Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

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Tim416

Guest
Where is your proof in scripture?
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Is that it?
The bible clearly shows sickness is a curse of the law, and yet so many Christians get sick under the law of grace. How is that?
And if we are all automatically forgiven of all sins, past, present, and future, then why are we told to confess our sins in order to be forgiven of them?
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I thought we were already forgiven and cleansed of ALL sins.
It is good to read the preceding verses of Gal3:13, in order to understand exactly what Paul is talking about:

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith.’[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, ‘The person who does these things will live by them.’[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole 10-13

Paul says we are cursed if we rely on obeying the law to be justified before God, for we would have to perfectly obey it to receive such justification, we would have to do everything written in the book of the law, that is what Paul is referring to in verse 13. Sorry for interjecting.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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So if you committed adultery, you would not have heartfelt conviction of sin as a Christian because you did so?

If you stole something you would not have heartfelt conviction of sin as a Christian because you did so?

If you bore false witness, you would not have heartfelt conviction of sin as a Christian because you did so?

Paul wrote:
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid. Yea, we establish the law Rom3:31

Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law. He did come to die for our sins!
Yes, I would have heartfelt conviction of sin. Because I know what the 10 commandments say.

Just like David, who wrote the Psalms, felt heartfelt conviction of sin because he knew the 10 commandments.

David didn't have the law written on his heart and mind. I don't have the law written on my heart and mind.

We have read the 10 commandments and we know that adultery, stealing and lying are wrong.


But that was the Old Covenant way. There is a New Covenant way that frees us from this Condemnation and Death.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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It is good to read the preceding verses of Gal3:13, in order to understand exactly what Paul is talking about:

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith.’[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, ‘The person who does these things will live by them.’[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole 10-13

Paul says we are cursed if we rely on obeying the law to be justified before God, for we would have to perfectly obey it to receive such justification, we would have to do everything written in the book of the law, that is what Paul is referring to in verse 13. Sorry for interjecting.
Isn't that what you are doing?

Relying on the law to show you sin?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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By the law being placed in your heart, it simply means in your heart you do not want to steal, bear false witness, commit adultery, take the Lords name in vain, you do not want any gods before your father in heaven. You have no righteousness of obeying it, no works of the law unto righteousness. Your sole righteousness is faith in Christ.
However you are still called a legalist who believes in the condemnation of the law
Because you are wrong.

The 10 commandments aren't placed in the Christians heart.

The 10 commandments weren't placed in the OT peoples heart either, but they didn't want to steal, bear false witness, commit adultery or take the Lords name in vain either.

Because whoever knows the 10 commandments knows that is wrong.

Psalms 51:1-3
1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
 
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Tim416

Guest
Isn't that what you are doing?

Relying on the law to show you sin?
Isn't that what you are doing?

Relying on the law to show you sin?
It does not matter the extraordinary lengths you go to, to try and explain away core biblical truth, that truth will not and cannot change.

Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20 Or as you stated: The law points out sin. All Christians would have conviction of sin from their heart if they stole, committed adultery, murdered, bore false witness, took the Lords name in vain, and so much more. It is not limited to words in the Ten Commandments. In their minds they would know such is sin, for that is where the law has been placed and they would have heartfelt conviction such was sin, for the law is also put there. Believers do not just know the law God wants them to follow under the new covenant, it is written in their minds AND placed on their hearts, and anything that convicts them of sin is in their most inward parts.

Paul tells us we do not make void the law through faith, rather we establish the law

Jesus tells us he did not come to abolish the law, but he did come to die for our transgressions of it/our sin

James tells us if we do not commit adultery but do commit murder we have become lawbreakers. (James2:11)

You can only be a lawbreaker concerning law that exists.



John tells us sin is(not was) the transgression of the law. 1John3:4

2Cor3:6-9 states the law written on stone was the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. For only perfect obedience of the law written on stone could justify you before God. But the law is not written on tablets of stone for believers, it is in their hearts and minds, and under the new covenant there is no such justification/righteousness of obeying it. So it is no longer the letter that kills, for it cannot condemn you. It is no longer the ministry of death and condemnation.

God will never abolish the fact he does not want you to steal, bear false witness, murder, commit adultery etc.

Paul plainly states Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, yet you try and explain it away as not really true. Therefore when he states believers are not under the law, they are not under righteousness of obedience to it, they are not under its condemnation.



We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17 ‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:15-17

If you are correct, how could Paul destroy what he was never under in the first place?





You have a mental block where the law of the ten commandments is mentioned. All you can see is the law written on stone that brings condemnation under the law. Because that law is in your heart, all it means is, in your heart you do not want to lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, covet etc. You have no righteousness of obeying it, and cannot be condemned for your imperfections concerning it. And it is not reflected in your life by looking to it and striving to obey it.

Anyway, as you refuse to believe Christ, Paul, and James there is no hope you will take any notice of me either is there.



I will leave you with the last word, I think you need it more than I do.











 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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It does not matter the extraordinary lengths you go to, to try and explain away core biblical truth, that truth will not and cannot change.

Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20 Or as you stated: The law points out sin. All Christians would have conviction of sin from their heart if they stole, committed adultery, murdered, bore false witness, took the Lords name in vain, and so much more. It is not limited to words in the Ten Commandments. In their minds they would know such is sin, for that is where the law has been placed and they would have heartfelt conviction such was sin, for the law is also put there. Believers do not just know the law God wants them to follow under the new covenant, it is written in their minds AND placed on their hearts, and anything that convicts them of sin is in their most inward parts.

Paul tells us we do not make void the law through faith, rather we establish the law

Jesus tells us he did not come to abolish the law, but he did come to die for our transgressions of it/our sin

James tells us if we do not commit adultery but do commit murder we have become lawbreakers. (James2:11)

You can only be a lawbreaker concerning law that exists.



John tells us sin is(not was) the transgression of the law. 1John3:4

2Cor3:6-9 states the law written on stone was the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. For only perfect obedience of the law written on stone could justify you before God. But the law is not written on tablets of stone for believers, it is in their hearts and minds, and under the new covenant there is no such justification/righteousness of obeying it. So it is no longer the letter that kills, for it cannot condemn you. It is no longer the ministry of death and condemnation.

God will never abolish the fact he does not want you to steal, bear false witness, murder, commit adultery etc.

Paul plainly states Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, yet you try and explain it away as not really true. Therefore when he states believers are not under the law, they are not under righteousness of obedience to it, they are not under its condemnation.



We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17 ‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:15-17

If you are correct, how could Paul destroy what he was never under in the first place?





You have a mental block where the law of the ten commandments is mentioned. All you can see is the law written on stone that brings condemnation under the law. Because that law is in your heart, all it means is, in your heart you do not want to lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, covet etc. You have no righteousness of obeying it, and cannot be condemned for your imperfections concerning it. And it is not reflected in your life by looking to it and striving to obey it.

Anyway, as you refuse to believe Christ, Paul, and James there is no hope you will take any notice of me either is there.



I will leave you with the last word, I think you need it more than I do.
The 10 commandments are NOT placed in the hearts and minds of Christians and I have proved this to you OVER and OVER.

ANYBODY who knows the 10 commandments knows that sin is wrong.

There is something COMPLETELY different written on the heart of the Christian but you ARE BLIND TO IT.

You want the law to be in place but you definitely don't want the repercussions of disobeying that law. Its kind of weird.


The Law written on stone will ALWAYS be the Ministration of Condemnation and Death. Because it shows sin, and therefore it condemns and shows death.

If it were then also written on the minds of believing Christians then Christians would ALSO be under continual condemnation.

2 Corinthians 3 shows you that there are 2 SEPARATE ministrations. One is Written on stone. The other is written on the Christians Heart.

2 Corinthians 3:3-9
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.


Do you have some sort of mental block against these scriptures? Are you in some sort of cult that won't allow you to see the Truth?

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

In your philosophy no one is EVER not under the law. The very law that puts sin in dominion over you is placed in your heart and mind.

I guess cross that one out of the bible. You probably have some bible version that says you don't rely on the law, you rely on grace.


You wouldn't know core biblical truth if it jumped up and bit you.

Its hard to show someone Truth when they can't understand the bible. There has to be a reason. I'm going with some kind of cult. That's what it usually is.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I wish guys like you would just say what you mean, and not treat us like school kids...……..
The word is a mystery.

The human mind never interprets fully.

We need the Holy Spirit.

We need each other.

Parts are given to each one.

Without your revelation we may not ever see what you see.
 
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Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
It was imparative he be tempted like we are.
Would not work any other way.

Side note; i am trying to remember if satan tempted Jesus with a woman.
Hmmmmm
 
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I understand all of that.

How come you didn't answer the question I asked you?

How could you POSSIBLY think that you lived under the righteousness of observing the law if it convicted you of sin???

Why would you call it "righteousness" if it didn't make you righteous before God???

I'm trying to help you see something but it doesn't look like it is possible.
Oh dear.
Now others are doing the mystery thingy.
Just joking dude
 
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Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
In the natural,the strongest forces facing man are;
The sex drive
The will to live
Food

In that order.

In the rat experiment,the male would be forced to cross an incremental shock to get to various compartments.
One compartment had food ,the other a female.
The current was increased in controlled "doses"
He eventually abandoned food but it took a lethal dose to stop him from the female.

The lesson for man is;
What do you think the devil uses against man? (As the most effective)
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Oh, wait that has that mystery thingy .

I will just blurt it out.

I forgot the question.

What was it again?
 
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However, as always, there are two sides to this coin. One is to meditate on how the depths of our sin magnifies the mercy of Jesus, and so excuse the sin within. Believing it remains.

As the other focuses on the fact that not only is Jesus merciful enough to forgive, he is also willing and able to clean the sin from our hearts.

I see too many focus on the mercy yet neglect the cleansing. So excusing there sins because they think Jesus only forgives. But he not only calls to forgive he also intends to purify, in the here and now.
Yes the believers are judged in this life.
Sinners in the next.

".....some are saved as through fire,they're saved,but their works are burt up"
 

Adam4Eve

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
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I don't think there is any scripture telling us we must choose only one, but as Paul tells us when he explains grace to us "heaven forbid". We are to know about grace, and we are to know about law.

Paul speaks against legalistic obedience even calling this sort of obedience the law of Moses. At that time many gentiles were only temporarily joining God's people then leaving taking their Jewish friends they made with them. The chief rabbis decided to make many rules for joining them and the word in the street about it was to call these requirements the law of Moses. Paul spoke against this, but there is never any scripture about a requirement not to keep God's laws.

Paul tells us that it is impossible for humans to keep God's law perfectly, that we are not perfect and can't be perfect. Humans are fond of saying that if they can't do it all they won't do any of it, but that is not scripture.

We are told to obey law, and we are told this obedience is not looked at by the Lord to decide on grace for us. Our faith is what God sees. The two, in scripture, are entirely separate. But each of the two, grace and law, are to be understood by us.
No, he doesn't allow you to choose.

"If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant"
Romans 4:14

The only Christians that want you to follow some parts of the law are those who want money out of you...


http://www.phildrysdale.com/2013/10/37-scriptures-that-prove-christians-are-not-under-the-law/
 
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Tim416

Guest
I'm sorry, but I have never seen so much Christian immaturity of knowledge as on this website. It seems the person who makes the most cosy statements gets the most thumbs up. One can only wonder why.
If eternally grateful is a moderator and cannot ban someone who has received life bans from this site, I will have to find another moderator who will.
I need serious debate, only a few can partake of that it seems on this website
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I'm sorry, but I have never seen so much Christian immaturity of knowledge as on this website. It seems the person who makes the most cosy statements gets the most thumbs up. One can only wonder why.
If eternally grateful is a moderator and cannot ban someone who has received life bans from this site, I will have to find another moderator who will.
I need serious debate, only a few can partake of that it seems on this website
1. Considering you admit to have been banned, and continue to hang out, (which is sin) you have no right to talk bad about others,
2. EG is not a mod, not sure where you got that idea,
3. Considering you appear to only want to push your view and belittle everyone else.. one can only ask what your even doing in a discussion forum, discussion by defenition, means yoy will most likely have mutliple views, if your not open to that, a discussion forum is not for you.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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I'm sorry, but I have never seen so much Christian immaturity of knowledge as on this website. It seems the person who makes the most cosy statements gets the most thumbs up. One can only wonder why.
If eternally grateful is a moderator and cannot ban someone who has received life bans from this site, I will have to find another moderator who will.
I need serious debate, only a few can partake of that it seems on this website
Why not invoke ignore.

I nuked some Small minds in the past.

If they get on the personal attack,put em on ignore.

It is awesome seeing the little ones disappear. Pooooof they are gonzo!!!!!
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
In the natural,the strongest forces facing man are;
The sex drive
The will to live
Food

In that order.

In the rat experiment,the male would be forced to cross an incremental shock to get to various compartments.
One compartment had food ,the other a female.
The current was increased in controlled "doses"
He eventually abandoned food but it took a lethal dose to stop him from the female.

The lesson for man is;
What do you think the devil uses against man? (As the most effective)
I know it was/is the most effective against me.

I never thought about why it wasn't directly recorded as satan tempting the Lord Jesus that way.

Was satan saving that one for later or did he have some sort of knowledge that the Lord was immune? Not sure that the Lord WAS immune because of the scripture that says He was tempted in all ways like us...
 
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Tim416

Guest
1. Considering you admit to have been banned, and continue to hang out, (which is sin) you have no right to talk bad about others,
2. EG is not a mod, not sure where you got that idea,
3. Considering you appear to only want to push your view and belittle everyone else.. one can only ask what your even doing in a discussion forum, discussion by defenition, means yoy will most likely have mutliple views, if your not open to that, a discussion forum is not for you.
It is sin to be here? I have told a mod I was banned for life, so should be rebanned, which was honest of me, that's not a sin. I suppose according to your logic, the mods are sinning not to ban me.

However, as you have previously stated you teach on this site, can I ask. If a believer committed adultery, would they conscious they sinned because they did so?
If a believer bore false witness, would they be conscious they sinned because they did so?
Ifv a believer coveted, would they be conscious they sinned by doing so?
Thanks in advance