Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
"good twist" "more dishonesty and lack of integrity" - what is the dishonesty and lack of integrity?
One can read Judas's life as recorded and draw ones own conclusions. How can one be dishonest and show a lack of integrity about such an issue?
Or is the "wrong" interpretation now a sin and evil..... sounds like a thought dictatorship to me.
One can read Judas's life as recorded and draw ones own conclusions. How can one be dishonest and show a lack of integrity about such an issue?
Or is the "wrong" interpretation now a sin and evil..... sounds like a thought dictatorship to me.
-
1
- Show all
Why are you so mean to me?
If it makes sense,,,why won't you accept it?
Maybe some of the greek experts here could advise you on the fact that BELIEVE DOES mean to OBEY.
I'm not going to post anymore on this right now...
Look it up for yourself...don't you want to know the truth?
Check out what the bible says on believing and obeying....
IF one believes....one obeys. They're intertwined.
John 3:36 look it up and study it.
Also, unbelief is associated with disobey in the Greek language.
Please study that too, but only if you're interested in THE truth and not YOUR truth.
Why do some go to the greek when it suits them...but no always? Interesting question that deserves a reply. I accept all the Greek.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
disobedience, unbelief.
From apeithes; disbelief (obstinate and rebellious) -- disobedience, unbelief.
see GREEK apeithes
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UNBELIEF
un-be-lef':
The word (the King James Version) represents two Greek words, apeitheia, "disobedience" (only in Romans 11:30,32; Hebrews 4:6,11), and apistia, "distrust," the antithesis to "faith". (which see). The two words are not only akin etymologically but run into one another by mental connection, certainly where spiritual relations are concerned, as between man and God. For when God has spoken, in precept and yet more in promise, distrust involves, at least potentially, an element of disobedience. His supreme claim is to be trusted to command only what is right, and to promise only what is true. He is infinitely sympathetic in His insight, and infallibly knows where distrust comes only of the dim perceptions and weak mis-givings of our mortal nature, and where, on the other hand, a moral resistance lies at the back of the non-confidence. But the presence of that darker element is always to be suspected, at least, and searched for in serious self-examination.
We may remark that it is a loss in our language that "unbelief" is the only word we can use as the antithesis to "faith"; for "faith" and "belief" (which see) are not exactly synonyms. "Unfaith" would be a welcome word for such use, if it were generally so understood.
Handley Dunelm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 6:11,818
KJV Translation Count — Total: 7x
The KJV translates Strong's G543 in the following manner: unbelief (4x), disobedient (3x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
ἀπείθεια apeítheia, ap-i'-thi-ah; from G545; disbelief (obstinate and rebellious):—disobedience, unbelief.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The KJV translates Strong's G570 in the following manner: unbelief (12x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
ἀπιστία apistía, ap-is-tee'-ah; from G571; faithlessness, i.e. (negatively) disbelief (lack of Christian faith), or (positively) unfaithfulness (disobedience):—unbelief.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 570: ἀπιστία
ἀπιστία, -ας, ἡ, (from ἄπιστος), want of faith and trust;
1. unfaithfulness, faithlessness (of persons betraying a trust): Romans 3:3 [cf. references under the word ἀπιστέω, 1].
2. want of faith, unbelief: shown in withholding belief in the divine power, Mark 16:14, or in the power and promises of God, Romans 4:20; Hebrews 3:19; in the divine mission of Jesus, Matthew 13:58; Mark 6:6; by opposition to the gospel, 1 Timothy 1:13; with the added notion of obstinacy, Romans 11:20, 23; Hebrews 3:12. contextually, weakness of faith: Matthew 17:20 (where L T Tr WH ὀλιγοπιστίαν); Mark 9:24. (In Greek writings from Hesiod and Herodotus down.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART 1 OF 2
If it makes sense,,,why won't you accept it?
Maybe some of the greek experts here could advise you on the fact that BELIEVE DOES mean to OBEY.
I'm not going to post anymore on this right now...
Look it up for yourself...don't you want to know the truth?
Check out what the bible says on believing and obeying....
IF one believes....one obeys. They're intertwined.
John 3:36 look it up and study it.
Also, unbelief is associated with disobey in the Greek language.
Please study that too, but only if you're interested in THE truth and not YOUR truth.
Why do some go to the greek when it suits them...but no always? Interesting question that deserves a reply. I accept all the Greek.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
disobedience, unbelief.
From apeithes; disbelief (obstinate and rebellious) -- disobedience, unbelief.
see GREEK apeithes
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UNBELIEF
un-be-lef':
The word (the King James Version) represents two Greek words, apeitheia, "disobedience" (only in Romans 11:30,32; Hebrews 4:6,11), and apistia, "distrust," the antithesis to "faith". (which see). The two words are not only akin etymologically but run into one another by mental connection, certainly where spiritual relations are concerned, as between man and God. For when God has spoken, in precept and yet more in promise, distrust involves, at least potentially, an element of disobedience. His supreme claim is to be trusted to command only what is right, and to promise only what is true. He is infinitely sympathetic in His insight, and infallibly knows where distrust comes only of the dim perceptions and weak mis-givings of our mortal nature, and where, on the other hand, a moral resistance lies at the back of the non-confidence. But the presence of that darker element is always to be suspected, at least, and searched for in serious self-examination.
We may remark that it is a loss in our language that "unbelief" is the only word we can use as the antithesis to "faith"; for "faith" and "belief" (which see) are not exactly synonyms. "Unfaith" would be a welcome word for such use, if it were generally so understood.
Handley Dunelm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 6:11,818
KJV Translation Count — Total: 7x
The KJV translates Strong's G543 in the following manner: unbelief (4x), disobedient (3x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will
ἀπείθεια apeítheia, ap-i'-thi-ah; from G545; disbelief (obstinate and rebellious):—disobedience, unbelief.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The KJV translates Strong's G570 in the following manner: unbelief (12x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- unfaithfulness, faithless
- want of faith, unbelief
- weakness of faith
ἀπιστία apistía, ap-is-tee'-ah; from G571; faithlessness, i.e. (negatively) disbelief (lack of Christian faith), or (positively) unfaithfulness (disobedience):—unbelief.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 570: ἀπιστία
ἀπιστία, -ας, ἡ, (from ἄπιστος), want of faith and trust;
1. unfaithfulness, faithlessness (of persons betraying a trust): Romans 3:3 [cf. references under the word ἀπιστέω, 1].
2. want of faith, unbelief: shown in withholding belief in the divine power, Mark 16:14, or in the power and promises of God, Romans 4:20; Hebrews 3:19; in the divine mission of Jesus, Matthew 13:58; Mark 6:6; by opposition to the gospel, 1 Timothy 1:13; with the added notion of obstinacy, Romans 11:20, 23; Hebrews 3:12. contextually, weakness of faith: Matthew 17:20 (where L T Tr WH ὀλιγοπιστίαν); Mark 9:24. (In Greek writings from Hesiod and Herodotus down.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART 1 OF 2
-
1
- Show all
PART 2 OF 2
A1. Disobedience, Disobedient [Noun] apeitheia lit., "the condition of being unpersuadable" (a, negative, peitho, "to persuade"), denotes "obstinacy, obstinate rejection of the will of God;" hence, "disobedience;" Eph 2:2; Eph 5:6; Col 3:6, and in the RV of Rom 11:30,32 and Heb 4:6,11 (for AV, "unbelief"), speaking of Israel, past and present. See UNBELIEF.
A2. Disobedience, Disobedient [Noun] parakoe primarily, "hearing amiss" (para, "aside," akouo, "to hear"), hence signifies "a refusal to hear;" hence, "an act of disobedience," Rom 5:19; 2 Cor 10:6;Heb 2:2. It is broadly to be distinguished from apeitheia, as an act from a condition, though parakoe itself is the effect, in transgression, of the condition of failing or refusing to hear. Carelessness in attitude is the precursor of actual "disobedience." In the OT "disobedience" is frequently described as "a refusing to hear," e.g., Jer 11:10; Jer 35:17; cp. Acts 7:57. See Trench, Syn. xvi.
B1. Disobedience, Disobedient [Adjective] apeithes akin to apeitheia, signifies "unwilling to be persuaded, spurning belief, disobedient," Luke 1:17; Acts 26:19; Rom 1:30; 2 Tim 3:2; Titus 1:16;Titus 3:3.
Note: In 1 Tim 1:9 anupotaktos, "insubordinate, unsubjected" (a, negative, n, euphonic, hupo, "under," tasso, "to order"), is translated "disobedient" in the AV; the RV has "unruly," as in Titus 1:6,10; in Heb 2:8, "not subject" (RV), "not put under" (AV). See PUT, UNRULY.
C1. Disobedience, Disobedient [Verb] apeitheo akin to apeitheia, and apeithes, "to refuse to be persuaded, to refuse belief, to be disobedient," is translated "disobedient," or by the verb "to be disobedient," in the RV of Acts 14:2 (AV, "unbelieving"), and Acts 19:9 (AV, "believed not"); it is absent from the most authentic mss. in Acts 17:5; in John 3:36 "obeyeth not," RV (AV, "believeth not"); in Rom 2:8 "obey not;" in Rom 10:21, "disobedient;" in Rom 11:30,31, "were disobedient" (AV, "have not believed"); so in Rom 15:31; Heb 3:18; Heb 11:31; in 1 Pet 2:8, "disobedient;" so in 1 Pet 3:20; in 1 Pet 3:1; 1 Pet 4:17, "obey not." In 1 Pet 2:7 the best mss. have apisteo, "to disbelieve." See apeitheounder OBEY, UNBELIEVING.
A1. Disobedience, Disobedient [Noun] apeitheia lit., "the condition of being unpersuadable" (a, negative, peitho, "to persuade"), denotes "obstinacy, obstinate rejection of the will of God;" hence, "disobedience;" Eph 2:2; Eph 5:6; Col 3:6, and in the RV of Rom 11:30,32 and Heb 4:6,11 (for AV, "unbelief"), speaking of Israel, past and present. See UNBELIEF.
A2. Disobedience, Disobedient [Noun] parakoe primarily, "hearing amiss" (para, "aside," akouo, "to hear"), hence signifies "a refusal to hear;" hence, "an act of disobedience," Rom 5:19; 2 Cor 10:6;Heb 2:2. It is broadly to be distinguished from apeitheia, as an act from a condition, though parakoe itself is the effect, in transgression, of the condition of failing or refusing to hear. Carelessness in attitude is the precursor of actual "disobedience." In the OT "disobedience" is frequently described as "a refusing to hear," e.g., Jer 11:10; Jer 35:17; cp. Acts 7:57. See Trench, Syn. xvi.
B1. Disobedience, Disobedient [Adjective] apeithes akin to apeitheia, signifies "unwilling to be persuaded, spurning belief, disobedient," Luke 1:17; Acts 26:19; Rom 1:30; 2 Tim 3:2; Titus 1:16;Titus 3:3.
Note: In 1 Tim 1:9 anupotaktos, "insubordinate, unsubjected" (a, negative, n, euphonic, hupo, "under," tasso, "to order"), is translated "disobedient" in the AV; the RV has "unruly," as in Titus 1:6,10; in Heb 2:8, "not subject" (RV), "not put under" (AV). See PUT, UNRULY.
C1. Disobedience, Disobedient [Verb] apeitheo akin to apeitheia, and apeithes, "to refuse to be persuaded, to refuse belief, to be disobedient," is translated "disobedient," or by the verb "to be disobedient," in the RV of Acts 14:2 (AV, "unbelieving"), and Acts 19:9 (AV, "believed not"); it is absent from the most authentic mss. in Acts 17:5; in John 3:36 "obeyeth not," RV (AV, "believeth not"); in Rom 2:8 "obey not;" in Rom 10:21, "disobedient;" in Rom 11:30,31, "were disobedient" (AV, "have not believed"); so in Rom 15:31; Heb 3:18; Heb 11:31; in 1 Pet 2:8, "disobedient;" so in 1 Pet 3:20; in 1 Pet 3:1; 1 Pet 4:17, "obey not." In 1 Pet 2:7 the best mss. have apisteo, "to disbelieve." See apeitheounder OBEY, UNBELIEVING.
You can forget using the last part to prove he was saved.....and pulpits word wide are filled every Sunday with liars and deceivers that are not SAVED preaching false gospels and skewed messages........wake up and be honest MAN
Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment.
Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment.
I ignore dumb remarks EG, or I'd be here all day.
Can you please post where I said two different things....
People here are very good at ACCUSING....
But VERY BAD at proving it.
If you can't prove what you say...
then be a good Christian and don't say it.
You will not bear false witness against your neighbor.
YOU (and others) do this a lot.
Can you please post where I said two different things....
People here are very good at ACCUSING....
But VERY BAD at proving it.
If you can't prove what you say...
then be a good Christian and don't say it.
You will not bear false witness against your neighbor.
YOU (and others) do this a lot.
STOP SAYING THAT!
You DO NOT believe in eternal security. You believe in CONDITIONAL security! You believe you have to maintain it by your own works and/or believing!
Eternal security is what I believe. I believe that eternal life is everlasting, and i got the greek on my side on this one! Once you place your faith in Jesus Christ(alone), you are justified in the eyes of God. Then God works in you and justifies you, the Holy Spirit brings forth fruit in due time, sometimes more sometimes less....
IF YOU CAN LOSE ETERNAL LIFE, IT WAS NOT ETERNAL! This is a simple point, but i feel its overlooked in this discussion forum! If I tell you this is enough oil to last a lifetime, then it stops next week, I LIED to you!
You DO NOT believe in eternal security. You believe in CONDITIONAL security! You believe you have to maintain it by your own works and/or believing!
Eternal security is what I believe. I believe that eternal life is everlasting, and i got the greek on my side on this one! Once you place your faith in Jesus Christ(alone), you are justified in the eyes of God. Then God works in you and justifies you, the Holy Spirit brings forth fruit in due time, sometimes more sometimes less....
IF YOU CAN LOSE ETERNAL LIFE, IT WAS NOT ETERNAL! This is a simple point, but i feel its overlooked in this discussion forum! If I tell you this is enough oil to last a lifetime, then it stops next week, I LIED to you!
-
3
- Show all
@eternally-gratefull
Well, EG
Are you going to answer the following which I posted about an hour ago?
Or are you just going to discuss your incorrect doctrine with Dcon?
Why don't you put your mouth where your money is and answer the following verses?
You really need to stop accusing persons when you don't even ANSWER their posts but just make accusatory remarks.
Please answer the following,,,like I've done many times.
Well, EG
Are you going to answer the following which I posted about an hour ago?
Or are you just going to discuss your incorrect doctrine with Dcon?
Why don't you put your mouth where your money is and answer the following verses?
You really need to stop accusing persons when you don't even ANSWER their posts but just make accusatory remarks.
Please answer the following,,,like I've done many times.
Suspend disbelief, getting in the shoes of another.
When you see as others see, the world can look very different.
If someone says something is critically important to them, it is not a lie, but it might be a distortion of the whole.
At what point do we start to engage or step back and put into context?
Normally when we cannot cope, or it is obviously sinful, we call it what it is.
I suggest using the lie and slander label here is about not coping and not anything to do with anyone else.
When you see as others see, the world can look very different.
If someone says something is critically important to them, it is not a lie, but it might be a distortion of the whole.
At what point do we start to engage or step back and put into context?
Normally when we cannot cope, or it is obviously sinful, we call it what it is.
I suggest using the lie and slander label here is about not coping and not anything to do with anyone else.
-
1
- Show all
Thats not the doctrine of eternal security! Thats conditional security! Thats one of the tenets of arminianism! The final point! You should know that since you said you were a catholic.
Even if you live WELL you still wont make it to heaven without purgatory! Go follow the Pope on twitter now to reduce your time in purgatory!
Even if you live WELL you still wont make it to heaven without purgatory! Go follow the Pope on twitter now to reduce your time in purgatory!
-
1
- Show all
AGAIN you must be dense or willfully obstinate.......HE was CALLED to fulfill a purpose....HE fulfilled that purpose.....wake UP man.....you ability to be honest is really not looking good on your part.......you are grasping at straws to support your losable salvation......and ALL honest people can see this and you are looking very bad.....
IS A DEVIL
THE SON of PERDITION
WILL NOT BELIEVE
AND HE fulfilled HIS CALL and MISSION..............was NEVER saved and then LOST it......
IS A DEVIL
THE SON of PERDITION
WILL NOT BELIEVE
AND HE fulfilled HIS CALL and MISSION..............was NEVER saved and then LOST it......
The Greek word "to believe" does not mean "obey". To make a simple statement such as in Greek "believe" means to "obey" is not correct. Translating from Greek to English is not as simple as giving a one word correspondence. Every Greek word must be studied in its grammatical meaning, and in the context to determine meaning. (By the way, I have studied and taught Greek for25 years)
Now, having said that I think I may pretty much agree with what you are trying to say about believing. The problem is that the Greek word "pisteuo" (to believe) is used in many different ways and contexts in the New Testament. I think I agree with you that the way the word is used shows that when a person really believes the gospel from the heart that obedience/works will follow. True faith and true obedience should not be seen as two separate packages.
Now, having said that I think I may pretty much agree with what you are trying to say about believing. The problem is that the Greek word "pisteuo" (to believe) is used in many different ways and contexts in the New Testament. I think I agree with you that the way the word is used shows that when a person really believes the gospel from the heart that obedience/works will follow. True faith and true obedience should not be seen as two separate packages.
