Not By Works
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unclesilas
Active member
#86,517
@unclesilas
I am wondering why you switched up the scripture from the one she quoted.
Very suspect that you would do that, are we dialoging with someone who lacks integrity?
Rosemaryx said:
This is such a comfort knowing that our LORD prayed for us , I feel so touched by this...
John 17:20-23 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away..
That's a great passage, possibly mailmandan will do an exegesis of it as he undoubtledly thrives on the subject:
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them(believers) may be one,Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as(AS) we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me
How can believers be in Father and Son as they are in each other?
How can believers be one as(AS) Father and Son are one?
Active member
#86,517
@unclesilas
I am wondering why you switched up the scripture from the one she quoted.
Very suspect that you would do that, are we dialoging with someone who lacks integrity?
Rosemaryx said:
This is such a comfort knowing that our LORD prayed for us , I feel so touched by this...
John 17:20-23 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away..
That's a great passage, possibly mailmandan will do an exegesis of it as he undoubtledly thrives on the subject:
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them(believers) may be one,Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as(AS) we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me
How can believers be in Father and Son as they are in each other?
How can believers be one as(AS) Father and Son are one?
It was a genuine mistake, a silly mistake, but apart from a couple of wrong verses being inserted, it was the correct text from rosemarys post and comment concerning it. I would be a wee bit less concerned with me being suspect and a bit more concerned with finding answers to the questions
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Word count bazillion, yay for scroll, lol
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? " abraham believed God , and it was credited to him as righteousness ." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: " blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven , and whose sins have been covered . " blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account. Romans 4:2-8 NASB
There are so many verses that I want to share. I keep coming back here because this topic fascinates me. I can see both sides, and that is why I think we can find some harmony in Jeremiah 32:40-41…
I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me. I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.
Jeremiah 32:40-41
He wants us to be intentional, to know He made us and He sure as heck can and will rain down what seems like hell on earth if we don't get in line. Same as a father does with His Children.
But wait, then we read this…
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
1 John 4:18 NASB
And then this…
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 1 Corinthians 7:1
And…
His affection abounds all the more toward you, as he remembers the obedience of you all, how you received him with fear and trembling. I rejoice that in everything I have confidence in you.
2 Corinthians 7:15-16 NASB
Could it be that yes fear, reverential fear, is good? He placed it in our hearts to help us but the kind of fear that harms our walk, the kind that MAKES us love Him, is a conflict of His interest. He wants our love, not so we can get out of trouble or gain reward. He wants our bond-servitude, one that chooses to surrender because we love Him, because believing draws us to our knees, and softens our hearts so that His Love and Glory can fill our lives with Him.
I think we, myself included, get hung up on making sure we are secure. After all, there are many ifs and thens throughout the word. However, we must remember He wants us to lean in and on His promises because we trust that He really, really loves us and yearns for our undivided devotion. Yes, He wants our confidence to be filled with great reverence and sensitivity to His work within, that we may work out that salvation, not so we are paralyzed in fear of losing it. We must hold tight to His promises, so we have the strength to walk in them.
I keep quoting this next one because it reminds me that He is for me, that He has my best interest at heart enough Not to leave it up to me alone.
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
2 Corinthians 9:8 NASB
I believe we need to remember that He loves us. The thieve doesn't; he wants us with Marty Feldman eyes, frozen in fear, so we become unusable.
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
John 10:10 NASB
Let's remember who He is…Good, beyond our full comprehension. Let us also remember that what He wants us to OBEY (is that a work, btw?) is for our own good, not to harm us, but to help us. I would never ever want to take away the importance of them. Therefore, let's finish the race, that He promises He will help us do. He is the author and finisher, because He loves us that MUCH!!! If we could do it on our own, His sacrifice would be in vain. With Him all things are possible.
My heart is fixed on You Lord. You are so beautiful. With You, I am blessed beyond measure.
I apologize to my Lord and Brothers and Sisters if my input brought any confusion. I think we all agree it is so important to find the truth in all the scripture, by reading it in its entirety, not a verse here, and a verse there. I realize that is what brings confusion, why He has given us all thr scripture. I have so so much still to study. Honestly, though, I think we need His help to find HIS unwavering truth. I think the harmony found is in ONLY Him!!
His Peace surpasses ALL understanding.
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? " abraham believed God , and it was credited to him as righteousness ." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: " blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven , and whose sins have been covered . " blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account. Romans 4:2-8 NASB
There are so many verses that I want to share. I keep coming back here because this topic fascinates me. I can see both sides, and that is why I think we can find some harmony in Jeremiah 32:40-41…
I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me. I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.
Jeremiah 32:40-41
He wants us to be intentional, to know He made us and He sure as heck can and will rain down what seems like hell on earth if we don't get in line. Same as a father does with His Children.
But wait, then we read this…
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
1 John 4:18 NASB
And then this…
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 1 Corinthians 7:1
And…
His affection abounds all the more toward you, as he remembers the obedience of you all, how you received him with fear and trembling. I rejoice that in everything I have confidence in you.
2 Corinthians 7:15-16 NASB
Could it be that yes fear, reverential fear, is good? He placed it in our hearts to help us but the kind of fear that harms our walk, the kind that MAKES us love Him, is a conflict of His interest. He wants our love, not so we can get out of trouble or gain reward. He wants our bond-servitude, one that chooses to surrender because we love Him, because believing draws us to our knees, and softens our hearts so that His Love and Glory can fill our lives with Him.
I think we, myself included, get hung up on making sure we are secure. After all, there are many ifs and thens throughout the word. However, we must remember He wants us to lean in and on His promises because we trust that He really, really loves us and yearns for our undivided devotion. Yes, He wants our confidence to be filled with great reverence and sensitivity to His work within, that we may work out that salvation, not so we are paralyzed in fear of losing it. We must hold tight to His promises, so we have the strength to walk in them.
I keep quoting this next one because it reminds me that He is for me, that He has my best interest at heart enough Not to leave it up to me alone.
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
2 Corinthians 9:8 NASB
I believe we need to remember that He loves us. The thieve doesn't; he wants us with Marty Feldman eyes, frozen in fear, so we become unusable.
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
John 10:10 NASB
Let's remember who He is…Good, beyond our full comprehension. Let us also remember that what He wants us to OBEY (is that a work, btw?) is for our own good, not to harm us, but to help us. I would never ever want to take away the importance of them. Therefore, let's finish the race, that He promises He will help us do. He is the author and finisher, because He loves us that MUCH!!! If we could do it on our own, His sacrifice would be in vain. With Him all things are possible.
My heart is fixed on You Lord. You are so beautiful. With You, I am blessed beyond measure.
I apologize to my Lord and Brothers and Sisters if my input brought any confusion. I think we all agree it is so important to find the truth in all the scripture, by reading it in its entirety, not a verse here, and a verse there. I realize that is what brings confusion, why He has given us all thr scripture. I have so so much still to study. Honestly, though, I think we need His help to find HIS unwavering truth. I think the harmony found is in ONLY Him!!
His Peace surpasses ALL understanding.
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E
The biggest thing i desire is people see the fallacy in some of the arguments they use, thats what frustrates me the most, that and when they say things about others which is not true,
It seems most people start off discussing, but some, when they figure the person will not come to their point, start attacking and using strawman arguments which lend nothing to the conversation excet to try to pudff themselves up or give them an excuse?
Like the scripture argument.
Any argument which can be used by both parties are meaningless. And when i see it being used, i hurt for the people using them, and why they cant see it.
It seems most people start off discussing, but some, when they figure the person will not come to their point, start attacking and using strawman arguments which lend nothing to the conversation excet to try to pudff themselves up or give them an excuse?
Like the scripture argument.
Any argument which can be used by both parties are meaningless. And when i see it being used, i hurt for the people using them, and why they cant see it.
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concerning this line of reasoning...
Only saved people go around worrying they are not saved.
I strongly Disagree, if a person who has been born again and given the rest god offers is worried about being saved. Then who is that persons trust in? Is god untrustworthy that we have to worry he will not fulfill his promise?
We worry in flawed people or flawed truths, not in god,
In my view, only people who think they are saved worry, because they are teusting in a flawed gospel. Not God himself.
Satan wants us to worry about our security, because it takes our minds off loving others and puts it on self,
Only saved people go around worrying they are not saved.
I strongly Disagree, if a person who has been born again and given the rest god offers is worried about being saved. Then who is that persons trust in? Is god untrustworthy that we have to worry he will not fulfill his promise?
We worry in flawed people or flawed truths, not in god,
In my view, only people who think they are saved worry, because they are teusting in a flawed gospel. Not God himself.
Satan wants us to worry about our security, because it takes our minds off loving others and puts it on self,
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Do you know what the act of circumcision was to accomplish?(Genesis 17:10)
When asked what to do to be saved what was the response of Peter?(Acts 2:38,39)
How was Paul saved?(Acts 9:17,18)
How was Cornelius saved?(Acts 10:34-48)
I am not sure I understand what you are saying but If you have read all my posts you will not see me "grab one verse of scripture and bring it into contradiction with multiple scriptures that oppose your understanding of the one verse". I have in the posts and studies produced reconciled all the scriptures which may seem contradictory
You contend that the faith was not real because it produces no suitable works.I contend that as James writes the real faith is dead since it produces no works and hence it cannot save. Again I ask;do you understand what is meant by,"not under law"?
When asked what to do to be saved what was the response of Peter?(Acts 2:38,39)
How was Paul saved?(Acts 9:17,18)
How was Cornelius saved?(Acts 10:34-48)
I am not sure I understand what you are saying but If you have read all my posts you will not see me "grab one verse of scripture and bring it into contradiction with multiple scriptures that oppose your understanding of the one verse". I have in the posts and studies produced reconciled all the scriptures which may seem contradictory
You contend that the faith was not real because it produces no suitable works.I contend that as James writes the real faith is dead since it produces no works and hence it cannot save. Again I ask;do you understand what is meant by,"not under law"?
WE HAVE GREEK EXPERT ON THIS SITE. But you consider them BIAS. So only a Greek expert who agrees with YOU, even though the will be extremely few, to be the GREEK EXPERT that YOU would consider NON-BIAS. While the rest of us consider that GREEK Scholar to be as BIAS as the Day is Long.
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I have a problem with the above idea. "deceitful error"
This implies the intention of someone is to know one thing and then suggest something different.
If on the other hand the person points out the various different meanings of a word, that is truthful and not deceitful.
Are we seeking to know the truth or hold to our bias?
A sign of our intention to find truth is open discussion about different interpretations of the words.
A simple for instance of such an issue is Jesus declaring those who believe in Him will not die.
Obviously if all believers have died without exception, Jesus meant something other than physical death.
A problem arises when one interpretation becomes a crucial part to a whole theology, so to interpret it as something
different is "evil" and wrong, and those people who do so must have the wrong intentions.
It is not unreasonable that a loving believer who follows Jesus believes honestly a different view to oneself.
If this is impossible, then unfortunately, one has just become part of a locked in world view that rejects truth
or other perspectives to maintain its credibility. The Lord has never been a part of such positions, by His own
definition "I am the way, the truth and the life"
You know the tree by its fruit.
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
This implies the intention of someone is to know one thing and then suggest something different.
If on the other hand the person points out the various different meanings of a word, that is truthful and not deceitful.
Are we seeking to know the truth or hold to our bias?
A sign of our intention to find truth is open discussion about different interpretations of the words.
A simple for instance of such an issue is Jesus declaring those who believe in Him will not die.
Obviously if all believers have died without exception, Jesus meant something other than physical death.
A problem arises when one interpretation becomes a crucial part to a whole theology, so to interpret it as something
different is "evil" and wrong, and those people who do so must have the wrong intentions.
It is not unreasonable that a loving believer who follows Jesus believes honestly a different view to oneself.
If this is impossible, then unfortunately, one has just become part of a locked in world view that rejects truth
or other perspectives to maintain its credibility. The Lord has never been a part of such positions, by His own
definition "I am the way, the truth and the life"
You know the tree by its fruit.
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
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