Not By Works

[Macabeus]

Where does it say they left their faith?
They obviously had faith as you say.
But nothing to say they lost their faith.

What they did do was

Acts 5:3-10
3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, why have you let Satan fill your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. 4 The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was also yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren’t lying to us but to God!”
5 As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. 6 Then some young men got up, wrapped him in a sheet, and took him out and buried him.
7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, “Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?”
“Yes,” she replied, “that was the price.”
9 And Peter said, “How could the two of you even think of conspiring to test the Spirit of the Lord like this? The young men who buried your husband are just outside the door, and they will carry you out, too.”
10 Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

They lied.
They did not have to, they could have kept what they gained.

Interesting to not v7. About 3 hours later.
Jesus was on the cross for 3 hours, taking all the sins of the world upon him.

Maybe it was a warning to the early church.
Sin is abhorrent to God that results in death, even for a believer.

But as I said, nothing in your quote would suggest they lost their faith.

You ever lied, sinned?
If so does that mean you lost your faith?

Where does it say they had genuine saving faith? What chapter and verse?

 

[unclesilas]

INIQUITY,CHARITY AND FAITH(PART 2)


​

The works are works of love and this corresponds to Paul’s statement about the same and puts into context the relationship between faith and works.The persons who, “worketh iniquity” ,lack love and are rejected by the Lord. Those who lack charity also are nothing according to Paul and hence the working of iniquity,the lack of charity and the absence of the appropriate works,according to Jesus,Paul and James will see these persons failing to enter the Kingdom of God.


Hence Paul says:

“And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”(I Corinthians 13:13)

Jesus puts it this way:


“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”(John 8:31,32)

James is in perfect agreement when he says:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”(James 2:24)

Is this understanding in contradiction to statements like:

“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."[Romans 3:28;Galatians 2:16]

Or

“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”(Romans 4:2)

When the complete context is considered there is no contradiction. As was said in another study:

“We cannot free ourselves from the curse of the law.Only the death of one who was just could do this great work of reconciliation with God.[Deuteronomy 11:26-29;27: 11-26;28: 15-19;Galatians 3:13; Hebrews 9:15;10:1-10; I Peter 1:18-21;2:24, 25;Romans 3:22,23.]
For neither the blood of bulls and goats(works of the law) nor our good works(works of righteousness) could redeem us from the consequences of sin.[Romans 3:20;Romans 6:23;Ezekiel 20:24,25;Romans 9:31,32; Titus 3:5;Hebrews 10:1-14;Galatians 2:16;3:19,24- 26]”

The persons who benefit from this blessing will be in a position like that of the thief on the cross.

The attitude of one of the thieves was one of unbelief. He said:

“And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.”(Luke 23:39)

The other showed reverence and believed in Christ while confessing he had done wrong.He asked for mercy:

“But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.”(Luke 23:40-42)

Jesus granted him his wish and he was saved as he died and did not have the occasion to fall into sin again:

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”(Luke 23:43)

Hence he was:
“…justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Not all are in this position for all of their remaining lives and in fact most may be in one similar to the woman caught in adultery.

The woman was found guilty of breaking the command:

"Thou shalt not commit adultery."[Exodus 20:14]
According to the law she was to have been stoned to death.[Leviticus 20:10;John 8:5]

Grace was exercised and Jesus said:

"...Neither do I condemn thee.."[John 8:11]

However at the end of it all, she was told :


"...go and sin no more. " [John 8:11,See Romans 6:1,2]


Hence,even though grace alone freed her from the penalty of sin she was not expected to continue in iniquity as she continued to live. She was to show love/charity by no longer committing adultery.

It is the same now, as we access this grace by faith,we are to practice the "good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."[Ephesians 2:8-10]

If not we are said to be among those who:

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."[ Titus 1:16]

Are such persons still saved?

We should rather be found among these:

"Little children,let no man deceive you:he that doeth righteousness,is righteous even as he is righteous."[ I John 3:7]

safswan

Simply to address the point a Christian once saved is justified by works of the law. If that were true, then we must ask the question: ‘’Why did Jesus die at Calvary’?’’ For under the old covenant they did no works to enter the covenant, and once in it were in a justified state as long as they obeyed the law. When they failed to obey it, so long as it was not sin that resulted in being stoned to death they could be forgiven their sin by an animal sacrifice, thereby returning to a justified state. Under the new covenant you would do nothing to enter it apart from repent and accept Christ as your saviour, then repent in order to remain or return into a justified state when you failed to do works of the law/committed sin. Did Jesus really die at calvary to change nothing, apart from animal sacrifices no longer needed to be made?

A persons faith is seen to be faith that justifies by what follows. If you do not accept that is what James is saying, you would have to disregards multiple verses of Paul’s. And it is extremely unwise to grab one verse of scripture and bring it into contradiction with multiple scriptures that oppose your understanding of the one verse

A person accepts Christ as their saviour. They are a drunk, beat their wife, have multiple affairs and they are a habitual thief. God will accept them their and then, in such a state on the basis of a justification of faith in Christ. For even when we are dead in transgression/sin we are made alive with Christ when we turn to him(Eph2:5) However, if three months later say the man still beats his wife, gets drunk every night, has multiple affairs and is still a habitual thief, they were never truly born again in the first place. They never had faith that justifies, because faith without works is dead. And I do not know any Christian who would consider such a person as described in a saved state if nothing had changed in their lives once they say they get saved.

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness/justification for everyone who believeth Romans10:4

If being in a justified state hinges on works of the law, then the believer must live their Christian life under the law, if that is true, you must dismiss half the books of the new testement, for Paul repeatedly states the Christian is not under the law

 

[BillG]

Where does it say they had genuine saving faith? What chapter and verse?

If they didn't then they could not lose it then.
So it's irrelevant if they did not.

 

[lightbearer]

Not happening.........Depart from me ye workers of iniquity <-----those who blend works plus faith to gain or keep salvation......

You don't actually believe that is what Christ meant in Matt 7 do you?
Please take the time and show me how you came to that conclusion.

What can I logically DEDUCE by MATTHEW 7

Only that in which Jesus said.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. THEREFORE whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, AND DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
(Mat 7:15-24 KJV)

In summary....
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Depart from me, ye that work iniquity. THEREFORE (for that reason; consequently ) whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, AND DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

In other words Not doing the sayings of Jesus, the will of the FATHER is bad fruit; iniquity.

 

[gb9]

And saying that faith is a mental activity, and that as long as one believes, even if only for a moment, and saying that a person can be a believer for years without bearing any fruit, and getting upset when someone says faith perserveres because of God's work is easy believism. All of these things were said by either Bubman or Do. Or one other person. I can look up the threads and post numbers if you want

show one post where someone says " .. can be a believer for many year without bearing any fruit ".

show a post one someone types out these words.

 

[lightbearer]

And notice what was the proof that Israel as a whole did not believe/have faith:

"But as to Israel he saith, All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."(Romans 10:21)

Why?
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

What is this Faith in which Paul preaches?


Real Faith comes from GOD through Christ as Romans 10 reveals.



But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; For Christ (the word (commandments) in the heart and mouth) is the end of the law (the word (commandments) on tables of Stone and parchment) for righteousness to every one that believeth. .
(Rom 10:4-8 KJV)

 

[unclesilas]

In other words Not doing the sayings of Jesus, the will of the FATHER is bad fruit; iniquity.

So ultimately we are all grateful we are saved and kept by a righteousness of faith in Christ, unless, we all claim not to invite friends or family home for a meal, but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars so we may receive our reward in heaven. We never so much as hint to anyone if we fast. If someone stole something of ours, we would offer them more besides what they stole with nothing but love in our hearts for them. If anyone wanted to borrow from us we would gladly lend to them without ever expecting anything back, etc

 

[Goodnewsman]

He talks about prodigal sons who never come home, and says their still sons. I thought prodigal son represented sinners that come to Jesus, like the Publicans and sinners Jesus was talking about, not backsliders.

prodigal sons represent those who were "saved" but made the choice to walk away from the father. have you ever wondered why the father never went to the far country to bring his son back home? because sin is a choice and serving God is a choice we must all make. God will not force any of us to Love him.
Luke 15:24 (KJV)
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luke 15:32 (KJV)
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Is a dead son and a lost son any better off than no son at all?

 

[dcontroversal]

I don't understand the reasoning why works would be a gift. For one thing the works are for another's benefit aren't they? Not for us. If you think of the gifts of Holy Spirit like healing and deliverance etc. then that too would be for others. If it's a gift at all it's not for the worker. It's the fruit of our faith in the work of God.

I would call it ministering.

Makes no sense.

Like I said.....faith and salvation are FREE gifts we do nothing to earn

We earn WAGES for works.......something WE DO as a direct result of the above GIFTS..........!!

 

[dcontroversal]

prodigal sons represent those who were "saved" but made the choice to walk away from the father. have you ever wondered why the father never went to the far country to bring his son back home? because sin is a choice and serving God is a choice we must all make. God will not force any of us to Love him.
Luke 15:24 (KJV)
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luke 15:32 (KJV)
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Is a dead son and a lost son any better off than no son at all?

Wrong....A. Hebrews states that is salvation can be lost it is IMPOSSIBLE to be re-saved....at no point was the Prodigal NOT a son...he was only perceived as DEAD by his actions though very much alive...........

The text in HEBREWS only leave two possible conclusions...

A above or

B. The Prodigal was never saved and GOT saved in the story....

 

[dcontroversal]

? I didn't say they were. I said results of our works are for others. So why call them gifts?

Because he went to seed on an idea not supported by scripture................probably something he heard preached and then ran with it.....

 

[dcontroversal]

lets just think about this for a minute:
Ananias and sapphira allow satan to fill their hearts and lie to God (Acts 5:4) and they fell dead!

notice what Revelation 21 says about "all liars"

Revelation 21:8 (KJV)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

according to you God would have to tell a lie and say to Ananias and Sapphira "welcome in thou good and faithful servant" (matt 25:23) BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT GOD WONT LIE

dont be deceived like Adam and Eve was in the garden when satan said "you wont die" go ahead and disobey God

Ananias and his wife went to HELL the day they died and they are still there today:

Ezekiel 18:24 (KJV)
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

how foolish to believe a man isnt fit to live on earth but fit to live in heaven

let me ask you a simple question: "does the devil ever accuse you, or does the devil fight with you over anything such as a weakness etc...???????

The bible says ALL men are liars.....guess your lost as well based upon your generalized application of "ALL LIARS"......

 

[dcontroversal]

Well my original argument was that the works that God gave us to do are part of the endowment God gave us when He saved us. But some people are so terrified of works salvation, that they separate the positional aspects of salvation, (God does this, they say) and the practical fruit of salvation (we do that,they say), but I say it is all of grace

I'm bowing out too. If they want to think that works are added to grace BY US instead of flowing out of grace from God's throne, , it is obvious I won't change anyone's mind, even though Ephesians 4:8 says Christ gives gifts unto men, and it isn't talking about any of the gifts that DC listed as the only gifts in the Bible

And yes, gifts are meant to be used. So a gift of a ministry is a gift of a work to do for the Master's glory

Now your roots are showing....lookie here folks...another deceptive person changing what was said and how he applies his word.....

No...your original argument was that WORKS are a GIFT just as GRACE/FAITH/SALVATION

and your second bolded is false as well.....

We have all said that the works are the RESULT/BYPRODUCT of the free gifts of faith/grace and salvation

Just another Mr. Twisty here guys............just like when he accused me of NOT knowing that faith is a GIFT.....so I pulled two quotes from 2014, 2015 where I said that FAITH was a GIFT from GOD......

If you cannot be honest that makes you a what exactly??????????

 

[dcontroversal]

Ezekiel 13:22 (KJV)
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

You can take Ezekiel out of context all the day long to stand against my truthful post and it only does three things....

a. Makes you a deceiver taking the word out of Context
b. Does not change the validity of my statement
c. Proves you are not led of GOD

Congrats on coming clean with who you really are.....HERE..for your benefit......

dcontroversal said:
AMEN brother....and how many times do we see people totally disregard the fact that God chastens and even takes a man's physical life as part of being chastened.........too many people conflate being chastened with losing salvation.....it leads to many false and or erroneous beliefs.........

 

[dcontroversal]

He talks about prodigal sons who never come home, and says their still sons. I thought prodigal son represented sinners that come to Jesus, like the Publicans and sinners Jesus was talking about, not backsliders.

The more you lie........tells all who really leads you..........QUOTE ME where I said PRODIGAL SONS NEVER COME HOME or BE FOUND A LIAR......

 

[mailmandan]

My response to you(post #84118)addresses most if not all of your comments here.Read that post carefully and answer the questions and truth will become evident.Also you should only compare passages of scripture when you properly understand them.As I said in the post referenced,context determines how we understand the contents.

The truth is already evident to me apart from your questions. I have considered the context and I also properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

Good day mailmandan,

You wrote:

“It's not a theory. James 2:14 plainly reads - "says" he has faith (NKJV, ESV, NASB). Other translations say "claims" (AMP, CSB, NIV)."

The way to understand the passage is not to run from translation to translation. Use elements in the passage to figure out what is the proper understanding of the same. The use of Abraham as the example proves this is not a “mere” claim of having faith. It refers to real faith. You find this hard to accept as it would negatively affect your theory. Also one would of necessity have to “say” they have faith unless you know of some other way this can be initially expressed.

Unlike you, I don't ignore what the translations plainly say and teach. The use of Abraham as an example of someone who has real faith, as we see in (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) is in CONTRAST to those who merely "say-claim" they have faith, but instead, have an empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14)

Post #82434 by UnderGrace explains it well.

I respectfully disagree.

The assumption about dead faith is based on your initial assumption about claim to have faith. It is also based on a severe misunderstanding of the passage in question.

"Faith without works is dead." (James 2:20) It's not an assumption. It's a fact. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not real faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

Look at what the passage says:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? KJV

What is the profit, my brethren, if faith, any one may speak of having, and works he may not have? is that faith able to save him? YLT

What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? RV

What good does it do, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but does not have any works? This kind of faith cannot save him, can it? ISV

My friends, what good is it for one of you to say that you have faith if your actions do not prove it? Can that faith save you? GNB

What auaileth it, my brethren, though a man saith he hath faith, when he hath no workes? can that faith saue him? GENEVA

What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? ASV

I have looked at what the passage says numerous times. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

There is more than one way of looking at this passage and none of them do your cause any good.

The truth, which I already explained to you in multiple posts does not do your cause any good. So what is your agenda here? What's your angle?

As was said before there is no other way to initially express your belief in something other than to say it. James is simply saying such a belief is only beneficial in the matter of salvation when it is accompanied by works which are commensurate with that faith. So the,that faith,that cannot save is not a false faith, nor a mere claim of faith but a faith that is devoid of the appropriate works. Again it is the example used by James which informs me that he is not referring to false faith or a fake claim to faith.As Abraham’s faith was real so is the faith that is alone,which cannot save.

Just as I suspected. You teach salvation by faith + works. You interpret James to be saying that this hypothetical person in James 2:14 actually has real faith (in spite of the fact that we read "says-claims" to have faith) then go on to conclude that this real faith cannot save until it produces works and man is saved by faith AND works, which is absolutely false.

You call it, “Empty profession of faith/dead faith.” Do you realize what it is that makes the faith a mere profession or dead faith? Not that the person did not really believe but because this belief is not accompanied by the appropriate works,then it is a mere profession and dead as it serves no purpose. As is written:

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."(Titus 1:16)

Faith without works is dead. Dead is the opposite of alive. Those who truly believe go on to demonstrate it by works. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. Someone who merely claims or professes to have faith, yet produces no works at all does not truly have faith, but has an empty profession of faith/dead faith. Just as we read in Titus 1:16 of those who merely "profess" to know God, but in works deny Him. No good works are produced from that empty profession which demonstrates that such a profession is without possession.

You also wrote:

“"Says-claims" to have faith is not the same thing as saying actually does have authentic faith like Abraham. So you disregard "says-claims" to have faith in James 2:14 and instead, modify it to mean "actually does have faith" but produces no works? It sounds to me like you teach salvation by works.”

You sound really confused. Says-claims to have faith, but has no works, is not the same thing as actually does have faith, like Abraham who was shown to be righteous by his works. I teach that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). I'm not the one who is teaching we are saved by faith + works.

For whom is this evidence to be produced? Who are we justified before? What if there is no evidence? Is the person who believes/has genuine faith still saved?

The evidence is produced for all to see, including God, yet God already knows the condition of our hearts before we produce any works upon initially placing our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. We are justified/accounted as righteous before God (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1) and shown to be righteous before God and man (James 2:21-24). Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit (evidence) at all demonstrates there is no root (faith). To say that someone truly believes/has genuine faith, but produce no works at all is an OXYMORON.

 

[mailmandan]

You have obviously twisted this to conform to your theories.

I twisted nothing and I *properly harmonized scripture with scripture* before reaching my conclusion on doctrine, instead of forcing the text to conform to a biased theory, as you did.

The real reason belief is not beneficial as was stated by James and in this case,is not because it “"falls short of authentic belief resulting in salvation,"” but because they failed to act/do in the manner commensurate with such belief/faith.

The fact that belief fails to act/do in the manner commensurate with such a belief/faith is because it falls short of authentic belief resulting in salvation. You have it backwards. Cart before the horse.

The passages both clearly says the people believed, they had faith. I accept this but you want to theorize this away as if you could see the minds/hearts of these persons. The only proof that the faith they had was not in vain(not that it was not real or enough as you claim) is what they do afterwards.

James 2:19 also says the demons believe (same Greek word "pisteuo") yet we know they are not saved, unless you would like to argue they are saved because they "believe." It's the same for these Jews in John John 8:31-59, who were said to have "believed" yet they turned out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. You call that saving belief?

Their works. James says it clearly:

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:20)

Yes, James does say it clearly and "faith without works is dead" does not does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That's like say that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. Like flows through the root of a living tree and produces fruit. So does a dead tree produce fruit in order to become a living tree or does a tree produce fruit BECAUSE it's a living tree? This is common sense.

Dead is not the same as not real and the discussion would have been pointless if James was discussing false faith vs. real faith. There would be no need to have the discussion. Dead refers to something of no value and of no use. Jesus never doubted that they believed but He knew they would not act upon this belief.

Dead is dead, which is the opposite of alive, as we see in (Ephesians 2:5-8). You really believe that Jesus never doubted that those Jews in John chapter 8 truly believed, even after saying they were slaves to sin, children of the devil and liars? If you can believe that then you can believe anything!

You seem to believe that "all" belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and you cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith which trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation, which explains why you have so much faith in works.

The parable of the sower confirms this situation,as all but the person who failed to understand the word,did come to believe. However only one went on to produce the appropriate fruit/works and so be fit for the kingdom of God.(Matthew 13:18-23)

Only one (the 4th soil) produced fruit and demonstrated genuine consummated belief resulting in salvation. Shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces not fruit and withers away does not represent saving belief.

And the big question is; what happens if there are no works meet for repentance?

Then there was no genuine repentance. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine repentance/faith, but not the essence of repentance/faith and not the means of our salvation.

Will you say ;those who have true faith and are really saved will have these works?

True faith does not remain barren of works, so all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.

But if the works have no bearing on salvation, then why are they there,with those who are truly saved?

Again, works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith.

So the question remains; what if there are no works meet for repentance?Is that person still saved?

No, "truly repented, but produces no works at all" is an OXYMORON. If repentance is genuine, it will results in works.

If works have no bearing on salvation then why not continue to sin so grace may abound?

Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9-10)

And if genuine believers continue in His word then are there non-genuine believers who do not?

There are plenty of non-genuine believers (nominal Christians) who do not continue in His word. Judas Iscariot is a good example.

Was it that their belief was not strong enough for them to continue in His word or is it that their belief was negated and became dead because they did not continue in His word?

Continuing in His word is evidence of saving belief and not the cause. Belief that does not continue was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Shallow, temporary belief that does not continue was dead all along.

Without realizing it,a previous statement by you seems to confirm the true state of affairs.You wrote:

“Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.”

But scripture confirms the evil angels’ belief in God and what He is able to do. They should know even more than us as well.

“..the devils also believe, and tremble.”(James 2:19)

Again, in James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. Big difference!

So what makes the difference? They believe in the devil according to you but they also have a belief in God. What is the difference?

They believe "mental assent" in God, but they do not believe in or on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved (Acts 16:31) Do you understand the big difference?

You say it, but apparently want it to apply only to the evil angels. Can one who does, “continuous evil works”,or who does not continue in His word, be a saved, genuine believer?

"Continuing in evil works/does not continue in His word" is not descriptive of those who are born of God.

 

[dcontroversal]

not sure who DCON is...... but i believe if a man who is saved turns from his faith and dies he goes to the same hell the unrepented homosexual or drunk goes to

If you believe that then you believe is a weak, inept lying JESUS.....

How does what you say jive with the JESUS that the bible states.....

BEGINS, FINISHES and COMPLETES the work of faith he BEGINS IN US

YOU say that HE DOES NOT finish it or complete it.....so....who is lying....YOU or JESUS?

IF we believe not, HE abides faithful because HE cannot deny HIMSELF........WHO is the "WE" and the "HE" and NOTE ONE of the "WE" is an APOSTLE........

You guys have NO understanding and or know what you are talking about........you peddle this inept, liar that cannot keep his word, loses that which he has been given, yanks the irrevocable gift of LIFE and peddle a JESUS not found in scripture and to be honest it makes me sick......

 

[dcontroversal]

Saved person dying in sin because He had temporary faith. Even though the scripture says " He who says he knows God, and does not keep His commandments is a liar

Who do I believe? Apostle John or DCON? Umm...I think the answer is obvious.

You are right.....obvious to all that you don't know what you are talking about....

 

[dcontroversal]

Only that in which Jesus said.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. THEREFORE whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, AND DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
(Mat 7:15-24 KJV)

In summary....
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Depart from me, ye that work iniquity. THEREFORE (for that reason; consequently ) whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, AND DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

In other words Not doing the sayings of Jesus, the will of the FATHER is bad fruit; iniquity.

Blending faith and works for salvation is doing iniquity......it devalues Christ, makes void the word and calls God a liar......