Not By Works

CharliRenee · Feb 10, 2019

Ok, now you see, I think eternally grateful and Budman are correct and that they both have biblically valid points. I think you both are on opposing sides, so humor me a bit, will you brothers?

So you both agree Faith in Him is the ingredient that saves, but that we can please/honor our Lord in our choices, right?

I think that maybe I am looking at this too simplistically, but I appreciate you for seeking to help me understand and doing so with patience.

Argueless · Feb 10, 2019

dcontroversal said:

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”... Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God. If they were deceived, why can't you?

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why refuse to take heed of them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

Macabeus · Feb 10, 2019

gb9 said:

I provided a link and two post numbers. Go read without prejudice. Unless I need to copy and paste them to show everyone your prejudice and bias

dcontroversal · Feb 10, 2019

On a completely different note.....On occasion I will rip up some of the books I have to start fires in the wood stove with.....always idiotic books that are false or worldly or something along that line.....well....I was looking at a few books I have left laying around and picked one up and was gonna start ripping it up to burn and then decided to look at it before I started tearing pages out.....and to my surprise....it is a Vintage 1832 Watson's Theological Dictionary.......in very good condition....HAHHA forgot I have it........anyone with an idea of it's value?

blue_ladybug · Feb 10, 2019

Is it just me, or is it quite petty to tell another member that their cat emojis and avatar pic are annoying to scroll past, and so that member should stop posting on this thread??

I mean, really? If you don't like my cat emojis or avatar pic, feel free to put me on ignore. Then you won't see them.

Cuz I'm NOT gonna stop using cat emojis and I'm NOT removing my avatar pic. I don't give a flying fig whether you like it or not..

CharliRenee · Feb 10, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Hey brother, please know that I understand your frustration with my approach and or beliefs. I get that...

He divides and separates to bring unity...unity with Him (and His people). Unity with all mankind, no matter what, compromises our union with Him.

My response is nor was intended to be all warm and fuzzy, with no lines clearly drawn, to keep peace. It was just my thoughts on the matter.

BillG · Feb 10, 2019

safswan said:

Still saved.

Romans 4:3-6
3 For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”
4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. 5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners. 6 David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it:

Honestly your quote/question above is.

Well I wont say my thoughts.

Anyway.

Do you continue to fail?
Do you never get it wrong?

If so then you are going to hell.
Just like the others you condemn to hell.

That being the case. I'll walk down that road with you.
Because like you I'm not perfect either and do not have enough works to keep me saved, because when I fail I have allowed Satan into my heart and the Holy Spirit has left me.

It's a good job Peter was saved when the devil deceived him.

But as for you and me.

Hot poker up the bum time.

Shocking, truly shocking.

dcontroversal · Feb 10, 2019

blue_ladybug said:

WE LOVE CATS.....I HAVE 9 hahahahhahahahh keep posting cats....God made cats so we can pet lions and tigers, leopards, and black panthers HAHAHAHHAH

blue_ladybug · Feb 10, 2019

CharliRenee · Feb 10, 2019

dcontroversal said:

I don't believe for one second I am on the fence. I do realize the importance and value of His atonement bringing our salvation.

If my stance sounds middle ground or like on the fence, then maybe what is lacking is my clarity.

I stand with Jesus!!! He gets us to Heaven and He brings us to Glory and He helps us die to ourselves. I still have work to do, brother, NOT for salvation but sanctification. However, I know it is on Him, that He will bring me home, not me. He get's all the Glory, 100%!!!

I don't think that is a position of middle ground. But I will examine my heart and pray that He helps me understand.

gb9 · Feb 10, 2019

Macabeus said:

I did read the links you provided.

nowhere in them were the words " can be a believer for many years without bearing any fruit ".

so, I ask you a 3rd time- show a post where those words are written.

blue_ladybug · Feb 10, 2019

gb9 said:

He can't, because such a post does not exist...

Hevosmies · Feb 10, 2019

Argueless said:

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”... Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God. If they were deceived, why can't you?

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why refuse to take heed of them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

You always copy paste this same message

Could you answer "born again of INCORRUPTIBLE seed"?
How does incorruptible seed turn into corruptible?

unclesilas · Feb 10, 2019

VCO said:

Prove that the so-called gifts of Healing are REAL. A Group Students from a non-charismatic BIBLE COLLEGE went to interview, Kathryn Kulman back in the early 70's. They asked her if she had healed people with Terminal Diseases, and could she prove it, by providing a list of names from five years earlier, and Addresses of 10 of them. She said YES, and week to a file cabinet, and proceeded to copy down those ten Names and Addresses down.

They found out that while they had psychological symptoms of well being for a few days, after the supposed HEALING, all had the symptoms of the disease return, and all TEN had DIED OF THEIR DISEASE.

Conclusion, while GOD HEALS in answer to PRAYER, THE GIFT OF HEALING was a genuine MIRACLE Apostolic Gift for the Apostles ONLY, to validate the NEW TESTAMENT as it was FIRST being Spoken. He does not give the Miracle Gifts today.

Many of the so-called Faith HEALERS, are religious Con-artists, while the REST are Self Deceived.

HERE IS THE PURPOSE FOR THOSE MIRACLE GIFTS:

Mark 16:20 (NIV)
20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and
the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Kathryn Khulman did not claim she personally healed anyone. For a healing to be placed in her books, it had to have taken place at least five years previously, with no re-ocurrance of the illness, and two doctors who had previously treated the person testified of their former condition and the medical records were released

eternally-gratefull · Feb 10, 2019

CharliRenee said:

Yes, what you are talking about is the sanctifying process of God working in us, to bring forth good works.

The issue here is we are trying to talk about justification, the act of god making us right before him, in the act of adopting us as sons and daughters giving us eternal life. (We have een saved)

In this context (which is what this thread is about) works is not an issue, because no one alive or living at any time could ever add 1 work to the cross to bring about the justification of the soul,

Yet if you read this thread. Countless people say this is wrong, works are required. They maintain salvation, a lack of work or obedience of any kind can cause salvation to be lost.

This is the battle being waged between grace vs works. While i agree, ther can be an issue with easy believism, sadly i think satan has took the war against that and turned to to legalism. And uses easy believism as it battle cry.

The fact is, both easy believism and legalism are two sides of the same coin, pride. One says they do not have to repent and they can live however they please, the other refuses to get on their knees and give it all to god, they still think they are not really sinners (they do not commit these sins) and that their work is so great god will accept it when theyget to heaven.

God has not known any of these two groups, he will tell both to depart, sadly, true grace believers are atuck in the middle, called legalist by easy believers because we teach works, and called easy believers by legalists because we reject works as a means of maintai ing our salvation

dcontroversal · Feb 10, 2019

CharliRenee said:

Look, I like you and your stance on many things....but sometimes the way you write, like in the post above, seems to make the two opposing stances in this thread seem equal.....and they are not equal....notice the following statements.....to me....there seems to be many contradictions in what you say......My comments in bolded

He calls us...He saves us...He keeps us and we know that because we walk in His ways. <----TRUE and what we have been arguing for while arguing against those who deny this and say WE MUST KEEP OURSELVES SAVED

What is works, in the eyes of many? Is believing a work? Is trusting a work? <---FAITH is a gift so it cannot be a work on our part another thing that we are arguing against

Jesus died for us, not just so we could be squared away but so we could be of use to God, saving us from our own selves. <---True...so we can be justified and saved from our sinful state having the righteousness of Christ imputed by faith without works, again something we have been arguing against...those who would corrupt this truth

Do I think perserverence plays a role, do I think our faith should be seen in all that we do, don't do, say, and think, appealing for the cause of God...Yes. Do I think it possible without Him...No. <---Explain underlined....this seems to indicate that WE keep ourseves saved by what we DO.....agree that without him we can do nothing

Our faith, period, brings us home and also pays Him forward in our thoughts and actions. <---I thought love for what he has done is what "pays it forward"

His work = Faith = Salvation = more of His working within = sanctification to walk with Him, in His ways, which produces more faith, not more salvation. <--agreed....salvation is a done deal and sanctification is a process of growth and maturity.....

I just think we never want to devalue His work within, transforming us to His Glory, in all ways. We can not earn salvation but our salvation does produce evidence of Him dwelling within. How else could we examine our hearts, or spirits, or anything if salvation was not evident. I do not believe we should strive, because the great I Am thrives. <--No one has done this....the thread is about biblical salvation and how it is gained....BY FAITH....we have all said that we will bear fruit and or works, but that these things come with time, maturity and in various forms from bad to good in all believers....

I have mulled this over and over, trying to find harmony within all the scriptures and I finally found the answer, lol, it's all about Him, we can't do any of it without Him. And with Him, we get to have a life and purpose worth living. We get to work for God. We don't have to!!! <---agreed, but again the scope of this thread has always been about biblical eternal salvation by faith and there is harmony of scriptures when viewed in an honest manner..

I use to feel I needed to pick a side on this debate, lol. I can be quite foolish sometimes. The only thing I need to pick is Him and His Glory in our lives. <---THIS IS the one that really bothered me and in my view not a biblical statement....this thread is arguing for biblical salvation and against the corrupted versions of salvation peddled by many on this site.....if you agree it is by faith through grace, eternally given and sustained by Christ and not dependent upon what we do or say then to not take a side is to oppose the truth IMO......

Macabeus · Feb 10, 2019

gb9 said:

Try post 84,217

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4211#post-3846455

Macabeus · Feb 10, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Here it is GB9, point 1 , a person can be saved for years without bearing fruit..

What do you say now, Maestro?

Just like he said in the other posts. DID YOU HEAR HIM? HE said "I WILL SAY IT AGAIN". You did not see it because of your apriori BIAS

Now leave off the silliness

DID YOU GET IT THIS TIME?!!! or will you ONCE AGAIN deny what is clearly PUT RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU

There is some serious bias and prejudice going on here, and you proved it.

Have a nice day. I'm going to a play.

unclesilas · Feb 10, 2019

There is nothing more nauseating than people who like to spend their time on the internet arguing/debating the bible, because that is what they enjoy doing, eagerly criticising people, who, in the end surrendered their lives to Christ. In Kathryn Khulmans case foresaking marriage and a family in order to do so. Miracles of healing of terminal illnesses could only be put in her books if they satisfied the following criteria:
The healing had taken place at least five years previously with no re-occurrence of the illness
Two doctors testified to the persons former condition
The medical records were released.
She gave the glory to God for the healings, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Better to do that than try and explain the work of the Holy Spirit away as something that never really happened

gb9 · Feb 10, 2019

Macabeus said:

all right. it's there. I stand corrected.

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