Has the law been put aside? If so, when?

Lanolin · Dec 31, 2018

Another thing is with the fruits of the holy spirit, love peace, joy, kindness etc...against which there is no law.

Notice Jesus gave two, the first love the Lord your God with all your heart...and then he gave the second ANOTHER commandment which wasnt actually specifcally one of the TEN. To Love your neighbour as you love God. And those two fulfill all the others. The second was actually a brand new commandment.

Dino246 · Dec 31, 2018

Blik said:

How do you define "sin"?

If you define "sin" as "failure to do anything and everything prescribed in the Law as given to Moses" then it is absolutely impossible not to sin. We cannot follow the Law completely. James makes clear that failure to follow the Law completely in any aspect is equivalent to breaking the entire Law.

You continually equate "not following the Law" with "a license to sin". That is a straw man argument and is not valid.

Perhaps if you correctly understood the position of those with whom you disagree, this discussion would have greater value.

Endoscopy · Dec 31, 2018

Lanolin said:

Here is Jesus on the law!!

Matthew 5:17 and 18
17 Do not think that I have come to do away with or [ab]undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.
18 For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished.

Endoscopy · Dec 31, 2018

Here is the law.

In addition to the 10 commandments there are the laws scattered through the Torah. Maimonides counted and documented them. No one has found any more.

The 613 laws of God.
https://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html

Discussion of the 613 laws of God
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

Blik · Jan 9, 2019

This is all such a silly argument. God created a wonderful world for us to live in, and God created physical and spiritual laws for it to operate only for good.

Man who loves God and thanks God for guidance to what produces good listens to law, those who hate law won't. So let the stupid people be stupid, they are determined on it. We know God and how God created the world to be and we try to live as those laws direct.

Endoscopy · Jan 9, 2019

Basic Christianity.
Jesus said the law is in place until the heavens and earth disappear.
Sin is transgression of the law.
We all sin.
The wages of sin is death.
Grace through faith in Jesus removes the penalty of of sin from us.
Grace is a free gift from God

Too many people think they have to earn salvation.
That is impossible!!

tanakh · Jan 12, 2019

The Law of Moses ended at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given to all who believed in Jesus and the New Covenant. Before that
the Holy Spirit was given only to those who God chose to lead the people such as Moses and the Prophets. At Pentecost the Prophecy
given by Jeremiah concerning the New Covenant was fulfilled and the Old Covenant became null and void because of the Death resurrection and ascension of Christ who fulfilled the whole of that which the Bible pointed to.

lightbearer · Jan 12, 2019

Grandpa said:

That is Right, Faith. What is this Faith in which Paul speaks?

We are crucified with Christ: nevertheless we live; yet not us, but Christ liveth in us: and the life which we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved us, and gave himself for us. Gal 2:20

The Faith OF the Son of GOD.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27

What does Paul through GOD mean when He states we are dead nevertheless we live by the Faith of Christ? What is this Faith? Not I but Christ's Faith. Romans chapter 10:6-8 explain this Faith as Paul through GOD paraphrases Deut 30:11-14 to open our understanding. He paraphrased Deut. to draw our attention to it so we would make the following connect.

The righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach ; For Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth) is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth. that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
(Rom 10:4-8; Deut 30:11-14)

To further this point we will go to Hebrews chapter eight where the writer through the Spirit quotes Jeremiah. The same thing is being stated just in different words.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws (Christ, the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: For Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth) is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth. That is, the word of faith, which we preach.
(Heb 8:10)

It is a NEW ministry. Not of Tables of Stone and of parchment; the Book of the Law. But of the fleshly Tables of the Heart; Faith through Christ and of Christ.

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. For Christ, the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness and the ministry to every one that believeth. that is, the word of faith, which we preach. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
(2Co 3:3-5)

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth): Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
(Deu 30:6; Col 2:10-12)

LORD I believe; thank you for helping my unbelief! For YOU have given us all things that pertain to Life and godliness through Jesus Christ. Including Faith

Endoscopy · Jan 12, 2019

tanakh said:

I see you ignore what Jesus said about the law.

Matthew 5 AMPC
17 Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.
18 For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished.
19 Whoever then breaks or does away with or relaxes one of the least [important] of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least [important] in the kingdom of heaven, but he who practices them and teaches others to do so shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In addition to the 10 commandments there are the laws scattered through the Torah.

List of the 613 laws in the Torah
http://www.gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html

Discussion about the 613 laws in the Torah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

Endoscopy · Jan 12, 2019

Sin by definition is breaking the law of God. Therefore when we admit we sin we are saying the law of God is in place like Jesus said. What he accomplished on the cross was to create the free gift of grace. It is by grace through faith in Jesus that penalty for our sins are removed from us. When those who say the law was done away with and admit we sin ignore that sin is breaking that law. If the law is done away with there is no sin. Therefore there is no need for salvation. It is the penalty that is removed from us not the law.

Blik · Jan 26, 2019

Dino246 said:

It seems to me that I understand your point of view but I knock on a stone wall when I speak against trashing God's rules. It is being done in the name of Paul's writings against obedience without the spirit of God. Paul makes it clear that he teaches only against wrong use of law, but these posters don't do that. By only quoting Paul's words as he gathers them for his final conclusion, it is using words to oppose God. Paul always, every time, told of his conclusion which was that God's law is Holy and good. You can obey the letter of the law, as Paul tells us, and not the law, but it is impossible to obey God's law and not obey the ten commandments for love is solidly embedded in what is holy.

The result is in our world. The result is preaching to have no discipline, no acts of God in our churches or lives. We have as many divorces, as many children with no Fathers, as many suicides as in the secular world, we are not set apart for God.

Please look at the results of this anti law teaching, and don't listen to this "Blik" but to God.

Dino246 · Jan 26, 2019

Blik said:

God gave the ten commandments to ancient Israel as part of the Law, which was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. We as believers in Christ know when we have sinned because the indwelling Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. We know to avoid certain actions because the Holy Spirit warns us to avoid them. We know that whatever is not of faith is sin because the word of God tells us. If you interpret that as a licence to sin, or think that I do, you're dead wrong.

Exactly what do you think Paul meant by, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" Do you interpret that as a call to strive for obedience to the ten commandments, or as a license to sin?

Do you understand what Paul meant when he quoted, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law, to perform them"? Do you see that "obey the ten commandments" actually contradicts Paul?

Blik said:

Fallacy: correlation does not mean causation.

Simcahh · Jan 26, 2019

I would like to say a few words concerning this topic. First let me say that I come from a point of view of peace and wanting to clarify what I feel and believe to be the fundamental foundation of living in God’s kingdom. Yahshua(Jesus’ name in His language) states He comes not to abolish/put aside the law or the prophets (Matt 5: 17-20 NKJ) but to fulfill. Meaning to make full, to complete and fulfill what the prophets prophesied about Him. Showing us as an example in human form that the law is not a burden, but is freeing in actuality. He is our living example of how to operate in God’s kingdom which is to come. The law is to be a sign to God and our Messiah that we are Theirs and belong to them.

Deut 6:8 NKJV —You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.... also

1 John 2:3-4 (NKJV) 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

There are several other references to this point. I firmly believe Yahshua is our sacrifice and covers our sins with His blood that He shed for us and for many. However, it does not excuse us from following God’s outline on how to live which is found in the writings of Moses and followed through with the Prophets, and made as a living example in Yahshua.
In the end times when people come to Him saying, Master, did we not do these things in your name and He says back away from Me, I knew you not. He is saying this because He does not see the sign of following God’s law and rules in their lives.
Matthew 7:22-24 (NKJV) 22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' 24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:

In summary, Yahshua (Jesus) is our perfect sacrifice and made the law perfect and an example for us how to live our lives. He is our atonement for sin.

1 John 4:9-10 (NKJV) 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

We are to live according to the law so that we do not practice sin, but yet live a life seeking to be as righteous as possible and so we can be recognized as His so that in that day He welcomes us in vs saying He never knew us. For how do we know what sin is without having the law? Why does His sacrifice make us exempt to the law? Why do His apostles and disciples say that the way He knows us is by following the commandments (1 John 2:3-5)? I think if we are transformed and made into a new creation we would strive to live how He lived, and follow His example and do all that He and our Father have commanded and live according to the Spirit. Furthermore if the Spirit is of God, why then would the Spirit go against God’s word and do away with the everlasting commandments he decreed? Brethren I humbly state that the Spirit would not go against God. God is unchanging and says that the commandments given to His people are to be carried out through all generations and this is backed up by Yahshua saying that not one jot would be removed until Heaven and Earth pass away. They are not a burden, but a gift.

Blik · Jan 27, 2019

Dino246 said:

God gave the ten commandments to ancient Israel as part of the Law, which was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. We as believers in Christ know when we have sinned because the indwelling Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. We know to avoid certain actions because the Holy Spirit warns us to avoid them. We know that whatever is not of faith is sin because the word of God tells us. If you interpret that as a licence to sin, or think that I do, you're dead wrong.

Exactly what do you think Paul meant by, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" Do you interpret that as a call to strive for obedience to the ten commandments, or as a license to sin?

Do you understand what Paul meant when he quoted, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law, to perform them"? Do you see that "obey the ten commandments" actually contradicts Paul?

Fallacy: correlation does not mean causation.

If this a summation of your post: The written law is all wrong, Paul spoke against any obedience to it, it is not of God. And I disagree with these ideas.

Endoscopy · Jan 27, 2019

Dino246 said:

Quite literally sin is the transgression of the law. Period.

Matthew 5 AMPC
17 Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.
18 For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished.
19 Whoever then breaks or does away with or relaxes one of the least [important] of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least [important] in the kingdom of heaven, but he who practices them and teaches others to do so shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In addition to the 10 commandments there are the laws scattered through the Torah. No one can keep these laws.

List of the 613 laws in the Torah
http://www.gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html

Discussion about the 613 laws in the Torah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

Dino246 · Jan 27, 2019

Blik said:

Wow... I can’t even accuse you of creating a straw man. Your summary is just wrong.

Lanolin · Jan 27, 2019

I think BLIK just wants to keep following the ten commandments. Well she can if she wants to.
But she would be missing out on what Jesus has done. And the new commandment He gave that he wrote on our hearts.

In the ten commandments it does not even mention 'love God' or 'love thy neighbour'

The rich young ruler boasted of keeping all the commandments but still asked what must I do to receive eternal life. Well didnt Jesus tell him to sell all he had, give to the poor and to follow Him? Where is that in the ten commandments, it just says do not covet...but the rich young ruler probably was not even coveting anyone elses property since he already had so much.

One can follow all the commandments and yet still miss out on eternal life because when following the letter of the law most people totally miss the spirit of the law. And there are all these thing to say what you can and cant do...but there is no law against love. And if we are a people of God, we love in so many different ways that there is no book of laws that can say all the ways to love ones neighbour.

Do the ten commandments say to heal the sick? No. Do they say to tell others about Jesus? Nope. Do they say be kind? Nope.

garee · Jan 27, 2019

Blik said:

A good understanding as to how "faith works" can go a long way. I would think all the way to the end of the matter. Philippians 1:6

The written law "scripture" kills. It shows a sin eternal debt must be made . We are born with no faith by which we could please God.

Therefore we need the kind of faith by which could hear and therefore believe God. Without it working in us to both will and do His good pleasure as a imputed righteousness, there no way to please the author of it. Jesus is that way

The law of faith is in respect to Christ's work of faith or labor of Love ,called the "faith of Christ". Christ fulfilled the written law by becoming the object of sin bearing our sin . In that way the law is not put aside, but he fulfilled i . The written law will continue to do its work until the end of time.

His faith without His works or labor of love would be dead leaving us a eternal wage that must be satisfied. He exercised his great mercy by giving us the reward of his faithfulness called grace

I would say like love and marriage, or horse and carriage.... can't have one without the other .The work must be done or it dies.

The written law must be blended with the law of faith .together mutually working as one we have the perfect or complete law spoken of in Psalm 19:7

1 Peter 4:19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a "faithful Creator".

Simcahh · Jan 27, 2019

Psalms 19

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;
The judgments of the LORD are true andrighteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
Yea, than much fine gold;
Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them Your servant is warned,
And in keeping them there is great reward.
12 Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.
13 Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;
Let them not have dominion over me.
Then I shall be blameless,
And I shall be innocent of great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight,
O LORD, my strength and my Redeemer.

Simcahh · Jan 27, 2019

Lanolin said:

Leviticus 19:18
11 'You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another. 12 'And you shall not swear by My name falsely, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.13 'You shall not cheat your neighbor, nor rob him. The wages of him who is hired shall not remain with you all night until morning. 14 'You shall not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling block before the blind, but shall fear your God: I am the LORD. 15 'You shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor. 16 'You shall not go about as a talebearer among your people; nor shall you take a stand against the life of your neighbor: I am the LORD. 17 'You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. 18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. 19 'You shall keep My statutes.

Has the law been put aside? If so, when?

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