Name It and Claim It

[Angela53510]

"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6
While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 above and its NT citations.
Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)
"ὅπως πληρωθῇτὸῥηθὲν διὰἨσαΐου τοῦπροφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶτὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek
"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV
The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV
This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:
"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."

"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)
The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"
Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. (See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)
Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!
"He himself bore our sins" rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.
So my point!
Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing sees the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.
But what did Isaiah himself intend??
The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.
The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.
As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.
Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.
Jesus has come to save you from your sins. That you can be sure of. God is real. But televangelist, Word Faith prophets, not at all! If you start reading the Bible from cover to cover, over and over yearly or more, you will get a very different theology than these sharks and false prophets paint. I urge everyone to get out a modern translation like ESV, HCSB, NIV or NET and read it over and over again. That was part of what helped me heal emotionally- just reading the Word of God - in context, and fully! I've read the Bible over 50 times straight through, and most of the NT in Greek and much of the OT in Hebrew. (And the entire Bible in French!) I assure you, there is nothing more glorious than feeding on the Word of God. God will minister to you daily as you seek his revealed Word in the Bible, rather than with internet preachers and false prophets.
Here is the verse God gave me that healed my soul in more than one way. It appears in Paul's chapter on justification, and that we all suffer - we live in a fallen world. It has comforted me more times than you can imagine!
"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5

PS. I have a lot more written on this, which I carefully researched and read the Bible to confirm. Ask me, and I will post it!

 

[Angela53510]

Yes, that sounds about right.
Honestly, I don't see what the big fuss is all about.
All this over the words "being" and "person"?
Okay, so I agree with what you said. One being with three persons.
Sounds good to me.
It's still saying the same thing I was trying to convey.

Thank you for confirming at least your theology on the Trinity is ok. You had me worried.

But, don't you think it is ironic, that someone who claims the words of God, are important, cannot even get straight the basic meanings of the words referring to the Trinity? It really does matter!

If you say there are three beings, or ousia, you are saying there are three separate Gods. This is tritheism, as someone pointed out earlier.

If you say God the Father has a body, you are either saying you are a Mormon, or you believe in modalism. That there are three faces to the one body. Historically that is called Sabellianism, God is ONE, but also three persons. If you say he is one with three different faces, you have lost the Trinity, completely.

If you study theology at all, words could not be more important. It's why I prefer the Greek, rather than the English which comes through Latin, and doesn't adequately convey the nature of the three hypostasis. In fact, the Latin word is "persona" which means a mask, or an actor. It was used to refer to the stage. So, hence, my dislike of persons, although I am willing to concede, that there is no better word in English to use, unfortunately.

 

[know1]

Don't bother posting Scriptures for me. Then I would feel obligated to refute every single one of them, using context and hermeneutics, as well as the original languages.
Okay, your loss not mine.
You most likely wouldn't have been able to see it anyway.
You appear to have a very lofty view of your intellect.
You are sharp, I'll give you that much, but you're coming across a little on the arrogant side.
And even though I know many who are more intelligent than I, and how wrong you are concerning what I am capable of understanding, I have found, that I have enough intelligence to understand what is being revealed in scripture to me, instead of having the need for some pastor or teacher of theology to LEAD me into their so called truth, as you do.
I prefer to be led into all truth by the anointing, which, in my opinion, is more important than the greatest teachings of and by man.


Since you do not even understand the bare basics, like the difference between "being" and "person," which I would hazard a guess that most people in this forum understand. (Although, neither is as good as Greek!)

Being, A living thing that has (or can develop) the ability to act or function independently.
That looks like the very thing I was saying about each of them. Each one of the trinity are beings, according to the dictionary's definition.

Since you do not even understand the bare basics, like the difference between "being" and "person," which I would hazard a guess that most people in this forum understand. (Although, neither is as good as Greek!)
There's that lofty arrogance again.
Seriously, you need to tone that down some.
One thing I have found with many Doctors of theology is, you don't have to be born again to understand Greek or Hebrew.
But you do have to be a child of God to be able to see the truth and receive revelations from Him.
So all this puffing out your chest, looking down your nose, high mindedness, means nothing to me.
I would rather be a simple child of God than an intellectual giant.

Your post was pure heresy. Because there are NOT three "beings," not ever!! "Being," or ousia references to the ontology of God. There is only ONE God. However, there are THREE persons, or hypostasis, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and only Jesus has a body! (What garbage you spew out!)
That remains to be seen, seeing you don't care to even hear what I have learned.
Is it because I said God has a flesh body?
You don't even know where I got such nonsense from, do you?
When I heard that, I thought the same thing as you did.
But I heard the same thing, 5 or 6 times, telling me the same thing, with a different scripture each time, after I doubted the source of the voice and said, "that can't be right".
So how is it that you know everything there is to know in the bible and that there is no truth that has yet to be discovered, or any secret yet to be reveal?
I thought scripture had to be SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED. As in, God revealing the secrets and mysteries.


Christian doctrine in every branch and denomination, since the early church is again:

One being with three persons!
One ousia with three hypostasis!

What you have said is the definition of heresy. Totally not biblical, totally uninspired, wrong, nonsense, ahistorical and NOT led by the Holy Spirit.
Again, you just don't know as much as you think. I can back up everything I said, without twisting scripture. Just like I do with WOF.

It also shows me how incredibly limited and wrong your theology is, which follows that your Word Faith is also based on heresy! Meaning, the most basic level of theology is to know who God is! By your statement above, you have proved you have NO knowledge of who God is, something I have repeated stated is the basic error of the entire Word Faith heresy.
Okay, you're entitled to your opinions. Even though you didn't specify what exactly I got wrong.
I still don't know how you can say WOF is a heresy, while telling me how knowledgeable you are in the Greek language.
See, it doesn't matter how smart you think you are, if God doesn't show or reveal the truth to you, you will ever be learning, but never able to come to the truth.
For example, I have yet to be able to get even one person who disagrees with WOF, to be able to see what works of faith are.
You people continue to revert back to works of the law or saying we are trying to work our way into heaven, and you couldn't be further from the truth.
I mean, for claiming to be so smart, how can you people be so dense? It's like talking to a cow or an imbecile.
It is still hard for me to take, even though I know why.
That's one reason why I think very little of your boasting, while you attempt to belittle me or demean what I have learned.

Word Faith dogma posits that we are "little gods" and therefore, like God, we can command things into existence, by believing in ourselves, and that our relationship with God or our faith is perfect. Over and over you, in this post and others, have said that we are "missing out" on commanding God, (how theologically wrong can you get!?) and how we do not have your version of who God is, which limits us in our ability to have our demands (prayers!) answered. And yet, the entire Word Faith understanding of God, of Jesus, is that his goal is to make us gods on this earth, which we are not, never will be, and is based on an out of context reference in the OT, quoted in the NT, that has been twisted and pulled of context!
You started out okay, but started going off the truth or facts.
As for me, yes, I believe I am to be like God, commanding things to come into existence in Jesus' name, but NOT by believing in myself, but in God doing what He said.
I didn't say you were missing out on commanding God, that was your misinterpretation.
Missing out directing the hand of God, through His word.
There's a whole lot more scripture referring to us being like God than the one you mentioned.

Until you do some actual research, reading and learn correct doctrine, you are just continuing to flog lies at worst, or utter ignorance at best!
You mean, agree with you?
I'm the one that has done his researching, studying, while seeking God WITHOUT ANY BIAS.
You cannot say that. You are VERY biased.

As for your personal revelation of this nonsense? I will stick to inspired Scripture; a Scriptural and historical understanding of who God is; plus an understanding of theology; Christian history, as well understanding after studying it extensively, that lies are basis of the heretical doctrines of the Word Faith nightmare.

I hate to break this to you, but I KNOW I'm correct on this, and you are not.
The word thing, is up in the air, but as for the subject of WOF, I have NO doubts that I am right.
My conscience is clear.
Well, thank you anyway for taking the time to write your opinion.
And I really don't know why I'm being so gentle with you, because you certainly don't come across as being a child of God, at least, my understanding of what a child of God should be able to see in scripture.
You do however appear to be sincere, and not a wicked deceiver.
If I saw you in that light, I wouldn't speak so kindly to you, that is for sure.
Okay, so I'm not going to bother expounding scripture to you, so we will just disagree with each other.
I will however continue to speak my mind freely on the subject, as I'm sure you will do also.
It's okay with me if you spout off, but you should at least give me the opportunity to show you WHY I came to a different conclusion than you..

 

[know1]

Thank you for confirming at least your theology on the Trinity is ok. You had me worried.

But, don't you think it is ironic, that someone who claims the words of God, are important, cannot even get straight the basic meanings of the words referring to the Trinity? It really does matter!

If you say there are three beings, or ousia, you are saying there are three separate Gods. This is tritheism, as someone pointed out earlier.

If you say God the Father has a body, you are either saying you are a Mormon, or you believe in modalism. That there are three faces to the one body. Historically that is called Sabellianism, God is ONE, but also three persons. If you say he is one with three different faces, you have lost the Trinity, completely.

If you study theology at all, words could not be more important. It's why I prefer the Greek, rather than the English which comes through Latin, and doesn't adequately convey the nature of the three hypostasis. In fact, the Latin word is "persona" which means a mask, or an actor. It was used to refer to the stage. So, hence, my dislike of persons, although I am willing to concede, that there is no better word in English to use, unfortunately.

I agree with you that words are indeed important, but in this case, I did not have a clear understanding of each of the words.
I knew what I wanted to say, I just lacked the understanding of the meaning of each word.
The body I was referring to is one of the two flesh and bone bodies Jesus has.
Yeah, I know, this is also something you never heard before, that sound like more heresy.
Before Jesus came to earth, He had a flesh body, only on a different plane.
We also have two flesh bodies.
One we can see and the other, not.
The bible calls the other body, the heart, and what God told me was, Jesus is the heart of God.
That's the short of it, and yes, I have many scripture references to back this heresy up.

 

[Angela53510]

I agree with you that words are indeed important, but in this case, I did not have a clear understanding of each of the words.
I knew what I wanted to say, I just lacked the understanding of the meaning of each word.
The body I was referring to is one of the two flesh and bone bodies Jesus has.
Yeah, I know, this is also something you never heard before, that sound like more heresy.
Before Jesus came to earth, He had a flesh body, only on a different plane.
We also have two flesh bodies.
One we can see and the other, not.
The bible calls the other body, the heart, and what God told me was, Jesus is the heart of God.
That's the short of it, and yes, I have many scripture references to back this heresy up.

First, in the post before this, for the second time, you say I am not saved. Based on what? That I have studied to show myself a worker approved? That I have referenced many people, learned the original languages and how to correctly divide the Word of God, I am not saved??

This is the most abysmal accusation you could make. Even I just told you were a heretic for your ignorance of who God is, and the Word Faith heresy, I never said you weren't saved!

Calling someone who has been saved by God for 38 1/2 years, who was gloriously saved by God, through none of her own doing, from the time I knew nothing about God or the Bible, through all the years I have sought God in prayer, in worship, and certainly in my studies, qualifies you as a complete loser.

And where do you get this unbelievably stupid idea that you can know more than anyone who has actually read a lot on Christianity, theology, etc, plus studied and read the Bible daily for 38 1/2 years??

You can't even define basic words, you have led yourself astray with your prfound ignorance. And then, just when I begin to think you maybe you do have a basic understanding of who God is, you come up with Jesus having two bodies?? And we have TWO flesh and blood bodies, one that we can't see?? You really have so much ignorance, gained from running off to a little corner, and listening to demons tell you lies about Christianity 101.

If anyone is arrogant, it is you! With your lying claims that God revealed stuff to you that no one else in the literal history of Christianity has believed. It is the height of arrogance, to claim how much you know, when you come up with this absolute and unmitigated heresy! And heresy by stupidity, at that. Or maybe heresy and arrogance by delusions or grandeur is more accurate.

God talks with me every day! He encourages me, helps me, directs, guides and leads me! But never once did he give me an untrue revelation like your god seems to have!

One body! For Jesus, one for us. Then, a resurrected body, which is NOT 2 bodies. Because a glorified body is NOT the same as a flesh and blood body!

 

[Guojing]

I'm having a hard time grappling with the fact that so few are able to see something so simple.
You are by far, not the only one who can't see what I'm saying. Many of the intellectual teachers have the same problem.
And the reason why you and the others can't see these simple truths is because it is hidden from you.
It is like looking right at something and not being able to see it.

Well most of the Jews are still blind to Jesus being their Messiah, so its not really hard to understand why there would be many Gentiles who would resist the belief that God wants to heal them too.

Its okay, not everyone wants to believe God for divine health on this Earth. They are very comfortable in only believing that Jesus's death has saved them from sin and grant them eternal life.

 

[wolfwint]

Okay, you sound honest enough to tell it like you see it.
As for me, I can't change what I believe, because I still see what is written the same way.
And that's because no one has been able to prove otherwise.
So we will just have to agree that we can't agree on what we see and understand concerning WOF.

The proof is, that WOF doctrine is not function.
And a result of WOF theologie is that believers are conceived and shown for guilty to have not the right/ enough faith.
For me is WOF a dangerous theology, because it claims to be in the will of God, our father. But is not.
Maby you should share your thoughts among WOF believers, but not to catch believers with a false promiss and destroy their faith with something which never was taught to believers in the NT. If this was not taught to them, why it should be taught to the believers today?
You are defending a man made doctrine and sell it as from God.

 

[Absolutely]

That's an easy one, FATHER.
I thank, praise, and worship Jesus, but I pray to my Father.
Jesus is God the Son. He is His own person, even as the Holy Spirit and the Father are their own person.
Now, my definition of Person might be off, but the gist of it is that they are three separate beings cohabiting in one body, and Jesus is the body of God the Father, like our physical body is to us, because Jesus is the heart of God the Father.
And since Jesus is the heart of God, which makes Him part of the makeup of God, then Jesus is God also, like you heart is you, but He is not the Head, the Father is.
It is not one being or person playing different rolls.
They are three distinct beings, each with their own abilities and authority.
I received this revelation and more, from God alone. No man showed or told me any of what I learned about how both God and man are made. It was He who spoke to me about these things, but always with scripture to back up what He told me.
This He did repeatedly.
So, though God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One, they, plural are three being with their own mind and are their own person.

No.
They have their own "bodies"
See rev 5.
Jesus is one person. The Father another,clearly depicted.
Jesus IS NOT the body of the Father.
God did not show you different than the bible.

 

[Absolutely]

"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6
While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 above and its NT citations.
Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)
"ὅπως πληρωθῇτὸῥηθὲν διὰἨσαΐου τοῦπροφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶτὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek
"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV
The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV
This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:
"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."

"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)
The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"
Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. (See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)
Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!
"He himself bore our sins" rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.
So my point!
Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing sees the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.
But what did Isaiah himself intend??
The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.
The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.
As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.
Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.
Jesus has come to save you from your sins. That you can be sure of. God is real. But televangelist, Word Faith prophets, not at all! If you start reading the Bible from cover to cover, over and over yearly or more, you will get a very different theology than these sharks and false prophets paint. I urge everyone to get out a modern translation like ESV, HCSB, NIV or NET and read it over and over again. That was part of what helped me heal emotionally- just reading the Word of God - in context, and fully! I've read the Bible over 50 times straight through, and most of the NT in Greek and much of the OT in Hebrew. (And the entire Bible in French!) I assure you, there is nothing more glorious than feeding on the Word of God. God will minister to you daily as you seek his revealed Word in the Bible, rather than with internet preachers and false prophets.
Here is the verse God gave me that healed my soul in more than one way. It appears in Paul's chapter on justification, and that we all suffer - we live in a fallen world. It has comforted me more times than you can imagine!
"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5

PS. I have a lot more written on this, which I carefully researched and read the Bible to confirm. Ask me, and I will post it!

Wow.
How in the world could you have messed that up?

pssssst.....take a look at moses' brass serpent on the pole. That represented Jesus and was their only healing,PHYSICAL healing,from the bite of the snakes.

All you have done is connect sin to sickness and disease.

Removing the physical healing from the cross,is in DIRECT opposition to the obvious.
Obviously Jesus also filfilled the depictiin of the brass serpent healing ALL. ALL WERE HEALED.
By what?..... The cursed thing on the cross/pole.
Physical healing belongs to us his people.
It,healing,is the childrens bread

The great comission?
What part was Jesus confused about?

 

[wolfwint]

Wow.
How in the world could you have messed that up?

pssssst.....take a look at moses' brass serpent on the pole. That represented Jesus and was their only healing,PHYSICAL healing,from the bite of the snakes.

All you have done is connect sin to sickness and disease.

Removing the physical healing from the cross,is in DIRECT opposition to the obvious.
Obviously Jesus also filfilled the depictiin of the brass serpent healing ALL. ALL WERE HEALED.
By what?..... The cursed thing on the cross/pole.
Physical healing belongs to us his people.
It,healing,is the childrens bread

The great comission?
What part was Jesus confused about?

If it would be True, that physical healing belongs to us.
1. Why we cant find this teaching in the NT?
2. How then christians should die? (Out of murdered through persecution)

 

[Absolutely]

If it would be True, that physical healing belongs to us.
1. Why we cant find this teaching in the NT?
2. How then christians should die? (Out of murdered through persecution)

If salvation is for all,why only a few saved???
Your starting place is to confuse the obvious.
Do that with salvation.
Start to pick it apart,using only things like predestination.
Then the verses that point to " some are appointed to destruction"
Before you know it,you destroyed your own faith in salvation.
For some reason there are those that ignore healing as part of the atonement,and heap up all the opposing verses they can find.
I suppose they hope they will never be healed miraculously.
If sickness is Gods will,why have doctors and medicine fighting against God himself????

 

[Didymous]

1. Can you find any promises guaranteeing they won't or can't have a sick or disease free life?
2. Does that mean no one else is able or allowed to find and teach such to believers?
3. Jesus said, "According to your faith be it done unto you." Is that a non-instruction?
4. Wasn't it wonderful of God to show Paul how to get delivered from the devil's work in his flesh? God did not tell Paul he had to keep the thorn in his flesh, but how to get rid of it. You don't ask God to get rid of the devil for you, you command the devil to leave in Jesus' name, and it will go. We can't do it because we are too weak, but God's power is used in our weakness and inability to fight against an enemy we cannot see or touch.
It is the same thing with salvation as it was for Paul with the demon. God's grace is sufficient for us to get saved as it was for Paul to get delivered from the devil's messanger.
We are too weak, and simply unable to save ourselves, so God, in His grace and mercies, has provided a way for us to receive salvation. The same was available for Paul. God's grace was sufficient to deliver Paul from the devil's pawn, if he took authority over it, through the name of Jesus.
That is a promise of God to His children.
5. If it was a man made doctrine, I wouldn't believe it, but I got these truths straight from the bible.
If your faith was that there is no hell that awaits the unbelievers, then is it a bad thing to destroy a lie?
I understand why most don't listen to the things I write. It's because, in your eyes and many others, I am a evil person teaching heresies, lie, and doctrines of the devil. I don't listen to all of you, for that same reason.
You, on the other hand, are more innocent because of your ignorance of scripture. But because you listen to other vilify me, you have turned me off, so to speak.
6. You just don't understand what is written. If you did, and if you weren't biased against what is written in the bible, the same as that which you say you believe, you would agree with at least some of the things I have written, because everything I have written is straight from scripture.
Again, you put time and era restraints on scripture, and in so doing, strip them of all power to affect your life today, and of all truth.
If they haven't been fulfilled by Jesus' death and resurrection, then they are still in effect today.
Thou shalt not murder, has not been fulfilled in Jesus' death on the cross. So if we murder someone, our act is seen as sin, and the law of sowing and reaping will go into effect. Even against a child of God.
The point is, though the law was written thousands of years ago, we are called to fulfill it in our lives. God doesn't change. What was evil in the days of Moses, is still evil today.
And so it is with the promises concerning WOF. They didn't cease to be true just because they were spoken to the Jews almost 2000 years ago. The laws of faith apply to us today as it did to Abraham thousands of years ago.
But without faith, to all them that don't believe or have refused the knowledge of God's word, yeah, they get sick and die of the same. In God's world, ignorance is not bliss, nor does it save you from the devil or his work. You know, the thing Jesus came to destroy.

Again, why don't you go to the nearest hospital and heal every one? Surely this is possible for you? Or is it that you don't care about the suffering of others?

 

[Absolutely]

If it would be True, that physical healing belongs to us.
1. Why we cant find this teaching in the NT?
2. How then christians should die? (Out of murdered through persecution)

Ok,a good start is bible gateway;

""75 Bible results for “Heal.” Showing results 1-25.""

Take a look at the NT verses on healing.
Just pretend God knew what his mission and will was for healing and salvation.

How many were saved?
How many were healed?
How many did he put sickness on for God's glory?
Would that not be TOTALLY warped and inconsistent to think he actually got some satifaction in putting sickness on people?

 

[Didymous]

If salvation is for all,why only a few saved???
Your starting place is to confuse the obvious.
Do that with salvation.
Start to pick it apart,using only things like predestination.
Then the verses that point to " some are appointed to destruction"
Before you know it,you destroyed your own faith in salvation.
For some reason there are those that ignore healing as part of the atonement,and heap up all the opposing verses they can find.
I suppose they hope they will never be healed miraculously.
If sickness is Gods will,why have doctors and medicine fighting against God himself????

Science has almost always been about destroying God, so that men can be their own gods.

 

[Absolutely]

Again, why don't you go to the nearest hospital and heal every one? Surely this is possible for you? Or is it that you don't care about the suffering of others?

So obviously since all are not saved we should tell all evangelists it is obvious God wants none saved?

 

[Didymous]

In some weird way, I actually enjoyed your post.
If you would give me the opportunity, I would be happy to show you, through scripture, what was given to me.
I ask because it's a lot of scripture to go through before I get to the trinity.
I didn't change anything about the triune God we serve, as you suppose. I only added the body part, which is not taught by anyone.
And even though you have already label me as a heretic, no change from before, which is completely understandable, as far as where you're coming from, and the fact that you won't consider what I'm writing might have the slightest hint of truth to it, I will write it anyway, just to show you what was given to me, and how it was presented, as best I can.

Again, go tobtbe nearest hospital and heal everyone.

 

[Didymous]

So obviously since all are not saved we should tell all evangelists it is obvious God wants none saved?

Why not address the request I made? Deflection is sometimes more telling than a direct response.

 

[Didymous]

Now, it seems clear to me that those espousing the name of and claim it philosophy only want us to blindly believe them, but aren't willing to prove their theory in a practical and humanitarian way. If you're not willing to take the hospital challenge, then not only are you proving the falseness of your belief, but showing a lack of love for fellow humans-if your belief were true.

 

[Absolutely]

Now, it seems clear to me that those espousing the name of and claim it philosophy only want us to blindly believe them, but aren't willing to prove their theory in a practical and humanitarian way. If you're not willing to take the hospital challenge, then not only are you proving the falseness of your belief, but showing a lack of love for fellow humans-if your belief were true.

Now without fail,understand i TOTALLY DEBUNKED your claim.
Again as i challenged you on YOUR DEAL.
NOT MY DEAL,YOUR DEAL. YOUR WISDOM.
Go to the lost and save them all of salvation is truly for the world.
Are you understanding the folly in that?

 

[Didymous]

Now without fail,understand i TOTALLY DEBUNKED your claim.
Again as i challenged you on YOUR DEAL.
NOT MY DEAL,YOUR DEAL. YOUR WISDOM.
Go to the lost and save them all of salvation is truly for the world.
Are you understanding the folly in that?

Why is it that you don't stick to the subject being discussed?