Not By Works

[UnderGrace]

So you're a calvinist too??

Not by any stretch of the imagination, not one single doctrine of Tulip do I read in scripture, nata, none, nowhere

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen. When you know Jesus, how could one walk away?
But that does not mean one cannot. And to state this ability is not to deny Jesus.

Negative

To say they can is to deny jesus, it says jesus will or can fail us, there is no other reqson people lose faith in others.

Its sad you think God is so unfaithful anyone could lose faith in him

You are so close to seeing the truth, it can set you free.

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:1

Oh i have seen truth, my faith is not in self but in god, and god has never failed me, nor will he ever fail me so that i would even consider him untrustworthy

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
Col 3:11-12

There appears to be OSAS and non-OSAS expressers of theology, though they trust and believe in Jesus fully.
It is possible, to rip each other apart, and actually deny the very Lord we are serving.

Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
2 Tim 2:14

Once you see evil where there is none, it seems to be everywhere.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The gifts and call of GOD are IRREVOCABLE

Salvation is a GIFT.....Look up the word IRREVOCABLE.........IT states it clearly if one is honest

I wish you'd stop saying this.
Here's some help for you and others that believe this.
You love context.....below is some context for those words you keep repeating and never posting the scripture...

It's Romans 11:29 BTW.
It's speaking about the nation of Isreal. Not individual salvation.
I'm sure you know that Romans 9, 10, and 11 is totally about corporate salvation and not personal salvation...In 11:29 Paul jumps back to corporate salvation for a few verses to finish up his discourse.

You really need to know this difference and stop using those two words you love incorrectly.


vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Meyer's NT Commentary
Romans 11:29. Confirmation of the second half of Romans 11:28 by the axiom: “Unrepented, and so subject to no recall, are the displays of grace and (especially) the calling of God.” The application to be made of this general proposition is: Consequently God, who has once made this people the recipient of the displays of His grace and has called them to the Messianic salvation, will not, as though He had repented of this, again withdraw His grace from Israel, and leave and abandon His calling of Israel without realization.


Expositor's Greek Testament
Romans 11:29. Proof that the Israelites, in virtue of their relation to the fathers, are objects of God’s love. ἀμεταμέλητα cf. 2 Corinthians 7:10 : it may mean either what is not or what cannot be repented of: here the latter. God’s gifts of grace, and His calling, are things upon which there is no going back. The χαρίσματαare not the moral and intellectual qualifications with which Israel was endowed for its mission in the world (Godet), but the privileges of grace enumerated in chap. Romans 9:4 f. Neither is the κλῆσις of God a “calling” in the modern sense of a vocation or career assigned to any one by Him; it is His authoritative invitation to a part in the Messianic kingdom. From Israel these things can never be withdrawn.


Bengel's Gnomen
Romans 11:29. Ἀμεταμέλητα, without repentance) Truly an apostolic axiom. Something absolute is signified; for God will not give way to the unbelief of His own people [so as to suffer it to continue] for ever. Repentance is hid from the eyes of the Lord [i.e. change of His purpose, as to raising Israel from its present spiritual ‘death,’ is impossible with God], Hosea 13:14.—χαρίσματα, gifts) towards the Jews.—κλῆσις, calling) towards the Gentiles.


By the "calling of God," in this case, is meant that sovereign act by which God, in the exercise of His free choice, "called" Abraham to be the father of a peculiar people; while "the gifts of God" here denote the articles of the covenant which God made with Abraham, and which constituted the real distinction between his and all other families of the earth. Both these, says the apostle, are irrevocable; and as the point for which he refers to this at all is the final destiny of the Israelitish nation, it is clear that the perpetuity through all time of the Abrahamic covenant is the thing here affirmed. And lest any should say that though Israel, as a nation, has no destiny at all under the Gospel, but as a people disappeared from the stage when the middle wall of partition was broken down, yet the Abrahamic covenant still endures in the spiritual seed of Abraham, made up of Jews and Gentiles in one undistinguished mass of redeemed men under the Gospel—the apostle, as if to preclude that supposition, expressly states that the very Israel who, as concerning the Gospel, are regarded as "enemies for the Gentiles' sakes," are "beloved for the fathers' sakes"; and it is in proof of this that he adds, "For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance." But in what sense are the now unbelieving and excluded children of Israel "beloved for the fathers' sakes?" Not merely from ancestral recollections, as one looks with fond interest on the child of a dear friend for that friend's sake [Dr. Arnold]—a beautiful thought, and not foreign to Scripture, in this very matter (see 2Ch 20:7; Isa 41:8)—but it is from ancestral connections and obligations, or their lineal descent from and oneness in covenant with the fathers with whom God originally established it. In other words, the natural Israel—not "the remnant of them according to the election of grace," but THE NATION, sprung from Abraham according to the flesh—are still an elect people, and as such, "beloved." The very same love which chose the fathers, and rested on the fathers as a parent stem of the nation, still rests on their descendants at large, and will yet recover them from unbelief, and reinstate them in the family of God.

 

[Chester]

https://christianchat.com/goto/post?id=3855659

This is where our conversation started. So my question just as i expected wasnt misplaced! You didnt use the words "show me a verse where someone had eternal life and lost it"

You said:


So while you didnt say exactly that, the way you phrased that ^ suggests you believe there IS such a verse, since you ask us to give one that say it CANNOT be lost. That, and you say "if osas were true".

I in my opinion gave you such a verse, you just didnt agree with my view nor my interpretation, NOW its your turn to support what YOU believe.

Come on now.

Quite hilarious.

"while you didn't exactly say that" , "the way you phrased that" "suggests you believe"

Think a little bit about the phrases you just used. You are trying to get me to have said something that I didn't say. What you found in the post you point back to is exactly the same thing I have been saying all along.

But I am leaving for today - and will not be back till tomorrow . . . It has been fun having a conversation with you . . .

 

[dcontroversal]

I wish you'd stop saying this.
Here's some help for you and others that believe this.
You love context.....below is some context for those words you keep repeating and never posting the scripture...

It's Romans 11:29 BTW.
It's speaking about the nation of Isreal. Not individual salvation.
I'm sure you know that Romans 9, 10, and 11 is totally about corporate salvation and not personal salvation...In 11:29 Paul jumps back to corporate salvation for a few verses to finish up his discourse.

You really need to know this difference and stop using those two words you love incorrectly.


vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Meyer's NT Commentary
Romans 11:29. Confirmation of the second half of Romans 11:28 by the axiom: “Unrepented, and so subject to no recall, are the displays of grace and (especially) the calling of God.” The application to be made of this general proposition is: Consequently God, who has once made this people the recipient of the displays of His grace and has called them to the Messianic salvation, will not, as though He had repented of this, again withdraw His grace from Israel, and leave and abandon His calling of Israel without realization.


Expositor's Greek Testament
Romans 11:29. Proof that the Israelites, in virtue of their relation to the fathers, are objects of God’s love. ἀμεταμέλητα cf. 2 Corinthians 7:10 : it may mean either what is not or what cannot be repented of: here the latter. God’s gifts of grace, and His calling, are things upon which there is no going back. The χαρίσματαare not the moral and intellectual qualifications with which Israel was endowed for its mission in the world (Godet), but the privileges of grace enumerated in chap. Romans 9:4 f. Neither is the κλῆσις of God a “calling” in the modern sense of a vocation or career assigned to any one by Him; it is His authoritative invitation to a part in the Messianic kingdom. From Israel these things can never be withdrawn.


Bengel's Gnomen
Romans 11:29. Ἀμεταμέλητα, without repentance) Truly an apostolic axiom. Something absolute is signified; for God will not give way to the unbelief of His own people [so as to suffer it to continue] for ever. Repentance is hid from the eyes of the Lord [i.e. change of His purpose, as to raising Israel from its present spiritual ‘death,’ is impossible with God], Hosea 13:14.—χαρίσματα, gifts) towards the Jews.—κλῆσις, calling) towards the Gentiles.


By the "calling of God," in this case, is meant that sovereign act by which God, in the exercise of His free choice, "called" Abraham to be the father of a peculiar people; while "the gifts of God" here denote the articles of the covenant which God made with Abraham, and which constituted the real distinction between his and all other families of the earth. Both these, says the apostle, are irrevocable; and as the point for which he refers to this at all is the final destiny of the Israelitish nation, it is clear that the perpetuity through all time of the Abrahamic covenant is the thing here affirmed. And lest any should say that though Israel, as a nation, has no destiny at all under the Gospel, but as a people disappeared from the stage when the middle wall of partition was broken down, yet the Abrahamic covenant still endures in the spiritual seed of Abraham, made up of Jews and Gentiles in one undistinguished mass of redeemed men under the Gospel—the apostle, as if to preclude that supposition, expressly states that the very Israel who, as concerning the Gospel, are regarded as "enemies for the Gentiles' sakes," are "beloved for the fathers' sakes"; and it is in proof of this that he adds, "For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance." But in what sense are the now unbelieving and excluded children of Israel "beloved for the fathers' sakes?" Not merely from ancestral recollections, as one looks with fond interest on the child of a dear friend for that friend's sake [Dr. Arnold]—a beautiful thought, and not foreign to Scripture, in this very matter (see 2Ch 20:7; Isa 41:8)—but it is from ancestral connections and obligations, or their lineal descent from and oneness in covenant with the fathers with whom God originally established it. In other words, the natural Israel—not "the remnant of them according to the election of grace," but THE NATION, sprung from Abraham according to the flesh—are still an elect people, and as such, "beloved." The very same love which chose the fathers, and rested on the fathers as a parent stem of the nation, still rests on their descendants at large, and will yet recover them from unbelief, and reinstate them in the family of God.

I wish you would get right and actually trust Jesus.....what I said is correct......and like I said....do not address me...I am done with your dishonesty and incessant twist of the word...go bow down to your pope!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
Col 3:11-12

There appears to be OSAS and non-OSAS expressers of theology, though they trust and believe in Jesus fully.
It is possible, to rip each other apart, and actually deny the very Lord we are serving.

Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
2 Tim 2:14

Once you see evil where there is none, it seems to be everywhere.

Saying eternal life can be lost is not exactly a righteous thing, it takes credit and honor away from god and places it on self.

So sorry, but i can not agree here

 

[GodsGrace101]

God does not force people

I can only gather you can not comprehend that because you have never experienced christ

Those who have, would never desire to even think of thinking they do not need saved and walk away from what saves them.

Thats why the bible says those who walk away were never saved.

Where does the bible say that those who walked away were never saved?
I can't remember this verse.

If God does not force people...
Why can't I just walk away?

The question here is not whether or not I want to...
but whether or not it's POSSIBLE.

And, it would really be nice if you stopped making personal remarks about me and my relationship with God.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I wish you would get right and actually trust Jesus.....what I said is correct......and like I said....do not address me...I am done with your dishonesty and incessant twist of the word...go bow down to your pope!

No problem Dcon.
Others will read it
IF THEY HAVE EYES TO SEE AND EARS TO HEAR.

Context is important....
Just like YOU always say.

 

[Hevosmies]

EG
You're not getting eternal life till you die.
You're not dead yet.

You only have eternal life IN JESUS.
If a person stops believing in Jesus ,,, he is no longer IN JESUS and he will not see eternal life at the end.

Question: Why does bible say then: That ye may KNOW ye have (present tense) eternal life? Why does it say that if its only a future?

This is MAJOR. The entire debate hangs on this!

 

[GodsGrace101]

Not by any stretch of the imagination, not one single doctrine of Tulip do I read in scripture, nata, none, nowhere

Sure you do.
You don't believe in free will.
And you believe in Preservation of the Saints.

 

[Hevosmies]

Quite hilarious.

"while you didn't exactly say that" , "the way you phrased that" "suggests you believe"

Think a little bit about the phrases you just used. You are trying to get me to have said something that I didn't say. What you found in the post you point back to is exactly the same thing I have been saying all along.

But I am leaving for today - and will not be back till tomorrow . . . It has been fun having a conversation with you . . .

Conveniently out of dodge for the day huh? You made me answer, but you wont answer.

You suck at conversations dude

 

[Hevosmies]

Sure you do.
You don't believe in free will.
And you believe in Preservation of the Saints.

A lot of people are INCONSISTENT calvinists. They want their cake and wanna eat it too

They love some preservation of the saints, but are not fancying any total depravity or unconditional election!

A lot of people are also inconsistent arminians. They say Im a bible believer, arminians are heretics, yet they affirm all the points except one

 

[GodsGrace101]

Since when does a calvinist believe in free will?

Thanks for proving once again uou never read what people say

YOU said that we cannot become lost.
This means God FORCES US TO STAY SAVED.
This means we have lost our FREE WILL.
If I have free will after salvation it means I COULD LEAVE IF I WANT TO.

What more can I say?
I think it's YOU that does not read or does not understand.

 

[dcontroversal]

Question: Why does bible say then: That ye may KNOW ye have (present tense) eternal life? Why does it say that if its only a future?

This is MAJOR. The entire debate hangs on this!

Because it is a current present possession....it is the spirit that has been born again at the moment of belief and it is eternally sealed in Christ.......and unlike the Catholic deceiver.....the gifts and calling of GOD are irrevocable....SALVATION is a GIFT and the definite article "THE" applies to any and all gifts that GOD would give......

 

[GodsGrace101]

LOL

yes i read a false accusation
what looked like a subtle dig

and your misguided doctrine


youre silly fran


but your false claims hold no weight

Which claims would those be.

Let's discuss this seriously for once.

YOU posted some scripture and I explained that it does not help you and works against you.
I explained WHY.

Please tell me WHY or WHERE you don't agree with me.

John 15:1-6 shows VERY PLAINLY that salvation can be lost.
It shows that branches that do not produce fruit are CUT OFF, DRIED UP, AND BURNED.

Jesus said this,,,,NOT ME.

Please reply and tell me why you don't agree with me.

 

[Hevosmies]

YOU said that we cannot become lost.
This means God FORCES US TO STAY SAVED.
This means we have lost our FREE WILL.
If I have free will after salvation it means I COULD LEAVE IF I WANT TO.

Surprisingly i agree with you

lucky for me: I dont believe in libertarian free will!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where does the bible say that those who walked away were never saved?
I can't remember this verse.

If God does not force people...
Why can't I just walk away?

The question here is not whether or not I want to...
but whether or not it's POSSIBLE.

And, it would really be nice if you stopped making personal remarks about me and my relationship with God.

1 john they were never of us,

I know you want to save yourself. But please stop attacking people who trust god.

 

[UnderGrace]

Sure you do.
You don't believe in free will.
And you believe in Preservation of the Saints.

I believe we have a will, not completely free nor completely determined

We do not "will" ourselves into salvation, "exercising our faith" in Jesus is not an act of our will.
I can explain this more if you would like

The "P" in Tulip (Calvinism) stands for Perserverance.......completely different from Preservation

I do believe God preserves us in that once He states we are justified there is no double jeopardy

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A lot of people are INCONSISTENT calvinists. They want their cake and wanna eat it too

They love some preservation of the saints, but are not fancying any total depravity or unconditional election!

A lot of people are also inconsistent arminians. They say Im a bible believer, arminians are heretics, yet they affirm all the points except one

And most people are niether

They are just bible fed born again christians.