Not By Works

[safswan]

For the newspaper reporter above.....there is no contradiction between JAMES and PAUL when context is taken into account and they DO NOT TEACH THE SAME THING as they COVER DIFFERENT contexts.....BOILED DOWN........

Paul Justified before God by faith NO works attached
James Above faith seen by men based upon works

NEITHER teach that works justifies a man before GOD......end of story.

When all of Paul's writings are considered and James is understood properly then they are both teaching the same thing.There is no need for anyone to be justified before men and men are not the ones who save.Hence James is clear.Can faith alone save?All who say otherwise contradict James.Was Abraham's faith, "mere" or not, "saving faith" ?Why then did he have to be justified by works as James says:

"...can faith save him?"(James 2:14)

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"(James 2:21)

Paul says it this way:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."(Romans 2:12,13)

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"(Romans 6:1,2)

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"(Romans 6:15,16)

"For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."(Romans 6:21-23)

Read all of Paul and stop using the scriptures as the devil did with Jesus.

 

[safswan]

His question was clear, what does if profit a man if he claimed to have faith

He did not say the person ever had faith.

Me, i will take james and paul in agreement, not in contradiction, you do what you wish,

And his question was even clearer:

"...can faith save him?"

Here he is referring to real faith.

And are you saying Abraham's faith was only a claim?Why use Abraham as the example if this was a mere profession of faith being discussed?Why did he have to be justified by works?

 

[Word_Swordsman]

To believe and follow, then disbelieve and betray, is to follow the path of Judas and the fallen angels into perdition. Judas' end is eternally negatively famous. How absurd to hope for God to honor a deserter! The preaching of John Baptist, Jesus, and His disciples was anchored in trusting His gospel to each our end. That is the Christian lifestyle.

Rewards from Jesus at His next coming are for commending our righteous works that will not be consumed in His holy fire, which at that judgment of Jesus will reveal what is known now of children of God, and not known by men yet as approved by the Father. Meanwhile we ought not speculate the matter, but tend to righteous works.

 

[safswan]

He was saved in chapter 15, god knew he would do it, because he inew his faith was real.

God is omniscient, i inow thats hard for uou to understand, but its truel

Wow!!How do you even have any clue about what I understand?And you haven't answered the question.But then I don't expect you to.

 

[UnderGrace]

And his question was even clearer:

"...can faith save him?"

Here he is referring to real faith.

And are you saying Abraham's faith was only a claim?Why use Abraham as the example if this was a mere profession of faith being discussed?Why did he have to be justified by works?

He is referring to real faith. Faith cannot be false, if it was false it could not be faith as defined by scripture.

 

[safswan]

Hi safswan, the "dual nature of the justification process" ?, when the gavel falls you are pronounce either innocent or guilty, and the title of your post is, "Justification"

The only thing that is obvious is your misunderstanding of "salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ." It is an alarming thing to trifle with the bible and red flags should be seen by everyone.

I contend that it is you who are misunderstanding the concept.It is a common misunderstanding so don't feel too bad.Take some time and carefully read the study again and while you do,think of the thief on the cross and compare with the woman caught in adultery.With the help of the Holy Spirit the truth will become clear.

 

[dcontroversal]

When all of Paul's writings are considered and James is understood properly then they are both teaching the same thing.There is no need for anyone to be justified before men and men are not the ones who save.Hence James is clear.Can faith alone save?All who say otherwise contradict James.Was Abraham's faith, "mere" or not, "saving faith" ?Why then did he have to be justified by works as James says:

"...can faith save him?"(James 2:14)

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"(James 2:21)

Paul says it this way:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."(Romans 2:12,13)

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"(Romans 6:1,2)

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"(Romans 6:15,16)

"For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."(Romans 6:21-23)

Read all of Paul and stop using the scriptures as the devil did with Jesus.

No they are not teaching the same thing...two different sides of the coin.......and your last line is idiotic

 

[dcontroversal]

Wow!!How do you even have any clue about what I understand?And you haven't answered the question.But then I don't expect you to.

We can tell by your false stance and rejection of the truth.......

 

[safswan]

There is no dual action of justification....that is one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard....One is either declared righteous or NOT......justification is a legal term.....one who has been justified BY FAITH has been declared LEGALLY INNOCENT because the RIGHTEOUSNESS of CHRIST has been IMPUTED to their account by faith.............the things people come up with..........!!!

Read all of what Paul writes and not just a portion.Also read what is written by others and avoid misquoting.The statement was not "dual action", but "dual nature". The fact is,after being declared righteous,one is not expected to continue in sin.Do you teach that one who does will still be saved?Paul teaches no such thing.(Romans 6:1,2;12:1,2;I Corinthians 6:9-11)

 

[dcontroversal]

To believe and follow, then disbelieve and betray, is to follow the path of Judas and the fallen angels into perdition. Judas' end is eternally negatively famous. How absurd to hope for God to honor a deserter! The preaching of John Baptist, Jesus, and His disciples was anchored in trusting His gospel to each our end. That is the Christian lifestyle.

Rewards from Jesus at His next coming are for commending our righteous works that will not be consumed in His holy fire, which at that judgment of Jesus will reveal what is known now of children of God, and not known by men yet as approved by the Father. Meanwhile we ought not speculate the matter, but tend to righteous works.

Judas was never saved and then lost it...........

 

[safswan]

If you think Paul and James contradict each other, I GUARANTEE YOU MADE AN ERROR IN YOUR INTERPRETATION of ONE or BOTH Verses.

Where have you seen me say any such thing?

 

[dcontroversal]

Read all of what Paul writes and not just a portion.Also read what is written by others and avoid misquoting.The statement was not "dual action", but "dual nature". The fact is,after being declared righteous,one is not expected to continue in sin.Do you teach that one who does will still be saved?Paul teaches no such thing.(Romans 6:1,2;12:1,2;I Corinthians 6:9-11)

I do read all of Paul and there is no such thing as dual nature of justification...that is a figment of your overactive imagination.......one is either JUSTIFIED or they are NOT....end of story

 

[Guojing]

To me, its most interesting to see that, even after Martin Luther, this debate about James vs Paul remains strong.

I guess if the Book of James was placed immediately after the 4 Gospels but before Paul's letters to the Gentile churches, this debate may not last as long as this. After all, the Book of James was the earliest NT letter written, even before the Jerusalem Council event in Acts 15.

Everyone of us would be clearer that James was writing to the 12 tribes of Israel, and Gentile Christians like us would probably be less obsessed in trying to fit James into Paul.

 

[safswan]

Hahahahhahah I see the deceived worker for thinks he has his eyes open............look up the word MANY.............

MANY will come before JESUS peddling the same garbage a few on this thread post.....they claim him as LORD and believe they have helped earn their way in by works and obedience......

Not happening.........Depart from me ye workers of iniquity <-----those who blend works plus faith to gain or keep salvation......

It is clear you do not understand the meaning of the word iniquity.Let me help you.

Iniquity - anomia

Thayer Definition:
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Strongs Definition
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness:


Someone guilty of iniquity could not have been obedient.Look at the context of the passage:

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit."(Matthew 7:15-17)


Speaks to false prophets who may proclaim the name of the Lord but are practicing evil.


"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"(Matthew 7:22)

Notice the works performed,refer to ministering activities not works of righteousness.


"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."(Matthew 7:24-27)


Jesus goes on to stress the importance of obedience which was missing from those who were rejected.

Hence,to claim these persons were obedient and for this reason they believed they were saved is contrary to what the passage says.It is those who minister mightily for the Lord but who have committed wickedness,unrighteousness,illegality(iniquity)who are rejected.Many because they are able to minister powerfully,believe God is overlooking their sinful lifestyles and it is they who will be surprised when rejected.Paul was aware of this possibility:

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."(I Corinthians 9:27)

 

[stillness]

Yep, so I see you lean more towards OSAS right? You cannot lose that gift after you receive it when you believe.

Its a little more than eternal security, but that we will end up where we desire to be, and that could be dangerous as you understand that "Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." I'm of the impression that many budists who have helped the least of Christ's disciples enter in before the self righteous, and as Jesus said, the men of Nineva will rise in the day of Judgment in a better place that many in Israel as Jesus knew they would have believed, Just like Nineva did... but that there are few that obtain a crown of Life among Christians, aware I don't have one: I'm not a saint who has learned obedience through suffering but having entered the Way like many others, "many are called but few are chosen." in short 3 years ago praying for direction, received a calling, the Lord told me: Do the work of an evangelist, that surprized me, the rest did not surprise me, pondering this He said: Fear not I am with you, and: Proclaim deliverance, then: Pray for the anointing. I understand that to have this anointing and to finish our Journey reaching people for the Lord touching them with the anointing, is the crown of Life, I'm not referring to the initial receiving the Holy Spirit but the double portion mentioned in acts 4 where these already had the Holy Spirit and prayed for Boldness to face persecution. I would know if I had received it. Just as Paul knew He had it: towards the end of His Life. "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, from now on there is kept for me a crown of Life, and not for me only but for all those who Love His appearing." Paul was not offended to suffer and fulfil what was left behind of the suffering of Jesus. To Love His appearing is not to be offended in suffering to cease from sin. But much like the thief on the cross who willingly chose not to be offended and believe Jesus and trust to follow Him. As dcontroversial commented it was no accomplishment of obedience and we have to agree, the Way of the Lord is the easy yoke, the other thief had to suffer much more so, as He did with unresolved anger without Faith in God and hell following, You may have read the post earlier today. So in short I believe the Kingdom of God is much much bigger than our understanding and that we are safe in Him. There are many accounts of people who have tasted hell and cried to the Lord and were sent back to testify, we know Jesus has the keys of death and hell, He told us...

 

[lightbearer]

And his question was even clearer:

"...can faith save him?"

Here he is referring to real faith.

And are you saying Abraham's faith was only a claim?Why use Abraham as the example if this was a mere profession of faith being discussed?Why did he have to be justified by works?

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
(1Jn 3:7 KJV)

The clause "even as he is righteous" is a direct comparison to Jesus Christ. How was He righteous? He did righteousness.

Jesus testified, "There is none good but GOD." (Mark 10:18)

And again He saith, "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
(Joh 14:10 KJV)

So how was Jesus righteous?
By GOD's indwelling Spirit He performed righteousness.

How are we righteous?
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
(1Jn 3:7 KJV)

For It is God that worketh in you both to will and do HIS good pleasure. (Phil 2:13)

 

[lightbearer]

Not.... He will save

Believers (the justified, regenerated) are eternally saved from the moment they are born again.

Who is the Judge?
Do We Judge ourselves?

Not sure what you are asking.....but God gives the gift of salvation to those who have repented (have had a change of mind away from dead works to Christ)

Who is the Judge that we are born again? That we are justified and regenerated. That we have repented.

GOD or us?

 

[lightbearer]

And his question was even clearer:

"...can faith save him?"

Here he is referring to real faith.

And are you saying Abraham's faith was only a claim?Why use Abraham as the example if this was a mere profession of faith being discussed?Why did he have to be justified by works?

Amen!

Real Faith comes from GOD through Christ.

It is GOD that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure. For we are dead nevertheless we live. Yet not us but Christ liveth in us. And the LIFE we now live in the flesh we live by the FAITH of Christ. For we have put on Christ. (Gal 2:20,3:22)


But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; For Christ (the word in the heart and mouth) is the end of the law (on tables of Stone and parchment) for righteousness to every one that believeth. .
(Rom 10:4-8 KJV)

 

[mailmandan]

Was Abraham's faith, "mere" or not, "saving faith" ? Why then did he have to be justified by works as James says:

"...can faith save him?"(James 2:14)

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"(James 2:21)

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. James' concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

 

[Guojing]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith..

Do you think the thief on the cross was saved then?