Justification

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Lafftur said:
But, faith “works” by LOVE.

Without LOVE, there is no faith - there is nothing.

God knows those that “love Him” because faith works in them.
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You have it backwards.....faith saves....after that LOVE is a process of growth and maturity..........
 
dcontroversal said:
You have it backwards.....faith saves....after that LOVE is a process of growth and maturity..........
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The faith that saves works by the hearer having a love for the truth.

Love and faith (as well as hope) are always together.
 
Adstar said:
Justification is by Faith alone in the Atonement of Jesus alone..

Anyone who adds their works and makes salvation a mix of Grace and works has rejected the sufficiency of the Atonement of Jesus.. Thus when the day of judgement comes they will have No atonement for their sins.. They will have to try and boast about their wonderful works.. But Jesus will have non of it and will tell them to depart..

Matthew 7: KJV
22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? {23} And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
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You definitely have the wrong take on that passage. These be the false disciples and false prophets. The Judas branches, Cain's, Balaam's and so on.
 
cv5 said:
Welp. To be honest I am calling my emphasis a mistake. The context is clear and you are absolutely correct IMO. I was too fast on the draw on that one I must admit.
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And what does this mean for the way in which the passage was used by the person to whom I responded initially?
 
Lafftur said:
The faith that saves works by the hearer having a love for the truth.

Love and faith (as well as hope) are always together.
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Faith justifies and the faith that justifies is not our own, but the faith of Christ.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ; even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no man be justified in his sight.
 
dcontroversal said:
You have it backwards.....faith saves....after that LOVE is a process of growth and maturity..........
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I would back up one and say "knowing" comes first, then faith then the rest.....

Luke 10:22

"All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
 
safswan said:
And what does this mean for the way in which the passage was used by the person to whom I responded initially?
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Sorry I cannot find it you will have to post a link or something. But as for me, I am no works righteousness proponent.
 
John146 said:
Faith justifies and the faith that justifies is not our own, but the faith of Christ.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ; even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no man be justified in his sight.
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True, but don’t forget that the faith that justifies works by love for the truth.
 
Lafftur said:
True, but don’t forget that the faith that justifies works by love for the truth.
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Can you explain? Thanks.

Jesus’ faith was on display in His life and death, even the death of the cross for He loved us. Is this what you mean?
 
Tim416 said:
Thank you for your respectful post and scriptures to support your view. The thing about osas is, there is scripture in the bible to support it, and scripture that opposes it. The bible does not contradict itself, we would agree there I am sure. So what do we make of scripture concerning this subject, for normally I would never debate it, as it does not really get anywhere.
We say that God accepts us through faith in his son and not by works. We are saved, even when we are dead in transgressions(Eph2:5)
Can I put something to you? What if a person responded to an altar call at church one night, and accepted Christ as their saviour. But they were making a shallow commitment. Would that person then be placed in a saved state? In my view they would. But God, who is all knowing knows the commitment is not a full blooded one so to speak, the cost has not been counted to use Jesus words. Such a person may well walk away from the faith. Hence, scriptures I could(I won't now) quote would support the non osas belief regarding such people.
Others make a full commitment, only God sees the heart. For them, are all of the verses you quoted. You may not agree with me, but if we only cherry pick the verses we like in the bible, we limit the knowledge available to us, and we get a slanted message. I am not saying you do that at all I assure you, it is just what happens when we do cherry pick. And in my view, the best thing to do, is to seek a belief where you do not end up having your own set of scriptures that has to ignore others
God bless
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Hi...Did those men/women go up to the altar call on their own , if so , then they went in their own faith...
It is God alone who calls us to saving faith , He is the Alpha & Omega of our faith , that is why a true child of God , who has been adopted by God through Christ cannot walk away , we are sealed by the Holy Spirit , we are kept by the power of God , and we as His children will walk in the spirit because we love Him...xox...
 
Lafftur said:
The faith that saves works by the hearer having a love for the truth.

Love and faith (as well as hope) are always together.
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Faith comes first.....then love is process of growth and maturity.....

It is NOT that we loved him, but that he LOVED us and gave himself FOR US....

LET the LOVE of GOD be PERFECTED IN YOU <-----Perfect = complete or matured.....it is a process of growth and maturity.....simple as....
 
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John146 said:
There are many who realize their sin and receive Christ as Savior and do not receive any discipleship, no church, no Bible, and will eventually fall back into the world through circumstances of life. Their works will be burned at the judgment seat of Christ, receive no rewards, but are saved eternally.
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I would say that your position does not meet the test of rigorous hermeneutics.

I would also say that there is a striving (agonizomai) that is required.
Some very tough Words here......

Lk 13:24
“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’
 
dcontroversal said:
Faith comes first.....then love is process of growth and maturity.....

It is NOT that we loved him, but that he LOVED us and gave himself FOR US....

LET the LOVE of GOD be PERFECTED IN YOU <-----Perfect = complete or matured.....it is a process of growth and maturity.....simple as....
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In a true conversion, faith does not operate without love. Both are present.

Faith works only by love for the truth. Faith does not work without love.

True, God first loved us. When we hear and understand all that God has done for us, we respond with faith that works by our response to His love with our love.

We grow and mature by increasing our knowledge and understanding of God which increases our faith because our love for God is increasing at the same time our faith is.

Hope is also present with faith and love, but the greatest is love. :love:
 
Lafftur said:
In a true conversion, faith does not operate without love. Both are present.

Faith works only by love for the truth. Faith does not work without love.

True, God first loved us. When we hear and understand all that God has done for us, we respond with faith that works by our response to His love with our love.

We grow and mature by increasing our knowledge and understanding of God which increases our faith because our love for God is increasing at the same time our faith is.

Hope is also present with faith and love, but the greatest is love. :love:
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The order......FAITH leads to HOPE and HOPE leads to LOVE which is a process of growth and maturity...............
 
cv5 said:
I would say that your position does not meet the test of rigorous hermeneutics.

I would also say that there is a striving (agonizomai) that is required.
Some very tough Words here......

Lk 13:24
“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’
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Tribulation doctrine for the Jews. During the tribulation one must endure to the end through faith plus works avoiding falling from the faith and taking the mark of the beast.
 
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved Eph2:4&5

I would think a desperate person, would cry out to God through the Spirit's conviction. No one can come to Christ unless the Father calls them. Such a person would have little love when they come, but given the faith to believe, can repent in their wretched state and believe the Son of God died for them, and they can be saved on the basis of that. Everything else would come after
 
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Tim416 said:
Hopefully those who have not will one day attain to where you believe you are at
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I once had the pleasure of witnessing to a man in the countryside of El Salvador. For the first time, he heard what Christ did for him. Crying, He received Christ as his Savior that day. When I left, He had no Bible, no nearby church, no discipleship whatsoever. That man may have rejoiced in his decision for a while, but could have easily fell back into the world through his everyday circumstances around him. That’s a reality of many.
 
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