United Methodists face vote on LGBTQ issues

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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#41
they never met. You read it again. Paul had a "vision" but never actually met Jesus in person.
"

They are? In quite a few of Paul's writings he says "this is my opinion". His teachings are reflective of Jesus' teachings but not the exact same thing. No. In fact, many scholars suggest that at least 4 of his letters are forged. Jesus did not directly meet Paul. He did not put his words into Pauls mouth. Jesus teachings were never written down so we have memories of what he said. Paul was a man. Jesus was the Son of God. They are most certainly NOT on the same level.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/december/9.25.html (this article is one of many that speaks to the difference).

You REALLY need to read your Bible!

Galatians 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me,

Now a little further down:

11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#42
"

They are? In quite a few of Paul's writings he says "this is my opinion". His teachings are reflective of Jesus' teachings but not the exact same thing. No. In fact, many scholars suggest that at least 4 of his letters are forged. Jesus did not directly meet Paul. He did not put his words into Pauls mouth. Jesus teachings were never written down so we have memories of what he said. Paul was a man. Jesus was the Son of God. They are most certainly NOT on the same level.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/december/9.25.html (this article is one of many that speaks to the difference).

BOX OF ROCKS.GIF
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#43
The fundamental truths are in Matthew. Chapters 5, 6 & 7. Of course I realize that mistakes through different translations and dialectics have occurred over 2,000 years but we have to believe something or else we be believe nothing.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#44
Read ... read ... read .... history, history of the bible, how it was put together, changes that might have been made ... scholars seek truth. I, like many non fundamentalist christians believe in God, in Jesus but do not believe the bible is innerrant. I also believe in Evolution which does not discount God at all. And in global warming. I don't need the bible to be completely innerrant to believe in God or in Jesus. I am a Red Letter Christian. If you read what the scholars have said on this and if you really look at the bible you will see that certain things are in error. People are errant and over time as the bible was written and rewritten and translated from one language to another, mistakes were made. one prime example is that the sun does not revolve around the earth for which Galileo was put to death for saying. the earth is not 6,000 years old. I cannot believe these things. To do so would be to deny the reality of evolution, that the earth revolves around the sun, etc.
In Other words, you make YOURSELF out to be god.

Same exact lie the woman believed from the devil in the garden.

"Did God really say..."

You pick and choose like your at a buffet, the parts you like, and discard the parts you don't like.
The Bible speaks of curses and punishment for those that do that.
Please repent and believe.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#45
Read ... read ... read .... history, history of the bible, how it was put together, changes that might have been made ... scholars seek truth. I, like many non fundamentalist christians believe in God, in Jesus but do not believe the bible is innerrant. I also believe in Evolution which does not discount God at all. And in global warming. I don't need the bible to be completely innerrant to believe in God or in Jesus. I am a Red Letter Christian. If you read what the scholars have said on this and if you really look at the bible you will see that certain things are in error. People are errant and over time as the bible was written and rewritten and translated from one language to another, mistakes were made. one prime example is that the sun does not revolve around the earth for which Galileo was put to death for saying. the earth is not 6,000 years old. I cannot believe these things. To do so would be to deny the reality of evolution, that the earth revolves around the sun, etc.
Let me please explain the Big Bang theory. In the beginning GOD said "let there be light." Bang there was light. the whole universe was created over 6 of Gods days and on the 7th he rested. We didn't have clocks or calendars and the Bible wasn't dictated to doubters or scientists. He explained enough to Job. when he said "I will ask you and you will answer me. If you understand. Where were you when I laid the earths foundations?"
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#46
In Other words, you make YOURSELF out to be god.

Same exact lie the woman believed from the devil in the garden.

"Did God really say..."

You pick and choose like your at a buffet, the parts you like, and discard the parts you don't like.
The Bible speaks of curses and punishment for those that do that.
Please repent and believe.

It sounds like she is 1 of these:
The Socinians held to a rationalistic approach to Scripture and to faith. This philosophical approach, especially in regard to biblical doctrine, declares that all religious matters must be fully reconcilable with human reason, and that theological matters pertaining to the nature of God cannot be beyond the finite understanding of the human mind.

She may well be a believer in the only begotten Son of the Most High God. Which means she has everlasting life. What is evident in her postings here, is her not born again of the Spirit.
She may, in time!
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#47
Science still haven't figured out how or why humming birds and bumble bees fly. Because God wants the to is the most likely answer. Achems Razor says the easiest most simple answer is usually correct. "In the beginning God."
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
#48
It sounds like she is 1 of these:
The Socinians held to a rationalistic approach to Scripture and to faith. This philosophical approach, especially in regard to biblical doctrine, declares that all religious matters must be fully reconcilable with human reason, and that theological matters pertaining to the nature of God cannot be beyond the finite understanding of the human mind.

She may well be a believer in the only begotten Son of the Most High God. Which means she has everlasting life. What is evident in her postings here, is her not born again of the Spirit.
She may, in time!
There is no such thing as having eternal life and not being born again...

I'd say her "belief" is akin to James 2:19 except for the fact demons have enough sense to fear God and tremble.
 

SIMON55

Active member
Feb 15, 2019
538
193
43
MO,OK,AR
#49
We are absolutely to judge those that name themselves as a brother in the Church. But the exact opposite is true for those that are NOT a brother or sister in Christ. THEY should be welcomed so that they can hear the Word and be saved.
And if the offenders repent of their sin, they must be forgiven and accepted back.


So whatever UM individual Churches decide to not only accept homosexuals and the farce of marrying them, but in effect encourage that detestable behavior, those members should LEAVE that Church IMMEDIATELY.
Only God can judge because He is sinless. We (humans) are all sinners. There are many invisible sins, and so, we do not judge those sinners. We judge gay people because their sin is "visible" to us. Leave it in God's hands. I dont think you can encourage gay "behavior" (whatever that means) because you dont know what they do or dont do. To throw them out of the church is to do the exact opposite of what Jesus did. Jesus hung out with sinners and did not say "I wont hang out with you until you stop sinning". No. He modeled the right behaviour as should we all. Unless, and until, I am without sin, I will not judge their "sin". Unless, of course, they are harming another: examples wojuld be murderers, stealers, pedophiles, etc. If, like many divorced christians they are sinning, then no ... I can't do anything about that. They have to see it for themselves. It has been said "you cannot change others. you can only change yourself and that is hard enough.
I dont think I am better than any other sinner. Do you? If you find it detestable, ask yourself why since you dont have to do it. jmho, on this matter and humility is what Jesus asks of us.[/QUOTE]
Well a few minor considerations of your stated points...
1. Most the sinners Jesus hung out with he either healed and told them " Go and sin no more " Or he rebuked them , judged them, condemned them, Insulted their paternal heritage or their false doctrines.....
Whipped them....drove them away....called them thieves....LOL.....need more example? They exist !.....
Modern Christuan are always trying to paint Jesus as a panzy passivist who never judged or corrected or condemned anyone....
The record reflects that way of belief as delusional.....
Everyone wants to see him only as a sacrificial lamb from which only love and compassion...radiated from....well....he acted justly according to the situation warranted as necessary.
But, there existed more than passivity in his nature...so....If you wish to possess his wisdom to judge and call abominations for what they are then you will have to comprehend him as THE VICTORIOUS LION OF JUDAH .....which he also was and will be at second advent.
2......don't judge.....don't judge....don't judge.....OR LEST YE BE JUDGED BY THE SAME JUDGMENT YE MEET!!!!
In my opinion most christian use this as a cop out for not taking and supporting Gods position according to his word.....If God has already passed judgment and declared something an abomination then that is what it is....if you give support to going against what God has said the natural order is which he has declared to be an abomination then you are opposing God....so either you discern Gods word and support it .....or you don't it isn't a matter of judging...it is a matter of discerning. Just because you discern doesn't mean you have to practice condemnation....just stand firm on Gods word and say this is how God has judged it.
Very simple....you don't have to condemn or be violent or abusive but you don't have to accept an abomination to God either.....if you exercise accordance with Gods word then you have no fear of his retribution because you have discerned his judgment....not your own personal opinion.
So.....if you exercise proper judgment....the same judgment is going to be exercised on you whether you have solicited it by your own actions or not......You also will be judged by whether you chose to engage in abominations or not....
You aren't going to avoid Gods judgment nobody is.
And some abomination have already been judged as such the only question is if you are capable of discerning Gods word and identifying them.
But if you practice abominations not judging someone elses isnt going to avoid judgment of yours and condoning those of others isn't going to buy you any extra mercy or grace either.
What place has darkness with light......stand in the light and support the truth. Just don't condemn the sentencing is Gods.....if he has already condemned something its condemned....what favor is done by sugar coating it?
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#50
Modern Christuan are always trying to paint Jesus as a panzy passivist who never judged or corrected or condemned anyone....
The record reflects that way of belief as delusional.....
Everyone wants to see him only as a sacrificial lamb from which only love and compassion...radiated from....well....he acted justly according to the situation warranted as necessary.


"Every time I look into the Holy book I start to tremble. When I read about the part when the carpenter cleared the temple. Because the buyers and the sellers are no different fellas than what I profess to be." "It causes me shame to know we're not the people we should be." "Put your hand in the man who stilled the water..."
 

SIMON55

Active member
Feb 15, 2019
538
193
43
MO,OK,AR
#52
They only claim to be atheists' and refuse to acknowledge him because they won't admit they are ashamed. I heard someone say they are an atheist because God is a judgmental homophobic. They didn't even realize how oxymoronic that sounded.

It was at an open 12 step meeting that had nothing to do with sexuality. They opposed steps 2 & 3 which is recognizing there is a God and seeking his help. If you take God out of the steps it's just psychobabble.
Sad....but 2 funny....stuck on 1 because they can't do 2 or 3.... LOL...stuck being sick because they haven't really even taken the first step and admitted they were poweless to manage their own life....I would have told them they needed to go back out and waller in it some more till they found their bottom or learned to manage their alcohol and life without God.
That they weren't sick enough to change yet LOL.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#54
Sad....but 2 funny....stuck on 1 because they can't do 2 or 3.... LOL...stuck being sick because they haven't really even taken the first step and admitted they were poweless to manage their own life....I would have told them they needed to go back out and waller in it some more till they found their bottom or learned to manage their alcohol and life without God.
That they weren't sick enough to change yet LOL.
Yeah, true dat. You can't shout down somebody who's full of dung at a meeting but you can wonder how they stayed clean, sober or sane unless they replaced their old vice with meetings and rhetoric. Still loaded but just in their heads. It was a pitty.
 

SIMON55

Active member
Feb 15, 2019
538
193
43
MO,OK,AR
#55
Science still haven't figured out how or why humming birds and bumble bees fly. Because God wants the to is the most likely answer. Achems Razor says the easiest most simple answer is usually correct. "In the beginning God."
Actually Bob....science has figured it out....I don't have the youtube video link to post for you....but everything science knows about physics gravity and the molecular structure is falling apart....
Bumble bees and humming birds have hollow tubes in their wings that act as conduits for sound the buzzing sound is what allows them to defy human understanding....they fly by sound....apply this to Gods word...." Everything was spoken ( sound ) into existance "......the whole universe....God is God because he says he is I AM that I AM
Sound is frequency energy that can levitate the great unexplained monolithic stone structures into place. This age is the second earth age not the first. But the remnants of angels and giants remain....Do aliens come from the far reaches of the outer universe? Sight unseen until they arrive and then their cloaking devices fail to operate in our atmosphere?....or are they fallen ones and their demon offspring that pass through from the unseen dimension that surrounds us ? Just a little ironic that of all the telescopic equipment focused on the heavens they can never capture imagery of the aliens coming....they just appear from nowhere.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
145
43
#56
Our job as preacher is not to communicate the truth, but to communicate the truth in the way that makes the difference. Haranguing homosexuality from the pulpit may make us feel righteous, but it makes gays and lesbians feel despised and just ensures that they will reject the Gospel. Pre-evangelism is crucial. Homosexuals need to feel loved and welcome in the church until they can develop a healthy respect for God's Word and then reexamine their lifestyles. One of the most harmful clichés ever minted by evangelicals is "Love the sinne, but hate the sin." Hate is an energy felt as rejection by its target who won't feel loved by the preacher condemning them. Instead, we need to replace hatred in all its forms and accept seekers just the way they are until the Holy Spirit has a chance to woo them to God's grace through our positive accepting attitude and love.
 

SIMON55

Active member
Feb 15, 2019
538
193
43
MO,OK,AR
#57
It is awful to see how we exclude so many churches. The UMC is strong on social justice (helping those in need) which is what Jesus implored us to do. He also said we are to love our Neighbours ... all of them. At one time, Amercan churches were either white or black. We discriminated against and used the bible to justify it. Now it's the LGBQ community. I think we ought to let them into our Churches and let God do the rest.

Not sure what the "old time Gospel" is. I do know that the early church had a very different face than all the churches of today. It would be great if we could all unite rather than divide and judge those who think differently from us. To me, the main issues are:
1) Do we Love God
2) Do we Love our Neighbors (diff,churches, religions/belief systems, people we see as different from "us"). I think Jesus was radically INCLUSIVE. Not EXCLUDING others.
These were Jesus's two greatest commandments. I think we need to try to fullfill them, yet I know that we all fail to from time to time.
Well....#1 and #2 are circular....
If you Love God .....then Christ said....he and the father are 1 which to me means their word is the same....he also said he didn't change a dot or tittle.....and if you love me you will keep my word.....
So....its just circular....If you love them and their word you will keep it all....the first tablet of stone is your relationship with God ?
The second tablet is your relationship to your neighbors.....and Crist referencing them the way he did just takes you back to all of the commandments because you can't break any without failing to keep one of the greater two he referenced because all 1-5 are locked together and all 6-10 are locked together.....
So.....you have two category that within each are indivisible.....you can't seperate them further you violate at all you violate the greater of its category.....
So.....how many Christian actually Love God with all their heart and keep his words or even his commands?
What day do most keep the Sabbath on?..... Do most keep it on the day God says it is ?
( Friday sunset to Saturday sunset ) Or do they adhere to some false apostate doctrine of man......taught by harlot denomination that submits to the authority of The Mother Whore Babylon Beast riding blaspheming Idol worshipping pagan roman Mark of the Beast sun-god-day martyr saint blood drunken fornicating SABBATH ?.......do you love God or Rome whose authority do you worship ?.....whose sign seal and mark of authority do you take......Christ said he doesn't change one dot or tittle so I don't want see any false doctrine mumbo jumbo replies about the ressurection or day of pentecost....
Gods word is unchanged by Gods word so any change to Laws and times done by an Antuchrists Beasts THOUGHT
Is invalid and uncredible false authority impersonation!
So......who do you worship mixed Iron and clay that doesn't mix ?.....lies and the truth which doesnt mix either a blaspheming man of lawlessness?
Or do you Love God and keep his word ? Or are you a Pagan sun-god-day worshipper?
Do you discern the word of the God you love and keep it or.....do you not comprehend prophetical interpretation of Daniel and Revelation?
Cause.......God says the pagans will perish......and his word doesnt say that Jesus loving Evangelists that take the Pagan Mark will be exempt
He says take the Pagan Mark YOU PERISH!!!! No evangelist trump card mentioned....no good works mentioned. ..Just many shall be deceived and take the pagan authority mark and perish!
 

SIMON55

Active member
Feb 15, 2019
538
193
43
MO,OK,AR
#58
Our job as preacher is not to communicate the truth, but to communicate the truth in the way that makes the difference. Haranguing homosexuality from the pulpit may make us feel righteous, but it makes gays and lesbians feel despised and just ensures that they will reject the Gospel. Pre-evangelism is crucial. Homosexuals need to feel loved and welcome in the church until they can develop a healthy respect for God's Word and then reexamine their lifestyles. One of the most harmful clichés ever minted by evangelicals is "Love the sinne, but hate the sin." Hate is an energy felt as rejection by its target who won't feel loved by the preacher condemning them. Instead, we need to replace hatred in all its forms and accept seekers just the way they are until the Holy Spirit has a chance to woo them to God's grace through our positive accepting attitude and love.
Let me ask you a ?
Do you believe that God doesn't HATE ?
How do you define an abomination?
Have you read Gods word?
Do you believe Jesus never hated anything?
Hate is a strong word but so is abomination what is the difference ? Can you explain a difference in detail?
More ?.....has God ever ordered people to be killed ? Has ever said he would smear poop in someones face.....?
Has he ever said many shall be deceived by false apostate doctrines of men and that they would perish under the mark of those authorities?
 
M

Miri

Guest
#59
When it becomes fashionable to declare yourself a different gender.

To leave either the mother or father’s names off birth certificates as
mothers and fathers no longer exist.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ghts-landmark-case-family-court-a8562021.html

To accept gay clergy and for it to be perfectly ok to marry
men to men and women to women.

To subject young children to confusion about what is male and female.

In other words to completely go against the patterns for marriage and
family life, as created by God. To make a complete mockery and make out that
what is normal is abnormal and what is abnormal is to be treated as normal.

To have to make a choice whether to disagree with the things going on
in this corrupt world, or turn a blind eye in the interests of political correctness.

Then we will really know who are His children. A time will eventually come when real Christians
will have to make a stand and possibly face being thrown out of jobs, imprisonment,
or worse. Because they dare to openly say this is all just so wrong and out of control.

Church leaders and pastors who even consider employing gay leaders or allowing
same sex marriages in their churches, one will day have to give an account to God.
How can organisations which are suppose to uphold the word of God, allow gay
priests, bishops whatever title they are given, how can they allow them to lead
churches.

It’s like handing Satan free rein to do what ever he likes with Gods people.

Never forget the origins of all this stuff going on. It’s not just about people, it’s a
battle of good verses evil. It’s Satan trying to corrupt Gods creation, trying to
destroy family life, trying to make men, women and children fall so badly and from
such a great height that there is no way back for them.

Of course there is always Jesus the way, truth and life. But start to corrupt the
very core of who people are destroy society from the inside out and it is almost
impossible to find the way back to normal.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
145
43
#60
Simon: "Do you believe that God doesn't HATE ?
First, your question wrongly assumes that we must imitate God. God says, "Vengeance is mine. I will repay, says the Lord." But we ae forbidden to be vengeful or hateful.
Second, you apparently don't understand the meaning of the Hebrew word for "hate." It often does NOT express loathing or negative emotion, but rather preference and priorities. Thus, Jesus teaches that we can't be His disciples unless we "hate" our families.
" God is love and in Him is no darkness at all."

Simon: "Do you believe Jesus never hated anything?"
Jesus was fully human, "grew in wisdom and favor with God," had to Learn obedience through the things He suffered," and "was tested in every way just as we are." So yes, Jesus had to battle the whole range of human emotions, including hatred. \
How do you define an abomination?

Simon: "Have you read Gods word?"
Yes, and I love God's Word enough to learn Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Do you?