Name It and Claim It

[Angela53510]

of coarse scripture is silent about how he came to own it that’s a no brainer, maybe he built a shed for someone and they give it to him.

why do you think the soldiers wanted the one piece tunic? cause he was Jesus no because it had worth.

you make the statement he had no place to rest his head, that is in the latter stages, once his fame grow, he often went to the wilderness, he did stay with people in their houses Simon peter’s mother law is one example early in morning he got up and left to prey.

you smart I’ll give you that but sometimes I think your wisdom gets the best of you.

Wow! Hard to follow, your spelling is so appalling.

You implied Jesus was rich, because he had this valuable garment. However, I suggested there could be many reasons for this garment, none of which required Jesus to be rich.

As far as implying you were Word Faith, I apologize if you are not! However, others besides you read these posts, and since that is the topic of this thread, I felt adding that was appropriate.

@anyone
Of course, Jesus stayed at various houses, including Peter's. However, Scripture is clear "he had no place to lay his head." (Matt 8:19-20; Luke 9:57-58) What does that imply? Well, he didn't have a home of his own, would be my first guess. Peter obviously did. And many other people who it mentions in the NT. But, it does point to the fact, that Jesus "kingdom is not of this world." I will point out that Matt 8 and Luke 9, are NOT at the end of Jesus ministry, they are actually somewhere closer to the beginning of his ministry.

"Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.” John 18:36.

So, this implies that Jesus was not building a Kingdom of wealth and riches on this earth. Jesus is very clear about this!

Here is an article to read, for anyone who wants to:

https://www.gotquestions.org/nowhere-to-lay-His-head.html

 

[KnowMe]

Wow! Hard to follow, your spelling is so appalling.

You implied Jesus was rich, because he had this valuable garment. However, I suggested there could be many reasons for this garment, none of which required Jesus to be rich.

As far as implying you were Word Faith, I apologize if you are not! However, others besides you read these posts, and since that is the topic of this thread, I felt adding that was appropriate.

@anyone
Of course, Jesus stayed at various houses, including Peter's. However, Scripture is clear "he had no place to lay his head." (Matt 8:19-20; Luke 9:57-58) What does that imply? Well, he didn't have a home of his own, would be my first guess. Peter obviously did. And many other people who it mentions in the NT. But, it does point to the fact, that Jesus "kingdom is not of this world." I will point out that Matt 8 and Luke 9, are NOT at the end of Jesus ministry, they are actually somewhere closer to the beginning of his ministry.

"Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.” John 18:36.

So, this implies that Jesus was not building a Kingdom of wealth and riches on this earth. Jesus is very clear about this!

Here is an article to read, for anyone who wants to:

https://www.gotquestions.org/nowhere-to-lay-His-head.html

I apologize for being harsh in my words in some of my post, but this struck me I don’t think you considered what I was implying, Jesus wasn’t rich monetary in that since, owning a robe that has a value doesn’t make anyone rich,

like a man living in 4 foot by 4 foot metal shed in the woods and inside the shed he owns a painting valued at million dollars, no one can say he is a rich man because of the painting but one can say he has the potential to be rich but if the man never cashes in on that value of the painting, it’s worthless to him he can’t buy a bigger house because he owns a million dollar painting, he remains a poor man with a million dollar painting. just the same Jesus having a robe that has value doesn’t mean he was rich.

 

[Angela53510]

Even if people put NT scriptures out, you will dismiss the healing as "spiritual healing".

The point is that, for many of us, including myself, we have already made up our mind on doctrine, and we thus interpret scriptures according to that belief.

You have me confused. Can you please post where anyone in this thread or any other said that the miraculous physical healings Jesus did in the NT were spiritual? In fact, there are too many solid examples of people being healed of physical ailments by Jesus for anyone to deny.

However, this is where the Word Faith has taken a wrong turn. It doesn't understand who God is, and therefore, the healings that Jesus performed are not necessarily for us to do. I do agree, healing of the body, soul and mind can happen today. But, it is the concept of being "little gods" which is totally misinterpreted, that is the foundation of why Word Faith believes it can COMMAND things into existence, if people would only deny reality, and lie about what is happening. Because claiming to be God, is blasphemy! And certainly heresy. And it shows a shallow and complete lack of understanding of the basis of theology, which is WHO GOD IS! It replaces a man centred doctrine with the truth of a holy, merciful and sovereign God. And it is heresy, in its claims that humans are gods.


So, how many times have you read the entire Bible from cover to cover, that you are firm in your doctrine? How many times have you looked at the so-called definitive verses Word Faith quotes, to see the context? As for interpreting from your belief, as I have repeated over and over in this thread, that is bad hermeneutics or Bible interpretation.

You are imposing your understanding on the text, to fit your preconceived ideas. Instead, we are called to read the Bible, to study it to see what it is saying to us, before we even begin to look at doctrine. Who God is, (Trinitarianism) how we are saved (soteriology) etc etc, come out of the text. We do not lay our interpretation on the text. This is the foundational principle on how to read the Bible. You are committing eisegesis, reading into Scripture what you want it to say. The only way this can be accomplished is to pull verses out of context, to go far beyond the text.

To say nothing of unfounded and untrue generalizations like people say Jesus only healed people spiritually. (Really an attack on people who can show you conclusively that Word Faith is wrong, while the whole movement mocks who God is, and you cover your ears, and are totally unteachable. And not just from me, but what the bible truly says!)

Jesus healed people physically. It was to show how he fulfilled the prophecies in the OT. It was to establish him in the eyes of the Jews the leaders and the people, that he was the promised Messiah. BUT, healing is not guaranteed anywhere in the Bible. It is NOT part of the atonement. Only salvation is part of the atonement. You simply cannot pull a few partial verses out of Isaiah 53, and correspond them to their fulfillment in the NT, and then claim Jesus went to the cross to heal us physically. Jesus' death and resurrection, the atonement, fulfilled the OT rituals and sacrifices as the one who saves us once for all for our sins.

I can bring out my stuff on Isa. and how healing is not in the atonement, if you want to discuss it. As for salvation, that is what the purpose of the atonement is.

 

[Guojing]

Yep, man made doctrine. Thats your choice, but not the truth.

Yeah as Long as you also realise your belief that healing is not part of Jesus finished work is also man made.

 

[Guojing]

You have me confused. Can you please post where anyone in this thread or any other said that the miraculous physical healings Jesus did in the NT were spiritual? In fact, there are too many solid examples of people being healed of physical ailments by Jesus for anyone to deny.

However, this is where the Word Faith has taken a wrong turn. It doesn't understand who God is, and therefore, the healings that Jesus performed are not necessarily for us to do. I do agree, healing of the body, soul and mind can happen today. But, it is the concept of being "little gods" which is totally misinterpreted, that is the foundation of why Word Faith believes it can COMMAND things into existence, if people would only deny reality, and lie about what is happening. Because claiming to be God, is blasphemy! And certainly heresy. And it shows a shallow and complete lack of understanding of the basis of theology, which is WHO GOD IS! It replaces a man centred doctrine with the truth of a holy, merciful and sovereign God. And it is heresy, in its claims that humans are gods.


So, how many times have you read the entire Bible from cover to cover, that you are firm in your doctrine? How many times have you looked at the so-called definitive verses Word Faith quotes, to see the context? As for interpreting from your belief, as I have repeated over and over in this thread, that is bad hermeneutics or Bible interpretation.

You are imposing your understanding on the text, to fit your preconceived ideas. Instead, we are called to read the Bible, to study it to see what it is saying to us, before we even begin to look at doctrine. Who God is, (Trinitarianism) how we are saved (soteriology) etc etc, come out of the text. We do not lay our interpretation on the text. This is the foundational principle on how to read the Bible. You are committing eisegesis, reading into Scripture what you want it to say. The only way this can be accomplished is to pull verses out of context, to go far beyond the text.

To say nothing of unfounded and untrue generalizations like people say Jesus only healed people spiritually. (Really an attack on people who can show you conclusively that Word Faith is wrong, while the whole movement mocks who God is, and you cover your ears, and are totally unteachable. And not just from me, but what the bible truly says!)

Jesus healed people physically. It was to show how he fulfilled the prophecies in the OT. It was to establish him in the eyes of the Jews the leaders and the people, that he was the promised Messiah. BUT, healing is not guaranteed anywhere in the Bible. It is NOT part of the atonement. Only salvation is part of the atonement. You simply cannot pull a few partial verses out of Isaiah 53, and correspond them to their fulfillment in the NT, and then claim Jesus went to the cross to heal us physically. Jesus' death and resurrection, the atonement, fulfilled the OT rituals and sacrifices as the one who saves us once for all for our sins.

I can bring out my stuff on Isa. and how healing is not in the atonement, if you want to discuss it. As for salvation, that is what the purpose of the atonement is.

When you read a verse that says Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever, do you try to make an exception when it comes to healing?

 

[wolfwint]

Yeah as Long as you also realise your belief that healing is not part of Jesus finished work is also man made.

Pardon, this teaching i cant find taught in the whole NT. What is not taught I do not need to proof that it not taught.
Show me an reference that Jesus ore the Apostles ore any other writer taught this.
If you cant it is man made. And you make nothing else then JW who use the word of God as they want to defend their theology.

 

[gee20]

 

[Guojing]

Pardon, this teaching i cant find taught in the whole NT. What is not taught I do not need to proof that it not taught.
Show me an reference that Jesus ore the Apostles ore any other writer taught this.
If you cant it is man made. And you make nothing else then JW who use the word of God as they want to defend their theology.

If you are only comfortable in believing that Jesus only gave you salvation from your sins through the cross, its perfectly understandable, many Christians, including Angela, share your level of belief. That is why she liked your posts.

At the end of day, we will all be in Heaven. The difference is just the way we get there.

 

[know1]

Again, why don't you go to the nearest hospital and heal every one? Surely this is possible for you? Or is it that you don't care about the suffering of others?

I'm still waiting for those scripture verses you promised.
I already told you, I have, as it has worked for me and my family.
What, you don't believe me?
That's because you don't believe what is written.
You remind me of the devil's feeble attempt to temp Jesus in the wilderness.
You have an evil heart of unbelief, as in, no faith, and there is no love of God in you, only hate.
A corrupt tree produces evil or corrupt fruit.

 

[know1]

Now, it seems clear to me that those espousing the name of and claim it philosophy only want us to blindly believe them, but aren't willing to prove their theory in a practical and humanitarian way. If you're not willing to take the hospital challenge, then not only are you proving the falseness of your belief, but showing a lack of love for fellow humans-if your belief were true.

Give me one example that proves you have true faith or the faith the bible speaks of.
Just one.
What work have YOU done that proves you are a child of God with the so called true faith?

 

[Guojing]

He never heard of Romans 10:9?

 

[know1]

Again, go tobtbe nearest hospital and heal everyone.

All you are doing is demonstrating you complete ignorance of how WOF works.
I also told you, in most cases, it does't work that way.
Jesus had John the baptist go before Him to prepare the way.
We have to prepare our own way.
Do you know what that would entail?
Also, Jesus didn't heal everyone that came to Him for healing or deliverance.
So why do you expect us to do something Jesus Himself couldn't do.
Ignorance galore.
You keep spouting off on a subject you know nothing about.
Tell me, how does faith work?

 

[Guojing]

Anyway for the sake of wolf and Angela, here is Strong's definition for the word save or salvation in the Greek, sozo, as used in the NT.

Definition

1. to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
   1. one (from injury or peril)
      1. to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
      2. to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
   2. to save in the technical biblical sense
      1. negatively 1b
   3. to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment 1b
   4. to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance

 

[know1]

So obviously since all are not saved we should tell all evangelists it is obvious God wants none saved?

He doesn't have to have any faith, because he doesn't believe that faith stuff. You know, the thing necessary to get saved. Which, by the way, requires the smallest amount of faith, of all things.
A carnally minded person always always looks to the natural for proof, before they believe.
A hypocrite always demand things of others that he himself cannot do, because he has been blinded to the truth.

Excellent point. Pity your critics do not realized that, when it comes to trusting God for salvation after they declare Jesus as the Lord and believe in his resurrection, they only have the Word of God to rely on.

No one can "feel in their body or emotions" that they are saved. But every church will teach, "Simply trust in the Word of God that says you are saved after praying to receive Jesus as your Lord". So they grew up being established in that truth that, "Since the Word of God says I am saved, then I am saved!"

But when it comes to physical healing, they are so eager to dismiss the Word of God that says they are healed by the stripes of Jesus, and state "But I am not healed! My body tells me that I am not healed! Therefore I cannot be healed!"

Right?
How is it they can only see and believe the promises in the bible they don't have to see manifest physically?

 

[gee20]

He never heard of Romans 10:9?

We know he does. The point is most people have prayed as what we call "the sinner's prayer" but didn't really have a change of heart. Surrendering our lives to Jesus and making Him our Master and Savior is totally different. Knowing Jesus would make us know the TRUTH. To know and experience Him is to read the Bible, not just by listening to men who is fallible.

 

[know1]

So obviously since all are not saved we should tell all evangelists it is obvious God wants none saved?

I don't know why they would want to go to heaven, since His will for them is to be sick on earth, it must be the same in heaven, because Jesus prayed for the Father's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
If His will of for them to be sick on earth, then it is the same for them when they get to heaven.

 

[Guojing]

We know he does. The point is most people have prayed as what we call "the sinner's prayer" but didn't really have a change of heart. Surrendering our lives to Jesus and making Him our Master and Savior is totally different. Knowing Jesus would make us know the TRUTH. To know and experience Him is to read the Bible, not just by listening to men who is fallible.

I have heard many who preach like him, Francis Chan for example.

They often preach exclusively from the 4 Gospels and thus, their message tend to be "We know you have made Jesus your savior but have you made him your LORD?" and they guilt trip Christians into doing more works.

If only these preachers preach more about the Gospel of Grace, which is found in Paul's letters, instead of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is found in the 4 Gospels.

 

[gee20]

I have heard many who preach like him, Francis Chan for example.

They often preach exclusively from the 4 Gospels and thus, their message tend to be "We know you have made Jesus your savior but have you made him your LORD?" and they guilt trip Christians into doing more works.

If only these preachers preach more about the Gospel of Grace, which is found in Paul's letters, instead of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is found in the 4 Gospels.

They are preaching the exact Gospel. Jesus is the Savior of all mankind so He is worthy of all our praises and we should sacrifice a little for His Coming Kingdom. Can we?

 

[wolfwint]

If you are only comfortable in believing that Jesus only gave you salvation from your sins through the cross, its perfectly understandable, many Christians, including Angela, share your level of belief. That is why she liked your posts.

At the end of day, we will all be in Heaven. The difference is just the way we get there.

If
So, i do know only one way. Which ways you mean.

If you are only comfortable in believing that Jesus only gave you salvation from your sins through the cross, its perfectly understandable, many Christians, including Angela, share your level of belief. That is why she liked your posts.

At the end of day, we will all be in Heaven. The difference is just the way we get there.

Well, i see you are not able to show me your doctrine from the scripture.
It is not taught there, so it is not from God.
I thought there is only one way to heaven. Which other ways you mean?

 

[Guojing]

If
So, i do know only one way. Which ways you mean.

Well, i see you are not able to show me your doctrine from the scripture.
It is not taught there, so it is not from God.
I thought there is only one way to heaven. Which other ways you mean?

You can get there like Moses "And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

Or you can get there with diseases and sicknesses you thought you had to bear on Earth, because you think it glorifies God in the eyes of others.