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Hi selfdissolving, by the atonement being "perfect" you mean (specifically)............?
By "we are all okay" you mean................? 1. All will eventually be saved (Universalism)? 2. Once we believe that we are saved we are free to sin to our heart's content, because all of our sins have already been paid for by Jesus? 3. Once we are saved we never need to ask for forgiveness again? 4. We can never sin again? 5. Something else?
Thanks!
~Deut
By "we are all okay" you mean................? 1. All will eventually be saved (Universalism)? 2. Once we believe that we are saved we are free to sin to our heart's content, because all of our sins have already been paid for by Jesus? 3. Once we are saved we never need to ask for forgiveness again? 4. We can never sin again? 5. Something else?
Thanks!
~Deut
Of course everyone sins. But we need to be clear about many things regarding the sins of the saints:
1. "Sin shall not have dominion over you" applies to those who have the Holy Spirit within. Which means that all Christians can be overcomers by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Which means that there is no excuse for sinning.
2. At the same time, if we (Christians) say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. We need to examine ourselves daily. However, if we confess our sins (which also implies turning away from them) God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
3. We are saved by grace into order to turn away from all sins and idolatry, not continue sinning:
TITUS 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Nowhere in the Bible does God say that grace is a license to sin. Quite the opposite.
1. "Sin shall not have dominion over you" applies to those who have the Holy Spirit within. Which means that all Christians can be overcomers by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Which means that there is no excuse for sinning.
2. At the same time, if we (Christians) say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. We need to examine ourselves daily. However, if we confess our sins (which also implies turning away from them) God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
3. We are saved by grace into order to turn away from all sins and idolatry, not continue sinning:
TITUS 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Nowhere in the Bible does God say that grace is a license to sin. Quite the opposite.
I never knew you was said for this reason:
No one repents. There is no Baptism unless one first repents.
They go through the motions but they are not real.
Otherwise a voice would thunder from the sky as He did when Jesus was dunked.
The whole story is telling you something different than you have seen.
We all need salvation. Some are chosen. No one comes to Him unless first called by the Father.
Which is why Jesus said, "If a man hears my words and rejects them, I do not judge him."
You post replies with a mainstream view. They make no sense when comparing to the actual
simple interpretation of the Bible.
Jesus came to save the world. Not the few who claim to believe.
If You love me, keep my commands.
No one repents. There is no Baptism unless one first repents.
They go through the motions but they are not real.
Otherwise a voice would thunder from the sky as He did when Jesus was dunked.
The whole story is telling you something different than you have seen.
We all need salvation. Some are chosen. No one comes to Him unless first called by the Father.
Which is why Jesus said, "If a man hears my words and rejects them, I do not judge him."
You post replies with a mainstream view. They make no sense when comparing to the actual
simple interpretation of the Bible.
Jesus came to save the world. Not the few who claim to believe.
If You love me, keep my commands.
Jesus is the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world, and there is forgiveness of sins for those who confess Christ, and His atoning work.
If we are saved, and we sin it can be forgiven, and we are back on track with God.
But what if someone holds unto sins, and believes that they are right with God.
2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
There are many people that claim Christ that believe they are right with God despite holding unto sin, which causes them to not be led of the Spirit, for they are led of the flesh, and are ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, for their flesh holds them back for they will not let go of all the fleshy ways.
The Bible says turn away from those people, for their hypocrisy gives offense to the ministry, and God said do not give offense in anything that the ministry be not blamed, which the world says hypocrites because they are enjoying the world as the world enjoys the world, and sinning.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
If someone holds unto sin then the blood of Christ cannot wash it away for God will not forgive them for something they want to hold on to.
All sin can be forgiven, but if we hold unto sin then it cannot be forgiven.
For some think they cannot abstain from sin, for that is not true, and there is no excuse, and if they say they cannot abstain from sin then they are holding unto sin, and then how can the blood of Christ wash it away.
Is this what they believe, or do they want to believe it because they like that interpretation to give them liberty of the flesh so they can enjoy sin, and have an excuse.
Some people gravitate towards Churches that preach the holiness of Jesus, and being led by the Spirit acting Christlike, and some gravitate towards Churches that preach that sin does not affect their relationship with God for they cannot abstain from sin.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
The Bible is plain that if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, then by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, for they shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit, which there is no ways of the flesh there, and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able to endure, and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.
So how is there an excuse for not being able to abstain from sin, and how do they say they cannot abstain from sin.
A Spirit led life will not sin, so their sins are forgiven, and they are not sinning, so they are not under the law, which means the law cannot touch them for prosecution.
But if they hold unto sin, which many do thinking they are alright with God, then they are under the law.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
What seals the saints, and how they are led of the Spirit is if they depart from iniquity, but some have not the knowledge of God.
There is no excuse for the Holy Spirit is available to be able to act like Christ, and if it is possible to abstain from sin then God will require it.
What will God say that it is alright for you to sin, and offend people, and disobey Him, when the Spirit is available to you to give you the power to abstain from sin.
So it is obvious that not all that claim Christ hates sin, and does not want sin, for the power is there, but they deny it, and say they cannot abstain from sin.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
There is no difference between the Old and New Testament, for do not depart from the living God by the deceitfulness of sins.
It is strange but to those that uphold the holiness of Jesus, they might feel out of place where the majority are engaging in sins, and thinking they are alright with God.
It would seem like it would not be that way.
But it is the end time, and will happen.
If we sin it can be forgiven, and those led of the Spirit will know they can abstain from sin, and sin does affect their relationship with God, and will get rid of the sin, and keep moving forward, but those not led of the Spirit will think they are alright with God despite their sins, and will hold unto sin.
If we are saved, and we sin it can be forgiven, and we are back on track with God.
But what if someone holds unto sins, and believes that they are right with God.
2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
There are many people that claim Christ that believe they are right with God despite holding unto sin, which causes them to not be led of the Spirit, for they are led of the flesh, and are ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, for their flesh holds them back for they will not let go of all the fleshy ways.
The Bible says turn away from those people, for their hypocrisy gives offense to the ministry, and God said do not give offense in anything that the ministry be not blamed, which the world says hypocrites because they are enjoying the world as the world enjoys the world, and sinning.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
If someone holds unto sin then the blood of Christ cannot wash it away for God will not forgive them for something they want to hold on to.
All sin can be forgiven, but if we hold unto sin then it cannot be forgiven.
For some think they cannot abstain from sin, for that is not true, and there is no excuse, and if they say they cannot abstain from sin then they are holding unto sin, and then how can the blood of Christ wash it away.
Is this what they believe, or do they want to believe it because they like that interpretation to give them liberty of the flesh so they can enjoy sin, and have an excuse.
Some people gravitate towards Churches that preach the holiness of Jesus, and being led by the Spirit acting Christlike, and some gravitate towards Churches that preach that sin does not affect their relationship with God for they cannot abstain from sin.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
The Bible is plain that if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, then by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, for they shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit, which there is no ways of the flesh there, and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able to endure, and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.
So how is there an excuse for not being able to abstain from sin, and how do they say they cannot abstain from sin.
A Spirit led life will not sin, so their sins are forgiven, and they are not sinning, so they are not under the law, which means the law cannot touch them for prosecution.
But if they hold unto sin, which many do thinking they are alright with God, then they are under the law.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
What seals the saints, and how they are led of the Spirit is if they depart from iniquity, but some have not the knowledge of God.
There is no excuse for the Holy Spirit is available to be able to act like Christ, and if it is possible to abstain from sin then God will require it.
What will God say that it is alright for you to sin, and offend people, and disobey Him, when the Spirit is available to you to give you the power to abstain from sin.
So it is obvious that not all that claim Christ hates sin, and does not want sin, for the power is there, but they deny it, and say they cannot abstain from sin.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
There is no difference between the Old and New Testament, for do not depart from the living God by the deceitfulness of sins.
It is strange but to those that uphold the holiness of Jesus, they might feel out of place where the majority are engaging in sins, and thinking they are alright with God.
It would seem like it would not be that way.
But it is the end time, and will happen.
If we sin it can be forgiven, and those led of the Spirit will know they can abstain from sin, and sin does affect their relationship with God, and will get rid of the sin, and keep moving forward, but those not led of the Spirit will think they are alright with God despite their sins, and will hold unto sin.
Chuckyz2,
This entire post shows that you are very confused about everything. So let's see if we can make things clearer and I will indicate what is true and what is false..
FALSE. You are assuming that you know the hearts of others, when only God knows human hearts. So that is something you have to abandon.
TRUE. That is why the Gospel is to be preached to every creature (Mk 16:15,16)
FALSE. All are invited to come and freely partake of the water of life (eternal life).
TRUE. As long as you understand that the Father wants ALL to come to Christ.
TRUE. Which simply means that people must make a decision to either believe and obey the Gospel, or disbelieve and disobey the Gospel
FALSE. Since I have quoted the relevant Scriptures, there is no need to confuse the issue by using the term "mainstream views" (unless you prefer heretical views).
FALSE. What I gave you was a simple interpretation. I could have presented it in theological language to obfuscate and mislead.
FALSE. Yes He came to save the world , but only those who believe will be saved. And you are certainly not the judge of who claimed to believe and who actually believed. You are to focus on your own salvation and leave the rest to God.
TRUE. This is exactly what Jesus said and what His apostles taught. And one of His commandments is not to sit in judgment over the salvation of others. You have plenty of your own baggage to deal with.
This entire post shows that you are very confused about everything. So let's see if we can make things clearer and I will indicate what is true and what is false..
FALSE. You are assuming that you know the hearts of others, when only God knows human hearts. So that is something you have to abandon.
TRUE. That is why the Gospel is to be preached to every creature (Mk 16:15,16)
FALSE. All are invited to come and freely partake of the water of life (eternal life).
TRUE. As long as you understand that the Father wants ALL to come to Christ.
TRUE. Which simply means that people must make a decision to either believe and obey the Gospel, or disbelieve and disobey the Gospel
FALSE. Since I have quoted the relevant Scriptures, there is no need to confuse the issue by using the term "mainstream views" (unless you prefer heretical views).
FALSE. What I gave you was a simple interpretation. I could have presented it in theological language to obfuscate and mislead.
FALSE. Yes He came to save the world , but only those who believe will be saved. And you are certainly not the judge of who claimed to believe and who actually believed. You are to focus on your own salvation and leave the rest to God.
TRUE. This is exactly what Jesus said and what His apostles taught. And one of His commandments is not to sit in judgment over the salvation of others. You have plenty of your own baggage to deal with.
There is a difference between the saved believer who submits themselves to the Spirit and is wrestling to overcome sin vs. those who come to Christ and willfully turn back into living according to the sinful nature. Those who do the later have wandered from the truth and while in that wandered state are accumulating sin and are on their way to death, until or unless they repent.
"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
In the scripture above, "My brothers" would be addressing believers. In support of this, in order for one to wander away from the truth, they would have had to be in the truth. The scripture goes on to say that if another believer brings that wanderer back to faith, then a multitude of sins will be covered and that person will be saved from death. This demonstrates that in that wandered stated, that person is accumulating sin which leads to death.
"But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first."
The bottom line is how scripture says that we are saved, which is by grace through faith. Not a one time confession of faith, but faith from beginning to end. Consider what Paul said when writing about Israel's current state and their eventual salvation:
"You (Gentiles) will say then, “Branches (Israel) were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.
Eternal security is true, not by a one time confession of Christ, but by continuing in faith from beginning to end. If one goes back into world living according to the sinful nature, that person is no longer having faith, they are no longer producing the fruit of the Spirit, they are no longer being transformed into the image of Christ.
We are grace through faith.
"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
In the scripture above, "My brothers" would be addressing believers. In support of this, in order for one to wander away from the truth, they would have had to be in the truth. The scripture goes on to say that if another believer brings that wanderer back to faith, then a multitude of sins will be covered and that person will be saved from death. This demonstrates that in that wandered stated, that person is accumulating sin which leads to death.
"But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first."
The bottom line is how scripture says that we are saved, which is by grace through faith. Not a one time confession of faith, but faith from beginning to end. Consider what Paul said when writing about Israel's current state and their eventual salvation:
"You (Gentiles) will say then, “Branches (Israel) were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.
Eternal security is true, not by a one time confession of Christ, but by continuing in faith from beginning to end. If one goes back into world living according to the sinful nature, that person is no longer having faith, they are no longer producing the fruit of the Spirit, they are no longer being transformed into the image of Christ.
We are grace through faith.
As long as the believer has a repentant heart and is submitting him/herself to the Spirit, going from faith to faith, they the will continue to be transformed into the image of the Lord producing fruit. Once a person willfully turns back to living according to the sinful nature, that person is no longer having faith, no longer producing fruit, no longer taking up his/her cross daily. They have wandered away from the truth and need to repent and turn back.
I think many people try to distinguish between justification and sanctification. They believe that the former is by grace thru faith alone.
But once you are justified, it becomes your responsibility to work towards sanctification. Thus, if you disobey, if you sin, etc etc, you need to follow 1 John 1:9 prescription.
If you don't follow that guideline, some of them would say, you will not be blessed, you may fall sick and God will not answer your prayer when you ask for healing etc etc.
The more extreme ones may even say, "You may lose your salvation".
But once you are justified, it becomes your responsibility to work towards sanctification. Thus, if you disobey, if you sin, etc etc, you need to follow 1 John 1:9 prescription.
If you don't follow that guideline, some of them would say, you will not be blessed, you may fall sick and God will not answer your prayer when you ask for healing etc etc.
The more extreme ones may even say, "You may lose your salvation".
