Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

LOL - This is getting hilarious - Someone says I (Chester) still believe "salvation can be lost" - and then another says that I am right!

If you want to talk about what I believe, it might be better to get it right from the horse's mouth. But this horse is going to keep his mouth shut for now.

Am I wrong Chester....I have engaged you before and if I remember right you believe salvation can be lost...YES or NO?

 

[Deade]

OK - suppose we start with the foundation of what I believe:

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to Earth as the Lamb of God. He lived a perfect life, shed his blood on the Cross for our salvation, and then rose in power from the dead! Those who believe in Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection have their sins forgiven, are saved in the good old fashioned way, are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and are given the gift of eternal life. Amen and amen!

I think the Scriptures in context teach that those who believe are saved, and those who do not believe are not saved. Quite simple, really.

So, it boils down to this: Can one stop believing

 

[dcontroversal]

Eventually, we make our way out of ALL the denominations, including non-denominational and find our identity “In Christ” alone.

I enjoy listening to sermons and the fellowship with other believers in Christian churches but, I only identify with Christ- Yeshua/Jesus.

I have always enjoyed your spirit.....and agree with many things you have said.......not all....but a lot.....

 

[dcontroversal]

So, it boils down to this: Can one stop believing View attachment 194138

AND I say....if we say YES...to the point of losing salvation then the bible is false.....IT states clearly that JESUS finishes and COMPLETES the work of faith he BEGINS IN US.......and it also states...

IF WE believe NOT, Christ abides FAITHFUL because he cannot deny HIMSELF

NOTICE THE WORD WE <---THE APOSTLE includes himself in this.........

 

[dcontroversal]

OK - suppose we start with the foundation of what I believe:

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to Earth as the Lamb of God. He lived a perfect life, shed his blood on the Cross for our salvation, and then rose in power from the dead! Those who believe in Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection have their sins forgiven, are saved in the good old fashioned way, are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and are given the gift of eternal life. Amen and amen!

I think the Scriptures in context teach that those who believe are saved, and those who do not believe are not saved. Quite simple, really.

Do you believe it can be lost or forfeit?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i never called JESUS a liar, what are you talking about?

and what am i gonna pay for? i repented of my sins and asked Jesus in my heart when i was 18, so according to you i'm heaven bound with the hammer down and i couldn't go to HELL even if i wanted to (according to your doctrine)


yes he did but what does that have to do with the prodigal son? the prodigal son didnt "WANDER" off
there is a big difference in someone "wandering" away and someone packing his stuff and "lEAVING" which by the way, i have never said that i believe you can lose your salvation, but you can leave your salvation


dont cherry pick Hebrews 6 look at it closely
Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

the word "crucify" is a present tense verb meaning its something they are doing presently

its simple, if your sinning (presently) stop and repent and he is faithful and just to forgive but it is impossible to be renewed if you chose to stay in your sin and crucify (not crucified) God afresh......

This is no different than being under law, if sin cause me to die again, then sacrifice must be accomplished again, ie, jesus death was not enough,

This was the point of hebrews 6 tobegin with, those who try to go back to law put jesus to shame.either have s death was sufficient, or it was not ans we are all doomed

As you can see charlirenee, this is the argument, it is not against works, it is against the self righteous who think theof can save themselves.

 

[dcontroversal]

This is no different than being under law, if sin cause me to die again, then sacrifice must be accomplished again, ie, jesus death was not enough,

This was the point of hebrews 6 tobegin with, those who try to go back to law put jesus to shame.either have s death was sufficient, or it was not ans we are all doomed

As you can see charlirenee, this is the argument, it is not against works, it is against the self righteous who think theof can save themselves.

AMEN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>from day one

 

[unclesilas]

"

you seriously believe there will people in heaven that has "departed from the faith" and gave heed to doctrines of devils???

Can you show me where I wrote that?

 

[unclesilas]

So what......no offence, but the church I grew up in taught a bunch of things I do not agree with after almost 35 years of study.........that means nothing to me in the grand scheme of things....

Possibly if you grew up feeling crushed to despair due to being indoctrinated with heavy legalism, it may make you more appreciative of what you are later given

 

[dcontroversal]

Possibly if you grew up feeling crushed to despair due to being indoctrinated with heavy legalism, it may make you more appreciative of what you are later given

The whole book of Galatians is against legalism......and I despise it in any of it's forms..........Jesus set us free from that crap......and we are free indeed........and make no mistake, the church I grew up in had it's own legalistic rigmarole....

 

[unclesilas]

The whole book of Galatians is against legalism......and I despise it in any of it's forms..........Jesus set us free from that crap......and we are free indeed........and make no mistake, the church I grew up in had it's own legalistic rigmarole....

I used to think Galatians was the main book to look to concerning being against legalism, but it is Romans in my view that best explains it

 

[dcontroversal]

I used to think Galatians was the main book to look to concerning being against legalism, but it is Romans in my view that best explains it

Numerous books deal with different aspects of it.....and from different views...........

 

[unclesilas]

Numerous books deal with different aspects of it.....and from different views...........

If you are as in earnest about Christianity as saul the pharisee was about the phariseeic religion, and try to attain heaven as he did, you will end up as he described in romans7:7-11. As tragically happens all too often today to so many people

 

[Macabeus]

Um, they don't start out as sons!

In the parable, the Prodigal started as a son, went away as a son, and came back as a son.

They whole point to the story is one can indeed wander away from God and yet will always remain His child.

The Bible says we are not children of God by creation, only by adoption.

The interpretive key to all three parables is in the setting, occasion, context. Luke 15:1-3 You are mishandling the Word. That is why your theology is bad.

 

[CharliRenee]

Look, I like you and your stance on many things....but sometimes the way you write, like in the post above, seems to make the two opposing stances in this thread seem equal.....and they are not equal....notice the following statements.....to me....there seems to be many contradictions in what you say......My comments in bolded



He calls us...He saves us...He keeps us and we know that because we walk in His ways. <----TRUE and what we have been arguing for while arguing against those who deny this and say WE MUST KEEP OURSELVES SAVED

What is works, in the eyes of many? Is believing a work? Is trusting a work? <---FAITH is a gift so it cannot be a work on our part another thing that we are arguing against

Jesus died for us, not just so we could be squared away but so we could be of use to God, saving us from our own selves. <---True...so we can be justified and saved from our sinful state having the righteousness of Christ imputed by faith without works, again something we have been arguing against...those who would corrupt this truth


Do I think perserverence plays a role, do I think our faith should be seen in all that we do, don't do, say, and think, appealing for the cause of God...Yes. Do I think it possible without Him...No. <---Explain underlined....this seems to indicate that WE keep ourseves saved by what we DO.....agree that without him we can do nothing

Our faith, period, brings us home and also pays Him forward in our thoughts and actions. <---I thought love for what he has done is what "pays it forward"

His work = Faith = Salvation = more of His working within = sanctification to walk with Him, in His ways, which produces more faith, not more salvation. <--agreed....salvation is a done deal and sanctification is a process of growth and maturity.....

I just think we never want to devalue His work within, transforming us to His Glory, in all ways. We can not earn salvation but our salvation does produce evidence of Him dwelling within. How else could we examine our hearts, or spirits, or anything if salvation was not evident. I do not believe we should strive, because the great I Am thrives. <--No one has done this....the thread is about biblical salvation and how it is gained....BY FAITH....we have all said that we will bear fruit and or works, but that these things come with time, maturity and in various forms from bad to good in all believers....

I have mulled this over and over, trying to find harmony within all the scriptures and I finally found the answer, lol, it's all about Him, we can't do any of it without Him. And with Him, we get to have a life and purpose worth living. We get to work for God. We don't have to!!! <---agreed, but again the scope of this thread has always been about biblical eternal salvation by faith and there is harmony of scriptures when viewed in an honest manner..

I use to feel I needed to pick a side on this debate, lol. I can be quite foolish sometimes. The only thing I need to pick is Him and His Glory in our lives. <---THIS IS the one that really bothered me and in my view not a biblical statement....this thread is arguing for biblical salvation and against the corrupted versions of salvation peddled by many on this site.....if you agree it is by faith through grace, eternally given and sustained by Christ and not dependent upon what we do or say then to not take a side is to oppose the truth IMO......

Thank you for walking me through. I appreciate your time and efforts.

I think when we try and work our way to heaven, we devalue His atonement. However, I do think salvation brings fruits. Fruits that are paid forward because I think they are His. He inspires and empowers, we are merely walking in the Spirit. I do think His calling is important and that our walk should be intentional, does that make me on the fence?

I think the problem is clear from what you said and Brother Eternally grateful said...I need more study, more understanding because I think His work produces our faith and His work produces our fruit.

Hmmmm, I clearly need to examine this more.

Thanks for indulging me and giving me more clarity on this debate and why it triggers the intense responses.

I don't like when you get frustrated with me or to others concerning my take, expressing and thinking I am fence ridding or smooth talking, seeking only to bring watered down, wishy washy version of faith in order to bring peace. I do appreciate that you are honest with me, though. I do disagree but after your examining my words more closely with me, I can see why and how you perceive it fence sitting.

I just need practice at giving you the what for back, hahaha. Jkidding brother. This stuff is so worth digging in and requires a tough skin, something He is also helping me with. I think through you, hahaha. I also love love love that you communicated clearly, walking me through the specifics, as that truly helped me understand some things.

Ok, going back to the drawing board... Him

 

[CharliRenee]

Yes, what you are talking about is the sanctifying process of God working in us, to bring forth good works.

The issue here is we are trying to talk about justification, the act of god making us right before him, in the act of adopting us as sons and daughters giving us eternal life. (We have een saved)

In this context (which is what this thread is about) works is not an issue, because no one alive or living at any time could ever add 1 work to the cross to bring about the justification of the soul,

Yet if you read this thread. Countless people say this is wrong, works are required. They maintain salvation, a lack of work or obedience of any kind can cause salvation to be lost.

This is the battle being waged between grace vs works. While i agree, ther can be an issue with easy believism, sadly i think satan has took the war against that and turned to to legalism. And uses easy believism as it battle cry.

The fact is, both easy believism and legalism are two sides of the same coin, pride. One says they do not have to repent and they can live however they please, the other refuses to get on their knees and give it all to god, they still think they are not really sinners (they do not commit these sins) and that their work is so great god will accept it when theyget to heaven.

God has not known any of these two groups, he will tell both to depart, sadly, true grace believers are atuck in the middle, called legalist by easy believers because we teach works, and called easy believers by legalists because we reject works as a means of maintai ing our salvation

First, thanks so much brother for your time and clarification. I have more understanding now that this is not merely a what comes first, like the chicken and the egg, debate. We see in Exodus when moses threw down the tablets after the incident with Aaron and the golden calf...

Wait, I am just digging in and I need more understanding before I interject more here.

So this sister is going back to her exodus study. Thanks for your patience and your time.

God Bless you, Brother.

 

[dcontroversal]

If you are as in earnest about Christianity as saul the pharisee was about the phariseeic religion, and try to attain heaven as he did, you will end up as he described in romans7:7-11. As tragically happens all too often today to so many people

If you think I am anything like Saul in my approach to the word you have not been reading anything I have written........??

 

[Macabeus]

Um, they don't start out as sons!

In the parable, the Prodigal started as a son, went away as a son, and came back as a son.

They whole point to the story is one can indeed wander away from God and yet will always remain His child.

The Bible says we are not children of God by creation, only by adoption.

You are not interpreting the parable of the prodigal correctly because you reading too much into Jesus’ use of the word son. Go to Matthew 21:28-32 and tell me who the two sons represent there. Did they start out as sons in the parable? Please respond to these two questions

You people mishandle the word BADLY.

 

[dcontroversal]

Thank you for walking me through. I appreciate your time and efforts.

I think when we try and work our way to heaven, we devalue His atonement. However, I do think salvation brings fruits. Fruits that are paid forward because I think they are His. He inspires and empowers, we are merely walking in the Spirit. I do think His calling is important and that our walk should be intentional, does that make me on the fence?

I think the problem is clear from what you said and Brother Eternally grateful said...I need more study, more understanding because I think His work produces our faith and His work produces our fruit.

Hmmmm, I clearly need to examine this more.

Thanks for indulging me and giving me more clarity on this debate and why it triggers the intense responses.

I don't like when you get frustrated with me or to others concerning my take, expressing and thinking I am fence ridding or smooth talking, seeking only to bring watered down, wishy washy version of faith in order to bring peace. I do appreciate that you are honest with me, though. I do disagree but after your examining my words more closely with me, I can see why and how you perceive it fence sitting.

I just need practice at giving you the what for back, hahaha. Jkidding brother. This stuff is so worth digging in and requires a tough skin, something He is also helping me with. I think through you, hahaha. I also love love love that you communicated clearly, walking me through the specifics, as that truly helped me understand some things.

Ok, going back to the drawing board... Him

AMEN......and as evidenced on many occasions....I am super passionate about defending salvation and the integrity of Christ, his promises, his power and all of the scriptures that prove the security of the believer.....................thanks for being more loving than I appear to be at times.............I am just a hard man at times and the Marine comes out more often than not............no excuses nonetheless......

 

[Macabeus]

I really do not understand your point

What merit are you talking about

I am saying that works salvation is nonsense because we cannot use what we have received from God, which is EVERYTHING that is good, and then think these free gifts can be meritorious, ie if we have nothing good that we did not receive from God, how can we claim that our works are meritorious


You guys are arguing with someone who is not only saying that salvation is all from God, but also that all that is good comes from God, and apart from Him we have nothing and can do nothing. This destroys the concept that we somehow earn salvation by our works

Highest view of Grace possible is what I am presenting