Justification

[Tim416]

1 John 2:19 (KJV)
[19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Are people who have received/shared in the Holy Spirit in a saved state? Only the bible tells us it is impossible for some of them who have fallen away to be brought back to repentance.

 

[Guojing]

We say that God accepts us through faith in his son and not by works. We are saved, even when we are dead in transgressions(Eph2:5)
Can I put something to you? What if a person responded to an altar call at church one night, and accepted Christ as their saviour. But they were making a shallow commitment. Would that person then be placed in a saved state? In my view they would. But God, who is all knowing knows the commitment is not a full blooded one so to speak, the cost has not been counted to use Jesus words. Such a person may well walk away from the faith. Hence, scriptures I could(I won't now) quote would support the non osas belief regarding such people.

I am sure you are aware of the parable of the prodigal son. Here is the essential part Luke 15

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Jesus shared 3 stories about repentance and he deliberately included this story. If you read it carefully, the son had the wrong reason for going back to his father. He wanted to return to his father because he was starving and want to eat, and was happy to be a hired servant. There was no indication he was truly sorry, he truly love the Father. He came back because of "carnal" reasons.

Yet what happened? The Father accepted him and called him "My Son". That showed how extravagant the love of the Father was. We like to think about God love like how humans would love. Let me propose that we will never understand how great the Father love for us is. We just need to take one step towards him, whatever reasons we have, he will take the opportunity to run to us, accept us, and shower us with all his love.

Thus, your point about shallow commitment, I believed is mute. I see that you regard the Parable of the Sower as a parable about salvation. Many people do not see it as that, I see it more of how deep the Word of God can go into your heart when you believe in him for divine healing etc. But its not about salvation.

 

[Sipsey]

Are people who have received/shared in the Holy Spirit in a saved state? Only the bible tells us it is impossible for some of them who have fallen away to be brought back to repentance.

Ah yes, the old Hebrews objection. It may take a while to understand what Jesus meant when He said, “You can do nothing without me.” He is the author and finisher of our faith, not ourselves.

No matter how justified one feels, if you ain’t justified by Jesus, it don’t count.

I am amazed at folks who have absolutely no understanding of Grace.
It is sad when one says, “we are saved by grace,but.”

 

[Tim416]

Ah yes, the old Hebrews objection. It may take a while to understand what Jesus meant when He said, “You can do nothing without me.” He is the author and finisher of our faith, not ourselves.

No matter how justified one feels, if you ain’t justified by Jesus, it don’t count.

I am amazed at folks who have absolutely no understanding of Grace.
It is sad when one says, “we are saved by grace,but.”

Is someone who has partaken of the Holy Spirit in a saved state when they partake of him, yes or no

 

[Sipsey]

Is someone who has partaken of the Holy Spirit in a saved state when they partake of him, yes or no

You misunderstand the hypothetical nature of Paul’s comment, therefore your context and interpretation is flawed.

You are aware there are 3 “ifs” in koine, correct? Assigning the wrong class condition to “if” will throw the translation off 180 degrees.

 

[Tim416]

You misunderstand the hypothetical nature of Paul’s comment, therefore your context and interpretation is flawed.

You are aware there are 3 “ifs” in koine, correct? Assigning the wrong class condition to “if” will throw the translation off 180 degrees.

Bye bye

 

[Sipsey]

Bye bye

Anger is the root of arrogance.

 

[Tim416]

Anger is the root of arrogance.

And what is changing the words of scripture to make them fit your own preconceived ideas?

 

[Sipsey]

And what is changing the words of scripture to make them fit your own preconceived ideas?

a Simple sigh and headshake is all I got for you Tim.

 

[Tim416]

a Simple sigh and headshake is all I got for you Tim.

Here is some more for you to do sommersaults with

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: ‘A dog returns to its vomit,’[g] and, ‘A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.’ 1Peter2:20-22

 

[Sipsey]

Here is some more for you to do sommersaults with

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: ‘A dog returns to its vomit,’[g] and, ‘A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.’ 1Peter2:20-22

The big hypothetical “If”

 

[Tim416]

The big hypothetical “If”

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’[d] and again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God Heb10:26-31

Of course, if, if is not possible, there would be no need to write the section would there! Much scripture then becomes irrelevant

 

[Sipsey]

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’[d] and again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God Heb10:26-31

Of course, if, if is not possible, there would be no need to write the section would there! Much scripture then becomes irrelevant

Your ability to grasp or sustain your salvation lies with God, not you or me.

 

[Tim416]

Your ability to grasp or sustain your salvation lies with God, not you or me.

You have to read the bible as one cohesive whole, not cherry pick. My view on this subject was written in post 30. Undoubtedly you will disagree with it, but at least I do not have to ignore scripture on this subject, or do sommersaults with the plainly written word

 

[safswan]

Those vicissitudes fail to answer the question: is God Almighty capable of error, loss, defeat or treachery? Impossible. As to the Parable of the Soils (yes, parable of the Soils), ultimately it is a question of belief. I can discern and recognize tons of supposed Christians who, in their heart, DO NOT BELIVE. For example Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, most of TNN, many many others. Listen to their preaching. Do they know Christ Jesus and proclaim his Word and keep It? Not a chance.

“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word."

They are frauds, fakes, false prophets. Just like Judas. In it for the money, the title, the prestige, the kingdom of this present age.

The subject of OSAS,is usually results in a fruitless discussion,as persons in life experiences and in the scriptures who fall into a backslidden state are said by proponents of OSAS to have never been truly saved ,in order to support their erroneous doctrine. The scriptures do affirm the safety of the elect but it is obvious that all who become saved may not all be the elect and hence some who were saved will not maintain the faith in Christ which will ensure their salvation.As the scriptures teach:


Hebrews 3:
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF, in departing from the living God.

Romans 11:
20Well; because of UNBELIEF they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches,take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


We are saved by grace through faith in Christ and so all who believe are saved.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith;..”


So the question is; what happens to the saved who no longer have that faith in Christ?Your view is that;this cannot happen.However in the two scriptures above Paul is warning of the same and hence it is possible for the saved to lose faith,depart from the living God and become cut off.This is what scripture teaches and anything else is simply the invention of men.

 

[Sipsey]

You have to read the bible as one cohesive whole, not cherry pick. My view on this subject was written in post 30. Undoubtedly you will disagree with it, but at least I do not have to ignore scripture on this subject, or do sommersaults with the plainly written word

As you stated earlier, there are verses that seem to apply to both views, yet both cannot be correct.

Only by the preponderance of the evidence does a right conclusion emerge.
Man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord.”

 

[Tim416]

As you stated earlier, there are verses that seem to apply to both views, yet both cannot be correct.

Only by the preponderance of the evidence does a right conclusion emerge.
Man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord.”

In the parable of the sower, Jesus spoke of people who made a shallow commitment but set out on the path. When trials and persecutions came they walked away. According to your theology they must have been in a saved state before they walked away
In the third example, people kept getting sidetracked by worldly things, Jesus did not say they walked away, but rather they did not mature in the faith, for you mature by practising right from wrong.

One group we can say did not have osas, the other group did.

 

[Sipsey]

In the parable of the sower, Jesus spoke of people who made a shallow commitment but set out on the path. When trials and persecutions came they walked away. According to your theology they must have been in a saved state before they walked away
In the third example, people kept getting sidetracked by worldly things, Jesus did not say they walked away, but rather they did not mature in the faith, for you mature by practising right from wrong.

One group we can say did not have osas, the other group did.

In the parable of the sower, Jesus spoke of people who made a shallow commitment but set out on the path. When trials and persecutions came they walked away. According to your theology they must have been in a saved state before they walked away
In the third example, people kept getting sidetracked by worldly things, Jesus did not say they walked away, but rather they did not mature in the faith, for you mature by practising right from wrong.

One group we can say did not have osas, the other group did.

I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and adopted into the family of redeemed sinners. I have no fear of losing what God has promised. I feel for those who only hope, but can’t be sure.

 

[Tim416]

I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and adopted into the family of redeemed sinners. I have no fear of losing what God has promised. I feel for those who only hope, but can’t be sure.

I did not say you should fear losing your salvation. But if you keep to a hard and fast rule one way or the other, there will always be scripture to oppose your particular view. So I will keep my belief, and you are entitled to yours

 

[Sipsey]

I did not say you should fear losing your salvation. But if you keep to a hard and fast rule one way or the other, there will always be scripture to oppose your particular view. So I will keep my belief, and you are entitled to yours

“The End”