

1 Timothy 6:18
They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Hebrews 13:16
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Not one of these passages of scripture above teach that we are saved BY works. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.

*In regards to James 2:14-26, which seems to be the main passage of scripture that works-salvationists use to try and support salvation by works, see post #808 from the link below:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...saved-always-saved.136509/page-41#post3374477
Did I say they do?

I said....

They are written TO BELIEVERS....
BELIEVERS are exhorted to DO GOOD WORKS AND DEEDS.

They are evidence of faith in Christ and in our salvation, as you've stated.

No good works........no salvation.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
I don't need some deceptive individual who peddles false doctrine to tell me how to live.
You claim you don't know TT, and say he will most likely be the first here to die....
Then you act as if this is a good work...
You ignore the questions of others and babble about this and that posting out of context scriptures and accusing others of not knowing Christ.
You even thought matthew 19 is an example of a man who keeps all the commandments....
You do not seem to understand the bible whatsoever....
I only see disingenuous counterfeit love, sly remarks, subtle accusations and false doctrine from you.
Thank you for this encouragement, it makes my spirit rise to Jesus.
I cannot help what you think you see, it is all in your eye.

But let me be serious. I have suggested you go to a church and be part of the body of Christ.

As a dad, who has a son of a similar age to you, I would hate to read the kind of stuff you are writing,
and the things you rejecting. But like many advice is not wanted.

A love expression of concern, is just that, accepted or rejected, God bless you.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Thank you for this encouragement, it makes my spirit rise to Jesus.
I cannot help what you think you see, it is all in your eye.

But let me be serious. I have suggested you go to a church and be part of the body of Christ.

As a dad, who has a son of a similar age to you, I would hate to read the kind of stuff you are writing,
and the things you rejecting. But like many advice is not wanted.

A love expression of concern, is just that, accepted or rejected, God bless you.

Many claims, and how would you know my age?
hm?

what were your previous account names? were any or all of them banned?


what do you believe i reject....
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
that was low. can't believe the former peterjens said this about someone else. follow his steps? who's steps? certainly not Jesus.
I was thinking that sounds exactly like him..... sometimes the fancy prose gives way and then we get to see reality.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
You are so blind.
You talk but you know nothing... it is sad...
What were the names of the previous accounts you used to post on Christianchat with?
"you know nothing"

I wonder what your job is, and how much responsibility you carry.
Those who know little judge others with a few totally dismissive words like this.

Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.
Prov 23:9

A discerning man keeps wisdom in view, but a fool's eyes wander to the ends of the earth.
A foolish son brings grief to his father and bitterness to the one who bore him.
It is not good to punish an innocent man, or to flog officials for their integrity.
Prov 17:24-26
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,633
113

At church I help do the projector for the verses, often an underrated ministry in the body.
Worship and dwell in Christ, and much that is evil and sinful will be seen in a different light.
His word is sharper than a two edged sword.

So dwell in it.
If you go to a hellsong church, GET OUT! That is a wild church if i've ever seen one. Part of the apostasy, paving the way for the antichrist, coming up soon.

These guys make me look like the Hulk in comparison! Look at how effeminate they look, oy vey! I cant imagine the Apostle Paul being a million miles from that!
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I don't need some deceptive individual who peddles false doctrine to tell me how to live.

You claim you don't know TT, and say he will most likely be the first here to die....

Then you act as if this is a good work...

You ignore the questions of others and babble about this and that posting out of context scriptures and accusing others of not knowing Christ.

You even thought matthew 19 is an example of a man who keeps all the commandments....

You do not seem to understand the bible whatsoever....

I only see disingenuous counterfeit love, sly remarks, subtle accusations and false doctrine from you.
You don't know what false doctrine is.
You don't know what the other member meant about TT.
TT does not show God's love for mankind....this is serioius.
We should all live our day as if it were out last....
This is not practiced on this thread....I see much hate here.

The fruits of the spirit are:




Do YOU see this fruit here?
And who does NOT have this fruit?
Who are those that show hatred?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Many claims, and how would you know my age?
hm?
what were your previous account names? were any or all of them banned?
what do you believe i reject....
My friend, I cannot speak with you.
Maybe another time, but there is nothing that can be gained.

In simple interactions, bebasing another only warns of the folly and violence that this individual is full of.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.
Prov 23:9
You don't know what false doctrine is.
You don't know what the other member meant about TT.
TT does not show God's love for mankind....this is serioius.
We should all live our day as if it were out last....
This is not practiced on this thread....I see much hate here.

The fruits of the spirit are:




Do YOU see this fruit here?
And who does NOT have this fruit?
Who are those that show hatred?

do you want me quote your posts and his posts void of love?

you are functioning as a hypocrite as you speak of TT

and i know enough to see anyone who says "salvation is earned' (you) is missing the mark fran
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
do you want me quote your posts and his posts void of love?

you are functioning as a hypocrite as you speak of TT

and i know enough to see anyone who says "salvation is earned' (you) is missing the mark fran
Ooops.
Your love is showing through again.
Please learn God's word....

1 John 9:10-11
9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.


11For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another




Do YOU love your brothers?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
If you go to a hellsong church, GET OUT! That is a wild church if i've ever seen one. Part of the apostasy, paving the way for the antichrist, coming up soon.

These guys make me look like the Hulk in comparison!
Hi Hevosmies,

I love you, I hope if you can bear with a brother without casting me out like refuse.
I have spent my christian life in inter denominational fellowships.
I have friends who are penticostals, charismatics, brethren, catholics, methodists.

I have been in fellowships were people were slain in the Spirit, soared in the Lord, been
serious and convicted of sin in weeping, sing in the Spirit in praise of the King.

I know the error of the prosperity gospel and its excesses. But equally a blessing in praising
God. And God is wild. He blesses when people call, and often does not honour theology
but the calling.

So if the music uplifts the King, I will praise the living God too.
If I have learnt anything, God wants us moving with Him in love and power, and not judgementalism.

Most of the blessed groups are flash pans, 5 years, then gone.
So if it speaks and helps me praise, Amen. We are people of liberty, and walking with Him.

So let Him move you and give everything else to Him to sort out, for He will in time.
God bless
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
True I do not hide like the individual I quoted.

I wonder where p.j.l.l.h.f.h.s. saw my picture first.
🙂


I wonder when this individual became aware of my age.
You had posted it just about a week or two ago....just before this new avatar.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
True I do not hide like the individual I quoted.
I wonder where p.j.l.l.h.f.h.s. saw my picture first.
🙂
I wonder when this individual became aware of my age.
Hi NoNameMcgee,

I talk to others who know you, namely grace101.
So your age is no secret.
Why do you have such an axe to grind?
What do you claim is the problem?
And please think about this a little. Look up the Nazarene Church peitist movement.

Now you can have problems with this theology, but to attack me as if I am something
not obvious, plain and open, you are just looking for something that is not there.

And I can take whatever you throw, but there is no point because you just have wet sponges
of blessing in Christ, Amen.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,633
113
Hi Hevosmies,

I love you, I hope if you can bear with a brother without casting me out like refuse.
I have spent my christian life in inter denominational fellowships.
I have friends who are penticostals, charismatics, brethren, catholics, methodists.

I have been in fellowships were people were slain in the Spirit, soared in the Lord, been
serious and convicted of sin in weeping, sing in the Spirit in praise of the King.

I know the error of the prosperity gospel and its excesses. But equally a blessing in praising
God. And God is wild. He blesses when people call, and often does not honour theology
but the calling.

So if the music uplifts the King, I will praise the living God too.
If I have learnt anything, God wants us moving with Him in love and power, and not judgementalism.

Most of the blessed groups are flash pans, 5 years, then gone.
So if it speaks and helps me praise, Amen. We are people of liberty, and walking with Him.

So let Him move you and give everything else to Him to sort out, for He will in time.
God bless
Thanks for replying in a friendly way!