Praying in Tongues

[Noose]

again you do not understand, it was Jesus who said they the "apostles" do greater and again you do not know the Greek word for "greater" which is NOT greater as in Superior but in the context of doing far more Through empowered Church. that's it. stop reading into the text.

'Greek' hah? How convenient. What about 'these works'? as far as English is concerned, preaching the gospel can never be referred to as 'these works'.
Either way, cessation is real, if Jesus healed the sick and raised the dead and you can not do it yet are a member of the church that believes, then it all ceased. Do not point someone else, i'm talking about you.

 

[CS1]

Does Jude 20 by any chance cancel what was said earlier?

When it is said 'love is about others and not self' does Jude reverse that and say love is about self?

the Bible does not say self-gratification as you suggest. In 1cor 14 it says 1cor 14:4

4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

Gratify is not edify. You changed the word of God out of your bias. That is why you are in error. Gratify is pleasing self or another.

Edifying is providing moral or intellectual instruction. instructive or informative in a way that improves the mind or character
The word of God says one who speaks in tongues speaks to God Mysteries. Self-gratification is nowhere in 1cor 12 to 14.

 

[CS1]

'Greek' hah? How convenient. What about 'these works'? as far as English is concerned, preaching the gospel can never be referred to as 'these works'.
Either way, cessation is real, if Jesus healed the sick and raised the dead and you can not do it yet are a member of the church that believes, then it all ceased. Do not point someone else, i'm talking about you.

you were told greater works is doing more of what Jesus did.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

sadly, the word 'love' has become one giant red herring in this thread

 

[CS1]

If people must learn Greek to understand the scripture then the gift of tongues must have a been a waste of time (God forbid).

your arrogance and rudeness are more of a waste of time. When many here are being respectful you again result to insults.

 

[garee]

One thing I have learned is that one of God's names used as a immutable attribute is... "Jealous". .He alone owns all things and is of one mind always doing whatsoever His soul desires.

God is Love and not that he can work it out in us , but more that he is the source of Love (God is Spirit). Love is the spirit of life . as Christ said in John 6; His words they are spirit they are life.

Death, corruption the destruction of that Holy Spirit.

God's working of Love as the first work or fruit of the Spirit is..... God is patient as in long suffering fulfilling that work it can work to create the second aspect.... Love is kind as result of His patience. and down the line reaching perfect in the fulness of all This is when we will receive our new incorruptible bodies the goal of our faith .

We can work to love because His love is patient, the fruit of self control (his) that works in us with us . Our love should strive for perfection but many times falls along the line . Try and be satisfied with it , treasure it and hope it will increase, as we rest in His love.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Our love cannot be jealous we are bought at a price, he paid it in full . Again we are given the treasures of a new heart , a desire to serve him not seen and spirit that will no never die .

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

 

[Noose]

you were told greater works is doing more of what Jesus did.

I was not told, i read and understood that the works that Jesus was talking about include healing, raising the dead and many other miracles that confirmed the message of salvation.
He told the disciples, those among them that believe will do greater works than what He did.We see similar promise in Mark 16- including picking up snakes. They were not meant for everyone.

 

[Noose]

your arrogance and rudeness are more of a waste of time. When many here are being respectful you again result to insults.

Telling people they don't understand the bible because they don't understand Greek is rude.
Does salvation start from Greece?

 

[CS1]

I was not told, i read and understood that the works that Jesus was talking about include healing, raising the dead and many other miracles that confirmed the message of salvation.
He told the disciples, those among them that believe will do greater works than what He did.We see similar promise in Mark 16- including picking up snakes. They were not meant for everyone.

the context of serpents and scorpions can also me flase teaching

Telling people they don't understand the bible because they don't understand Greek is rude.
Does salvation start from Greece?

you do not understand the Greek word for Greater in context to the very words of Jesus. Does salvation start from English LOL . Your point is what?

 

[Hevosmies]

sadly, the word 'love' has become one giant red herring in this thread

Jokes on em!

I dont know what red herring means! (no seriously, i dont know, im not joking)

 

[CS1]

Jokes on em!

I dont know what red herring means! (no seriously, i dont know, im not joking)

Red Herring: bluff, blind, ruse, feint, deception, subterfuge, hoax, trick, ploy, device, wile, sham, pretense, artifice, cover, smokescreen, distraction, expedient, contrivance,

 

[Dino246]

I'm not the one equating, that's exactly what Paul is teaching concerning tongues:

The word is "equivocating", not "equating". They don't mean the same thing.

Self edification was the problem at Corinth. There's no love in self edification and where there's no love, there's no God.

I thought we were done with this topic. Apparently not.

The Greek of Jude 20 uses the same word and the same concept as the Greek of 1 Cor 14:4. If it is negative in Corinthians (where the context is less clear), it's negative in Jude. However, it's clearly positive in Jude, which means that it must be positive in Corinthians. As a principle of interpretation, you take what is clear and/or certain into what is unclear or uncertain.

Because you refuse to look at the Greek, you may not see the similarity of phrase. Let's take a closer look:

1 Corinthians 14:4a One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself;

Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

The Greek for "edifies" is the same root as the Greek for "building up". It means the same thing. Jude admonishes the believers (as a group of individuals) to "edify yourself, praying in the Holy Spirit". Paul links speaking in tongues to praying in the spirit/Spirit later in 1 Cor 14. You either have to reject Jude or you have to change your thinking on Paul.

Well, of course, you could simply retreat into cognitive dissonance, but I won't join you there.

 

[Dino246]

Jokes on em!

I dont know what red herring means! (no seriously, i dont know, im not joking)

A red herring is a separate issue which may or may not be related, introduced by one party to throw attention off the issue at hand, usually when further attention to it would bring embarrassment to that party.

 

[Noose]

The word is "equivocating", not "equating". They don't mean the same thing.


I thought we were done with this topic. Apparently not.

The Greek of Jude 20 uses the same word and the same concept as the Greek of 1 Cor 14:4. If it is negative in Corinthians (where the context is less clear), it's negative in Jude. However, it's clearly positive in Jude, which means that it must be positive in Corinthians. As a principle of interpretation, you take what is clear and/or certain into what is unclear or uncertain.

Because you refuse to look at the Greek, you may not see the similarity of phrase. Let's take a closer look:

1 Corinthians 14:4a One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself;

Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

The Greek for "edifies" is the same root as the Greek for "building up". It means the same thing. Jude admonishes the believers (as a group of individuals) to "edify yourself, praying in the Holy Spirit". Paul links speaking in tongues to praying in the spirit/Spirit later in 1 Cor 14. You either have to reject Jude or you have to change your thinking on Paul.

Well, of course, you could simply retreat into cognitive dissonance, but I won't join you there.

Could be the same word in Greek but not the same context.

In Jude; "build yourselves" (Many in an assembly)
In 1 Cor 14; "the one who speaks.." (one person/individual)
Not the same.

And i'm not arguing from a language point of view, i'm arguing from a greater context- If Paul has built his case on the basis of Loving being about others, then the 'self' being spoken of in 1 Cor 14 is definitely wrong, otherwise Paul would be contradicting himself.

 

[Dino246]

Could be the same word in Greek but not the same context.

In Jude; "build yourselves" (Many in an assembly)
In 1 Cor 14; "the one who speaks.." (one person/individual)
Not the same.

What's the difference when the action is the same (praying in the Spirit)? A bunch of people edifying themselves surely must be a horror if one person doing so is bad.

And i'm not arguing from a language point of view, i'm arguing from a greater context- If Paul has built his case on the basis of Loving being about others, then the 'self' being spoken of in 1 Cor 14 is definitely wrong, otherwise Paul would be contradicting himself.

... or just focusing on one particular facet without reference to the previous chapters.

Tell me something: if "edify" is bad when applied to the individual, why is it not bad when applied to the church? Nothing else suggests a negative connotation.

Edify is always positive when used in Scripture. Imposing a 21st-century English idiomatic nuance of meaning on a 1st-century Greek document is anachronistic at best and ridiculous at worst.

 

[Noose]

the context of serpents and scorpions can also me flase teaching

you do not understand the Greek word for Greater in context to the very words of Jesus. Does salvation start from English LOL . Your point is what?

Nobody needs to understand Greek to get what the scripture is saying. It is not a point at all.
Jesus said "when the spirit of truth comes, you will get understanding...", learning Greek has absolutely nothing to do with understanding anything.

 

[CS1]

Nobody needs to understand Greek to get what the scripture is saying. It is not a point at all.
Jesus said "when the spirit of truth comes, you will get understanding...", learning Greek has absolutely nothing to do with understanding anything.

I agree the gift of the Holy Spirit helps us but of course for you that has ceased. So you rely on your human intellect while throwing out the very word of God you do not agree with.

it is unlearned comments like what you said here:

"Nobody needs to understand Greek to get what the scripture is saying."

Then you have the audacity to attack pentecostal about being unbiblical.

FYI the Biblical you read now was translated from Hebrew Greek and Aramaic writings. In you over prideful-self-gratifying understanding, YOU NEED THE GREEK more than you even KNOW.

 

[Noose]

What's the difference when the action is the same (praying in the Spirit)? A bunch of people edifying themselves surely must be a horror if one person doing so is bad.

Spirit is something else, it has nothing to do with movement of any muscle. Tongues is something else too, praying in tongues is not praying in spirit.

... or just focusing on one particular facet without reference to the previous chapters.

Tell me something: if "edify" is bad when applied to the individual, why is it not bad when applied to the church? Nothing else suggests a negative connotation.

Edify is always positive when used in Scripture. Imposing a 21st-century English idiomatic nuance of meaning on a 1st-century Greek document is anachronistic at best and ridiculous at worst.

'Edify' is not bad, 'self' is bad in that context.

 

[Noose]

I agree the gift of the Holy Spirit helps us but of course for you that has ceased. So you rely on your human intellect while throwing out the very word of God you do not agree with.

Nope. It is not the gifts of the Holy spirit that is helping us, those ceased long ago, it is the Holy spirit Himself who helps us. He gives all the understanding needed and not just distributing to some individuals.

Jer 31:
33“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the LORD.
I will put My law in their minds
and inscribe it on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
and they will be My people.

34No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother,
saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD.
For I will forgive their iniquities
and will remember their sins no more.”

Doesn't sound like gfits being distributed any more.

it is unlearned comments like what you said here:

"Nobody needs to understand Greek to get what the scripture is saying."

Then you have the audacity to attack pentecostal about being unbiblical.

FYI the Biblical you read now was translated from Hebrew Greek and Aramaic writings. In you over prideful-self-gratifying understanding, YOU NEED THE GREEK more than you even KNOW.

My comments are just fine.
Again, no one needs to learn Greek to understand anything otherwise we should be having a command in the bible itself; "thou shall learn Greek.."

 

[CS1]

Nope. It is not the gifts of the Holy spirit that is helping us, those ceased long ago, it is the Holy spirit Himself who helps us. He gives all the understanding needed and not just distributing to some individuals.

Jer 31:
33“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the LORD.
I will put My law in their minds
and inscribe it on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
and they will be My people.

34No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother,
saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD.
For I will forgive their iniquities
and will remember their sins no more.”

Doesn't sound like gfits being distributed any more.





My comments are just fine.
Again, no one needs to learn Greek to understand anything otherwise we should be having a command in the bible itself; "thou shall learn Greek.."

smh buffoon