Is the Jewish God and gentile God the same?

[Blik]

Well, I'm not planning on sacrificing any bullocks on the alter, throwing away my multifabric pants, giving up sausage with my breakfast, offering turtledoves for my newborn, or shaving off my goatee to be saved. Am I in trouble with God for these things?

If you read only for instructions for such as animal sacrifice that is now obsolete, or the 613 laws that are mostly obsolete with the temple replaced, and ignore what is said about the legalistic obedience and the spirit of the law then you certainly are missing most of scripture. With that mindset you are missing most of what God is teaching in both the OT and NT, so you simply have what you create in your own mind, with nothing to do with understanding the Lord as either testament teaches.

If you listened to the Lord as you read scripture you would find that everything, including what the Lord tells you about the obsolete animal sacrifice, teaches you something eternal about God. Christ does every single thing scripture tells us that animal sacrifice did, except Christ does it better, more completely, and His one death is complete for all sacrifice.

 

[Macabeus]

If you read only for instructions for such as animal sacrifice that is now obsolete, or the 613 laws that are mostly obsolete with the temple replaced, and ignore what is said about the legalistic obedience and the spirit of the law then you certainly are missing most of scripture. With that mindset you are missing most of what God is teaching in both the OT and NT, so you simply have what you create in your own mind, with nothing to do with understanding the Lord as either testament teaches.

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I agree with everything you just said. My point of contention was with you calling the Law an operations manual. If it is an operations manual, does that not mean that we are required to do everything contained therein?

If you listened to the Lord as you read scripture you would find that everything, including what the Lord tells you about the obsolete animal sacrifice, teaches you something eternal about God. Christ does every single thing scripture tells us that animal sacrifice did, except Christ does it better, more completely, and His one death is complete for all sacrifice

So then the codes of animal sacrifices are shadows and types of Christ, not an operations manual.

Did I not say that the Law points us to Christ. That is the same thing you are now saying, but in different words.

 

[Macabeus]

addendum- 1 Timothy 1:8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

 

[Hevosmies]

Answer:

Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

 

[Dino246]

I think you just read a bit of scripture here and there and never follow through with anything it says.

Taking potshots again? Which fruit of the Holy Spirit is that?

 

[Blik]

I agree with everything you just said. My point of contention was with you calling the Law an operations manual. If it is an operations manual, does that not mean that we are required to do everything contained therein?

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If we aren't required to do as God tells us there would be no need for Christ.

Paul knew people would come up with this idea when he explained that works did not lead to salvation Here are just a few of what Paul said about that idea:
Rom_3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom_6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

 

[Blik]

addendum- 1 Timothy 1:8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

Scripture tells us we all need Christ, we are all law breakers. So this scripture applies to all who are human.

 

[Dino246]

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Rom10:4

Your statement is incorrect.

While it's true that I did not quote it exactly as it is written in the KJV, I neither put quotes around it nor suggested that it was an accurate quotation. Rather, I paraphrased and accurately represented the gist of the verse.

 

[Grandpa]

I find no scripture that tells us God has ever given salvation for law obedience. In the long list of blessings promised us I have never found salvation listed.

OT speaks of grace that comes from faith, and usually they point out faith is demonstrated by righteous actions. The NT promotes grace apart from works, the OT doesn't speak of that, but I find no scripture in OT or NT that disagrees with what either testament teaches. It is James that tells us that our works show our faith.

If you find any scripture promising salvation for law obedience, please post it.

I have also found no scripture that takes back a covenant, telling how God relates to us. I find one saying that some things are obsolete, but never that God decides against a covenant. Also, please post the scripture if you find it.

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.

That's OT.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

That's NT. Looks like something changed.

Deuteronomy 11:27-28
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:

28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.


If you are blessed and Righteous before God by obedience to the 10 Commandments then you are saved. That's the whole point of Salvation.

To KNOW where your Blessing and Righteousness come from.


But, if you read carefully, you will see the OT scriptures say IF. IF you can do it.

So that IF still applies today. IF you can do it you will be blessed. IF you can do it you will be Righteous.

Christians who have tried ALREADY know that it is not possible. By their own work and by studying scripture. And by coming to Christ.

Its important to know in your heart that you need a Saviour. If you think you can be blessed and righteous by your own work and understanding then that is the understanding you are given. If you think you can be extra blessed and righteous by Salvation through Christ PLUS your own obedience to the law then that is the understanding you are given.

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Are you so foolish to think that you are extra blessed and righteous by Salvation through Christ PLUS your own obedience to the law?

 

[Blik]

If you are blessed and Righteous before God by obedience to the 10 Commandments then you are saved. That's the whole point of Salvation.

I have never found any scripture, OT or NT, that tells of salvation based on obedience to law. If you find it, please post it.

I find scripture that tells of grace, OT and NT, but salvation only through grace. According to scripture law obedience comes only through faith and love.

 

[Macabeus]

If we aren't required to do as God tells us there would be no need for Christ.

Paul knew people would come up with this idea when he explained that works did not lead to salvation Here are just a few of what Paul said about that idea:
Rom_3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom_6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

You don't seem to realize that I am not speaking of the moral law that is fulfilled by love, but that I am speaking of the ceremonial law.

The moral law is fulfilled by love. He who loves fulfills that law

The ceremonial law has already been fulfilled by Christ.

So when you say the Law is our operations manual, it might help if you were more specific. Because some think that we are under portions of the ceremonial law, which we are not.

Paul said that we are freed from and delivered from the law. That is what I said too. Paul did not contradict himself when he said we are free from and delivered from the law yet the law is established in us. And I am not contradicting myself either.

 

[gb9]

You don't seem to realize that I am not speaking of the moral law that is fulfilled by love, but that I am speaking of the ceremonial law.

The moral law is fulfilled by love. He who loves fulfills that law

The ceremonial law has already been fulfilled by Christ.

So when you say the Law is our operations manual, it might help if you were more specific. Because some think that we are under portions of the ceremonial law, which we are not.

Paul said that we are freed from and delivered from the law. That is what I said too. Paul did not contradict himself when he said we are free from and delivered from the law yet the law is established in us. And I am not contradicting myself either.

what people like bilk ignore is this- we are to fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law.

not keep the letter. the letter kills, the Sprit gives life.

as Christ followers, we are to be manifesting the fruits of the Sprit, against which there is no law,

of course, keeping the Sabbath is not listed in the fruits in the Sprit. that is why the judeaizers are so negative about it.

 

[Grandpa]

I have never found any scripture, OT or NT, that tells of salvation based on obedience to law. If you find it, please post it.

I find scripture that tells of grace, OT and NT, but salvation only through grace. According to scripture law obedience comes only through faith and love.

I don't recall an OT scripture that says people are saved by Grace. If you find it, please post it.

 

[Blik]

You don't seem to realize that I am not speaking of the moral law that is fulfilled by love, but that I am speaking of the ceremonial law.

The moral law is fulfilled by love. He who loves fulfills that law

The ceremonial law has already been fulfilled by Christ.

So when you say the Law is our operations manual, it might help if you were more specific. Because some think that we are under portions of the ceremonial law, which we are not.

Paul said that we are freed from and delivered from the law. That is what I said too. Paul did not contradict himself when he said we are free from and delivered from the law yet the law is established in us. And I am not contradicting myself either.

People get law truly mixed up. "Freed from the law"!!! So they toss out the 119th Psalm. Paul tells us that heaven forbid on that idea. Then they use the word "love". In the Greek meaning of that word it is an abstract word and has nothing to do with any actions. In Hebrew love can't stand alone with no actions. The ceremonies we were given were, as Paul said a schoolmaster, leading to obedience of a law. Take away the schoolmaster and we still need to be led to law obedience, we need to follow what God instilled in our heart if we listen.

In our church today, there is so little discipline or law obedience due to all this watering down that is done that you can't tell a Christian from an atheist, and often the atheist lives a more disciplined life than the Christian. As a result the church has lost all power to lead the world. As an example a marriage under God is very different from a civil marriage, but even there you can't tell a Godly marriage, and there is no difference in the divorce rate from Christian or civil marriage.

 

[Grandpa]

People get law truly mixed up. "Freed from the law"!!! So they toss out the 119th Psalm. Paul tells us that heaven forbid on that idea. Then they use the word "love". In the Greek meaning of that word it is an abstract word and has nothing to do with any actions. In Hebrew love can't stand alone with no actions. The ceremonies we were given were, as Paul said a schoolmaster, leading to obedience of a law. Take away the schoolmaster and we still need to be led to law obedience, we need to follow what God instilled in our heart if we listen.

In our church today, there is so little discipline or law obedience due to all this watering down that is done that you can't tell a Christian from an atheist, and often the atheist lives a more disciplined life than the Christian. As a result the church has lost all power to lead the world. As an example a marriage under God is very different from a civil marriage, but even there you can't tell a Godly marriage, and there is no difference in the divorce rate from Christian or civil marriage.

The law was given for one purpose.

Those that would rather worship law than worship God can't see it.

That one purpose was so that you would know that you need a Saviour. From Condemnation and Death.

Once you have come to The Saviour and received Salvation you know where your help is. You don't need a law to condemn you to death to know who your Saviour is. You don't need to continue in that condemnation and death in order to please God.

Condemnation and Death is not pleasing to God. But it seems to be the only way the stiff-necked people learn. And even then they still manage to resist the Holy Spirit. Why???

Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

 

[Macabeus]

Pe

People get law truly mixed up. "Freed from the law"!!! So they toss out the 119th Psalm. Paul tells us that heaven forbid on that idea. Then they use the word "love". In the Greek meaning of that word it is an abstract word and has nothing to do with any actions. In Hebrew love can't stand alone with no actions. The ceremonies we were given were, as Paul said a schoolmaster, leading to obedience of a law. Take away the schoolmaster and we still need to be led to law obedience, we need to follow what God instilled in our heart if we listen.

In our church today, there is so little discipline or law obedience due to all this watering down that is done that you can't tell a Christian from an atheist, and often the atheist lives a more disciplined life than the Christian. As a result the church has lost all power to lead the world. As an example a marriage under God is very different from a civil marriage, but even there you can't tell a Godly marriage, and there is no difference in the divorce rate from Christian or civil marriage.

I did not say dead or freed from the Law, Paul did

And you could not be more wrong about the greek word agape

Jesus said the Great commandment is to love God. Jesus said "this is my commandment that you love one another", Jesus said on love hangs all the Law and the prophets. John said that love is demonstrated by God giving His Son as a propitiation for our sins. John said love is demonstrated in Jesus laying down His life for us. James called love the royal law. Peter called love the bond of perfection. Paul said love abides forever. Love is in no way abstract, and it has everything to do with action

We are to be led by the Spirit. Paul said that before he was converted to Jesus, he was according to the righteousness of the Law blameless. Paul said he wanted to be found in Christ not having his own righteousness, which is by the Law, but having the righteousness which comes by faith in Christ.

Paul said that love is the fulfilling of the Law, because he who loves will not murder, lie, commit adultery, steal, etc. The Law is not for righteous, but for unrighteous. All of these things are in the bible IF you need book, chapter, or verse for any of them, let me know and I will provide it.

 

[Macabeus]

I don't recall an OT scripture that says people are saved by Grace. If you find it, please post it.

Abraham and Noah and others found favor with God through faith. That is the same thing as Grace, is it not?

 

[WalkingTree]

I did not say dead or freed from the Law, Paul did

Even more astounding, and exponentially difficult to grasp is that he did say we were free from sin. Romans 6:7,18,22

Galatians 5 (need I repeat it here??)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.



So, what amazes me is how this verse can be used all day long to debate obedience/non-obedience to the law and still not be understood for what it really is saying about the law, of sin and death.

The law of the Spirit sets us free from sin, thus releasing us from the law of sin and in the end death. Romans 8:1-4

 

[Guojing]

So, what amazes me is how this verse can be used all day long to debate obedience/non-obedience to the law and still not be understood for what it really is saying about the law, of sin and death.

The law of the Spirit sets us free from sin, thus releasing us from the law of sin and in the end death. Romans 8:1-4

That is because in some churches, they split the law into ceremonial and moral law and claim that the law we are set free from is only the former.

Other churches preaches the Law as a composite whole.

 

[memyselfi]

You know what cracks me up about Christians... they have this belief that G-d some how was "evil" in the OT then "got saved" in the NT... and it's "love, puppy-dogs, and roses"... Yet it's the NT... After Messiah came people GO TO HELL FOR ETERNITY!!! THAT IS RUTHLESS!!! OR MAYBE ALL 66 BOOKS OF THE BIBLE ARE THE INFALLABLE/ ENERRENT WORD OF G-D!?!....