Yes we can only keep them by the perfect law (the written law and the law of faith working together as one)
Has the law been put aside? If so, when?
- Thread starter Sketch
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yes we can only keep them by the perfect law (the written law and the law of faith working together as one)
That is not the ten commandments though...many sdas keep going on about just the ten commandments. Not the 613 ones. Because they dont actually keep kosher and do all the rituals either like circumcision.
Also when this was causing division between jew and gentile believers, God showed Peter in a vision that he was allowed to eat all animals and not call things unclean.
I posted this in a different thread, but I think it applies here just as well:
For believers, Christ is the end of the Law.
"For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to every one that believes." (Romans 10:4)
"By abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace." (Ephesians 2:15)
Believers are not under the Law.
"But if you are led of the Spirit, you are not under the Law." (Galatians 5:18)
"I myself (Paul) am not under the Law." (1 Corinthians 9:20)
"But before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, being locked up until faith should be revealed. Therefore the Law was put in charge to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the Law." (Galatians 3:23-25)
The Law isn't for believers.
"Knowing this, that the Law is not made for a righteous man.." (1 timothy 1:9)
"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the Law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14)
"But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that which we were bound, in order for us to serve in newness of the Spirit, and not in oldness of the written code." (Romans 7:6)
For believers, the Law is a curse.
"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, Everyone who does not do everything written in the book of the law is cursed. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. " (Galatians 3:10, 13)
Those who add Law observance to Christianity are fools.
"This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:2-3)
For believers, the Law was erased and nailed to the cross.
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." (Colossians 2:14)
Believers have died to the Law.
"Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God." (Romans 7:4)
Believers are not to go back to the Law.
"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery (The Law)". - Romans 5:1
For believers, Christ is the end of the Law.
"For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to every one that believes." (Romans 10:4)
"By abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace." (Ephesians 2:15)
Believers are not under the Law.
"But if you are led of the Spirit, you are not under the Law." (Galatians 5:18)
"I myself (Paul) am not under the Law." (1 Corinthians 9:20)
"But before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, being locked up until faith should be revealed. Therefore the Law was put in charge to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the Law." (Galatians 3:23-25)
The Law isn't for believers.
"Knowing this, that the Law is not made for a righteous man.." (1 timothy 1:9)
"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the Law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14)
"But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that which we were bound, in order for us to serve in newness of the Spirit, and not in oldness of the written code." (Romans 7:6)
For believers, the Law is a curse.
"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, Everyone who does not do everything written in the book of the law is cursed. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. " (Galatians 3:10, 13)
Those who add Law observance to Christianity are fools.
"This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:2-3)
For believers, the Law was erased and nailed to the cross.
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." (Colossians 2:14)
Believers have died to the Law.
"Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God." (Romans 7:4)
Believers are not to go back to the Law.
"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery (The Law)". - Romans 5:1
It seems Jesus disagrees with you.
Matthew 22
NIV
34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Philippians 2:12-15 (NKJV) 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure. 14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
Paul talks about working out your salvation, how does one do this? By daily obedience to Yahshua’s example on how to live which lies within the two greatest commandments “Love God with all your heart mind and soul, and the second is like it , love your neighbor as yourself.”
Matthew 22:35-40 (NKJV) 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked [Him a question,] testing Him, and saying, 36 "Teacher, which [is] the great commandment in the law?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is [the] first and great commandment. 39 "And [the] second [is] like it : You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
God tells us repeatedly throughout the whole Bible, the way we show we love Him is by keeping His statues. So therein we are daily obedient and show God how we love Him by waking out his Torah (statutes) daily. The whole of Torah is beautiful and shows us how to love God as well as Love our neighbor according to how God says we should. Yahshua came and gave us the spiritual meaning to the written law. Therefore the Spirit and Letter of the Law overlap and we are to follow them both. Paul shows us in Phillipians that our salvation isn’t a “one and done” scenario, but rather to daily sanctify ourselves so we remain pure after we have come into Messiah, James also follows this premise in this scripture:
James 2:20-24 (NKJV) 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Paul talks about working out your salvation, how does one do this? By daily obedience to Yahshua’s example on how to live which lies within the two greatest commandments “Love God with all your heart mind and soul, and the second is like it , love your neighbor as yourself.”
Matthew 22:35-40 (NKJV) 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked [Him a question,] testing Him, and saying, 36 "Teacher, which [is] the great commandment in the law?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is [the] first and great commandment. 39 "And [the] second [is] like it : You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
God tells us repeatedly throughout the whole Bible, the way we show we love Him is by keeping His statues. So therein we are daily obedient and show God how we love Him by waking out his Torah (statutes) daily. The whole of Torah is beautiful and shows us how to love God as well as Love our neighbor according to how God says we should. Yahshua came and gave us the spiritual meaning to the written law. Therefore the Spirit and Letter of the Law overlap and we are to follow them both. Paul shows us in Phillipians that our salvation isn’t a “one and done” scenario, but rather to daily sanctify ourselves so we remain pure after we have come into Messiah, James also follows this premise in this scripture:
James 2:20-24 (NKJV) 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Right, this is not all of the Ten Commandments, I just wanted to share in this specific reference that God does want us to love our neighbor.
2 Ten commandment references:
Exodus 20
Deuteronomy 5
I do want to mention that a lot of the 613 pertain to the levitical priests for to temple and the future temple as well. But all of the laws do still pertain to us and the ones we are more than able to keep we should if we want to truly love God with all our heart and soul and mind. For He is the one who gave us His Beloved Son, because He loves us. When Jesus comes back to be king over us all under God, His chosen people, Israel, that these will still be in affect until earth passes away (Matthew 5:17-20). God gave these to us to practice and to keep to stay pure before Him. God and Jesus will not and Do not go back on His own Word.
In Acts 10: 9-16 God is talking to Peter about meeting with Cornelius. If you continue to keep reading in verse 28 even Cornelius himself wonders and makes mention of how it is unlawful/ unclean to mingle with those who are not of the Law, or other nation not of God’s. The Jews back then and even now have their own set of laws that they follow alongside the Torah that have laws stated against such things,
I accidentally sent that too soon.
Let me backtrack a little. If you read all Acts 10 or at least 10:9-48 especially verses 9-33 it is clarified that he was not talking about unclean food.
And in verse 28 Peter, not Cornelius speaks concerning this matter.
Jesus likes to talk in parables and when he speaks in visions He gives them understanding to follow as Jesus did in verse 17-23. Check it out!
Jesus would not speak against His father or else He would not be pure without sin. For God Himself and Jesus says too that the Law is from everlasting to everlasting. Including eating clean.
Here is Paul talking about the law of sin in him in combat with his desire to follow the law. We all have this problem.
Romans 7 NIV
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!S o then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 7 NIV
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!S o then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
If the Law regarding foods is "everlasting to everlasting", why does Paul emphasize that the law was given 430 years after Abraham?If you read all Acts 10 or at least 10:9-48 especially verses 9-33 it is clarified that he was not talking about unclean food.
And in verse 28 Peter, not Cornelius speaks concerning this matter.
Jesus likes to talk in parables and when he speaks in visions He gives them understanding to follow as Jesus did in verse 17-23. Check it out!
Jesus would not speak against His father or else He would not be pure without sin. For God Himself and Jesus says too that the Law is from everlasting to everlasting. Including eating clean.
Galatians 3:17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
And why does it contradict what was given to Noah after the flood?
Genesis 9:3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
There are evidences that Torah existed prior to mount Sinai, for example you bring up Noah, when God commanded him to take animals in the ark, He made a distinction to Noah on clean and unclean animals. Why would there be a distinction if it did not exist? And to the point of “everything has been given as food” Genesis 9:3 in the original language actually states every living thing is eating green, (inter linear and strongs definition show the literal meaning is much different than how they translated into English) which if you think about it makes a lot more sense seeing as how the previous verse God States that all creatures would have fear of Noah, and furthermore that these animals had to refill the Earth. So having them eat green and herbs instead of each other is the more sensible action... just like they behaved in the Garden of Eden prior to the fall of man. So that verse is not stating they were all to be food to Noah but rather that they were to eat green like the herbs which God gave for food. So that they could refill the Earth as Noah and his sons.
Also to speak on Galatians chapter 3... Israel sojourned in Egypt 430 years after Jacob had come to be reunited with Joseph and escape the famine. Which is clearly much longer than 430 years after God gave his promise to Abraham, so there is either bad math on Paul’s part, or when they translated to English they missed something, surely he being an educated Jew would know that there was a much bigger gap between Abraham and the children of Israel leaving Egypt. But alas it matters not, what does matter is what God says, and has laid as a foundation from the beginning which is His Word, and according to John, the Word was Yahshua (Jesus), which has a very significant meaning.
No. This is nowhere close to what is being inferred by Paul.
How does a person work out their Salvation with fear and trembling? Well go to the verse in the OT that has the phrase fear and trembling in it for starters. See what that says.
Jeremiah 33:9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.
Kind of a strange way to put it I've always thought. Why would anyone fear and tremble for all the goodness and prosperity God gives His People?
Because when a person works out their Salvation with fear and trembling they are discovering all the goodness that God has FREELY given them.
Which is that Righteousness before God has been imputed to His People, not by their work at the law, but by faith in Christ.
Wisdom has been given to His People, not by their work at the law, but by faith in Christ.
Obedience has been given to His People, not by their work at the law, but by faith in Christ.
Salvation has been given to His People, not by their work at the law, but by faith in Christ.
Joy has been given to His People, not by their work at the law, but by faith in Christ.
Peace has been given to His People, not by their work at the law, but by faith in Christ.
If you find out all this is given by God through faith in Christ wouldn't it be MORE beneficial to find out all you could about faith in Christ rather than your work at the law?
Don't you think that the Righteousness a person receives from God would be better than the righteousness they could earn from working at the law?
If you could gain Righteousness from God you would gladly throw away all of your own righteousness to receive it, wouldn't you?
This would probably be a better title for this thread;
Can we add our righteousness from working at the law to the Righteousness that God gives us?
As if adding black muck to a white wedding gown could be qualified as "adding" to it.
You need to look at all scripture.
Proverbs 9 NIV
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
11 For through wisdom your days will be many,
and years will be added to your life.
12 If you are wise, your wisdom will reward you;
if you are a mocker, you alone will suffer.
You must not understand what those scriptures even say.
You think they contradict my post?
The verse I posted contradicts your rejection of fear of God. When a person realizes there is a God they need to fear him. That fear should push them towards finding how to be reconciled to him. Thus finding about Jesus and the grace through faith in Jesus that gives salvation. Without the fear of God at judgement time they would ignore God. That is how atheists respond!
Do you even know what the law states? I think not. There are 613 rules in the law. There are the dos and don'ts, then in those two categories there are several other divisions, all, male, female, in Israel, etc. Here they are. Read them.
In addition to the 10 commandments there are the laws scattered through the Torah.
List of the 613 laws in the Torah
http://www.gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html
Discussion about the 613 laws in the Torah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments
Deuteronomy 28
Speaks of the blessings and curses of keeping and Not keeping the Law, Gods Law, which is is from the foundation of His people. It is not just a “law” it is a mentality! It is in a way people think that even Paul himself did not have. The law is not a burden, nor should we be a “slave to it” it should be a Joy!! Because God Himself gave it to us. Just has he made His Son from the beginning of time! Don’t you know? Jesus is prophesied throughout the whole Bible. He is written in the stars in the sky and as well as His Torah!
Genesis 49:10 the scepter/ Shiloh = Yeshua
Numbers 24:17 the Star shall come out of Jacob= Yeshua
Isaiah 11:1 the reign of Jesses offspring = Yeshua
Psalms 2
1 ¶ Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us."
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 "Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion."
7 "I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall breakfn them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.' "
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,fn lest Hefn be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
Tell me now how you should not fear for your life. You can preach Paul’s words all day, whose words can easily become muddled and misunderstood, but Yeshua and Yahweh Himself lay it down simply for you. Black and White. There is no question. To discard something brought by the hand of God Himself is the same as His Son -to me. I think I have said I need to say now. I pray God blesses you with the Fear of Him and that in His pleasure He opens your eyes as He sees fit. Go in Peace.
Speaks of the blessings and curses of keeping and Not keeping the Law, Gods Law, which is is from the foundation of His people. It is not just a “law” it is a mentality! It is in a way people think that even Paul himself did not have. The law is not a burden, nor should we be a “slave to it” it should be a Joy!! Because God Himself gave it to us. Just has he made His Son from the beginning of time! Don’t you know? Jesus is prophesied throughout the whole Bible. He is written in the stars in the sky and as well as His Torah!
Genesis 49:10 the scepter/ Shiloh = Yeshua
Numbers 24:17 the Star shall come out of Jacob= Yeshua
Isaiah 11:1 the reign of Jesses offspring = Yeshua
Psalms 2
1 ¶ Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us."
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 "Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion."
7 "I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall breakfn them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.' "
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,fn lest Hefn be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
Tell me now how you should not fear for your life. You can preach Paul’s words all day, whose words can easily become muddled and misunderstood, but Yeshua and Yahweh Himself lay it down simply for you. Black and White. There is no question. To discard something brought by the hand of God Himself is the same as His Son -to me. I think I have said I need to say now. I pray God blesses you with the Fear of Him and that in His pleasure He opens your eyes as He sees fit. Go in Peace.
First, I don't see the relevance of your post to mine.
Second, I am well aware of what the Law states.
Third, I don't care for your condescending attitude.
Nothing in my post suggests a rejection of the fear of God.
There is no "need" to fear God. It is automatic.
You don't have to tell a person they need to be afraid of the Lion. Once they are alone with the Lion it is automatic.
I think atheists respond with no understanding. They have no belief in God. But they will have fear. It will be too late, but they will have it.
A quote from you. You are asserting that God changed the law. This from the immutable God?
And why does it contradict what was given to Noah after the flood?
Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
A change of law is not a change in the immutable God.
As for Noah, Genesis 9:3 says, "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you", but God restricted the diet of the Israelites to only certain animals and birds.