Not By Works

[gb9]

“Argueless” doesn’t listen and ironically is here to argue.

it's sad that folks lke him, needs to study man, and a few others just come here to play games and harass others.

I just wonder how many of those master theologians have ever actually read the whole Bible from start to finish.....

 

[Argueless]

#79,139

Budman said:

Yes, they were saved. The Bible says all who were there were believers. As I've said many times, God does chastise His children, even to the point of taking them home, but they can never be lost.

At the moment of conversion, one is saved forever. Even if they walk away later. They couldn't go to hell if they tried. If salvation is truly a gift, and grace actually unmerited, this has to be so.

Click to expand...

It seems like even lieing to the Holy Spirit is allowed in your OSAS group.

Here's what the bible says;

...But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

You have just exposed the true colors of OSAS believers and I see those who agreed with you.

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.Ephesians 5:6

...And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. Romans 13:11

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But that is not 1 Timothy 4:10 says my friend. He does not attempt to save anyone. He saves, He does not attempt to save, He actually saves them. It says He is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe. If He is Savior of all men as your side of the debate says He is, then everybody is saved. But seeing that all men are not saved, then that verse can not mean all men means all men, as all men are not saved.

I can not see how you can read that in that verse.

1. It says Jesus is the savior of ALL men,
2. He then says he ESPECIALLY of those who believe (meaning he is ALSO the savior of those who are in unbelief)

The word especially is the greek malista meaning “above all, especially, of most importance” meaning God places those who believe in most importance over those who do not believe, But he is the savior of them also. Burt he will not FORCE anyone to recieve his gift of eternal life.

Again, A savior can come to save everyone, and even pay the price, it does not mean everyone will be saved. Many can chose to deny and reject his salvation.

If you love someone and buy them a gift, are they required to recieve that gift? If they say no. Are you going to force them to take it anyway? I think we both know the answer to that my friend.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I can not see how you can read that in that verse.

1. It says Jesus is the savior of ALL men,
2. He then says he ESPECIALLY of those who believe (meaning he is ALSO the savior of those who are in unbelief)

The word especially is the greek malista meaning “above all, especially, of most importance” meaning God places those who believe in most importance over those who do not believe, But he is the savior of them also. Burt he will not FORCE anyone to recieve his gift of eternal life.

Again, A savior can come to save everyone, and even pay the price, it does not mean everyone will be saved. Many can chose to deny and reject his salvation.

If you love someone and buy them a gift, are they required to recieve that gift? If they say no. Are you going to force them to take it anyway? I think we both know the answer to that my friend.

Again, it says He is the Savior of all men, so if that means everyone without exception my friend, then everyone without exception will be saved.

And with the gift analogy, it falls flat on its face as dead people can not receive the gift. That is why its of utmost importance to understand regeneration and conversion happen simultaneously. The lost person has no faith, as he is dead in sins(Ephesians 2:1). This lost person can not please God because only faith can please Him(Heb. 11:6). The lost man considers the preaching of the cross as foolishness(1 Cor. 1:18). The lost man is devoid of God's Spirit and will not accept the things of God as they are foolishness to him, neither can he understand them, seeing they are spiritually understood(1 Cor. 2:14) That is why God must first quicken them.

 

[Budman]

Again, it says He is the Savior of all men, so if that means everyone without exception my friend, then everyone without exception will be saved.

That's ridiculous. All that means is Jesus paid the sin debt for all who would receive it. It's like if a governor offered a pardon to every single inmate in a prison. Technically, that means freedom is available to all. But a pardon is only as good as it's acceptance. Until one freely receives the pardon, it's only a piece of paper.

Since you are a Calvinist, and Preacher dances around this question, let me ask you:

Are their babies/children in hell?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, it says He is the Savior of all men, so if that means everyone without exception my friend, then everyone without exception will be saved.

Well that is your view. But I will have to disagree, based on the two examples I have showed you. And in the passage itself. So we will have to disagree here.

And with the gift analogy, it falls flat on its face as dead people can not receive the gift. That is why its of utmost importance to understand regeneration and conversion happen simultaneously. The lost person has no faith, as he is dead in sins(Ephesians 2:1). This lost person can not please God because only faith can please Him(Heb. 11:6). The lost man considers the preaching of the cross as foolishness(1 Cor. 1:18). The lost man is devoid of God's Spirit and will not accept the things of God as they are foolishness to him, neither can he understand them, seeing they are spiritually understood(1 Cor. 2:14) That is why God must first quicken them.

Again this is your view. A dead person can not chose to deny, He can not chose to do sin, He can not chose to hurt other people. He can not chose to be self righteous. He can not do anything.

And to say me acting like the tax collector and crying out to God is me trying to earn my salvation, me trying to please God of my own power. Or Anything else, well. All I can say is this, Jesus said otherwise. The rest of the examples concern spiritual things, only a child of God can understand, Not the gospel, Which non believers have been placing their faith in since adam first sinned. (Abraham BELIEVED and it was accounted as righteousness - his new birth FOLLOWED his faith, not the other way around. All God did was give him a choice, Abraham had to decide, am I going to ytrust God. Or trust self..

So as you say, Your example falls flat on its face (sorry, but if your going to talk with this kind of language, then I will start to return the same, Although to be honest, I think it makes us look like kids. Not grown adults)

 

[Budman]

Well that is your view. But I will have to disagree, based on the two examples I have showed you. And in the passage itself. So we will have to disagree here.


Again this is your view. A dead person can not chose to deny, He can not chose to do sin, He can not chose to hurt other people. He can not chose to be self righteous. He can not do anything.

And to say me acting like the tax collector and crying out to God is me trying to earn my salvation, me trying to please God of my own power. Or Anything else, well. All I can say is this, Jesus said otherwise. The rest of the examples concern spiritual things, a child of God chould understand, Not the gospel. Which non believers have been placing their faith in since adam first sinned. (Abraham BELIEVED and it was accounted as righteousness - his new birth FOLLOWED his faith, not the other way around. All God did was give him a choice, Abraham had to decide, am I going to ytrust God. Or trust self..

So as you say, Your example falls flat on its face (sorry, but if your going to talk with this kind of language, then I will start to return the same, Although to be honest, I think it makes us look like kids. Not gorown adults)

I wonder how he's so sure he's one of the chosen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I wonder how he's so sure he's one of the chosen.

Most likely because he was taught that all who are saved are chosen, And he believes his is saved. So if what he believes is true, then that is how he woudl think he is chosen. I can see why he believes this way

 

[Budman]

Most likely because he was taught that all who are saved are chosen, And he believes his is saved. So if what he believes is true, then that is how he woudl think he is chosen. I can see why he believes this way

Well, Calvinism teaches the elect will "persevere" until the end. How does he know he will do this until the end of his life? How does he know he's simply not fooling himself? The only way a Calvinist is sure he was truly one of the chosen is if he winds up in heaven after death.

He has no assurance whatsoever.

 

[PennEd]

Can someone that believes in Calvinism explain the following verse in light of the belief that God chose before the foundation of the world who would be saved and who would not be saved....answer the following questions please.

MANY are called but few Chosen

Why are only a few of the many that are called chosen?

Why are not ALL THAT ARE CALLED chosen?

Why call many that will not be chosen?

Why call any if the saved are already chosen?

WHY not call ALL IF Christ Is the savior of all men?

There seems to be only one logical answer that fits all the above questions!

Hey brother, I tend to think the "many" called really does mean "all".

The use of many to mean all is unmistakable in Romans in several places:

15 But the free gift is not like the [e]offense. For if by the one man’s offense MANY died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

19 For as by one man’s disobedience MANY were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Certainly in both places here the word MANY MUST mean ALL.

 

[TruthTalk]

If man has no choice why did God call for us to reason together....why...

a. Did Adam have 1 rule eat or not eat
b. Why did Cain have a right to repent and master over his sin
c. Why did Noah have the right to build or not build
d. Did Abram have the option to stay or go
e. Why did Lot get the option to leave or stay
f. Why did Abraham get the option to offer Isaac or not
g. Why did Moses have a choice to lead or not
h. Why did the people chose to bekieve the lies of the 10 spies
I. Why did Joshua give the choice of who to follow God or false gods and then choose God
j. etc.....

Pay attention!

Who is the man who fears the LORD? He will instruct him in the way he should choose.

Let Your hand be ready to help me, For I have chosen Your precepts.

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants

I have chosen the faithful way; I have placed Your ordinances before me.

From day one it has been about choice...even CHRIST HAD TO TAKE FLESH, BE TEMPTED AND CHOOSE--->Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

There is a plethora of redundant scripture that really has no purpose in the bible if man has no choice in the matter....Such as...

No need for day unto day and night unto night nor the invisible things to testify.

Christ is the savior of all men especially those which believe.

We persuade men......

Preach the gospel....

No need for witnessing....

No need to be ready to give an answer for why we believe what we believe

NO NEED to proclaim anything because God has already made his decision and the men that will be saved will and those on the way to hell are outta luck...

But on the other hand....If God preordained before the world that ALL AND WHOSEVER WILL come to him by faith will be saved.....then ALL the above applies...

Hi decon, I have yet to hear a compelling answer to resolve the conflict of; "man's free will vs the Sovereignty of God", although your theology on this subject comes close but it does not resolve the issue.

I believe that resolving the tension between our "free will" vs "the Sovereignty of God" begins with "The will of God" As you have said; "If God has already made his decision, then there is, No need to proclaim."

If we submit our life to God as a living sacrifice, and we all do, and Christians are right in the middle of God's will for their life beginning with repentance, 2Peter3:9; "the Lord is; not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. That means that the choices we make are the same as what God wants. Or you could say that our "free will" is cooperating with, "the Sovereign will of God."

The tension is gone...

​

The Great Commission
18) Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19) Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20) and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

John6:43,44 - 43) “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus replied. 44) “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him,' and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[TruthTalk]

“Argueless” doesn’t listen and ironically is here to argue.

Thank you mailmandan, I have already taken every ones advice, "E-grateful included" and I have moved "Arguemore" back to "Iggyville.", I wonder "why commonsense isn't so common."

 

[BillG]

I wonder how he's so sure he's one of the chosen.

Because works save him.
After all works save.

It's interesting if we think about it.

People like you and me who believe that salvation is a free gift and th at we cannot earn it are accused of being greasy gracers and we can sin all we want and still be saved?

Can we not say the same to those who believe that works save?
They can do what we want but bung in a load of good works we will be ok.

A bit like the Pharisees.

Keep the letter of the law they live by but neglect the people that Jesus reached out to.
Put a millstone round their necks.

We are saved by grace through faith period.
Such faith, genuine faith will lead to works prepared for us to walk in.

Those works are out of love because we are saved, accepted, redeemed and set apart to do good works.

And because we love Jesus and the Father who first loved us.
Not because we had works in the first place.

It is finished as Jesus said.

 

[TruthTalk]

Because works save him.
After all works save.

It's interesting if we think about it.

People like you and me who believe that salvation is a free gift and th at we cannot earn it are accused of being greasy gracers and we can sin all we want and still be saved?

Can we not say the same to those who believe that works save?
They can do what we want but bung in a load of good works we will be ok.

A bit like the Pharisees.

Keep the letter of the law they live by but neglect the people that Jesus reached out to.
Put a millstone round their necks.

We are saved by grace through faith period.
Such faith, genuine faith will lead to works prepared for us to walk in.

Those works are out of love because we are saved, accepted, redeemed and set apart to do good works.

And because we love Jesus and the Father who first loved us.
Not because we had works in the first place.

It is finished as Jesus said.

Thank you BillG, you have just given your audience a clear presentation of the "True Gospel", and described a "False Gospel", to a "T".... "Christians are saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God, "Not By Works", lest anyone boast." Boasting allowed only about Jesus Christ our Savior. Ephesians2:8,9

Quote BillG; Amen!, and thank you for your testimony the other day, it did bless everyone's heart.

"It is finished as Jesus said."

All "religions" are "merit based", a little bit here and a little bit there and hopefully the scales are balanced on my favor. My wife is a born again Christian but she was raised as a Buddhist most of her adult life which is an extremely a "merit based" religion.

 

[Argueless]

Because works save him.
After all works save.

It's interesting if we think about it.

People like you and me who believe that salvation is a free gift and th at we cannot earn it are accused of being greasy gracers and we can sin all we want and still be saved?

Can we not say the same to those who believe that works save?
They can do what we want but bung in a load of good works we will be ok.

A bit like the Pharisees.

Keep the letter of the law they live by but neglect the people that Jesus reached out to.
Put a millstone round their necks.

We are saved by grace through faith period.
Such faith, genuine faith will lead to works prepared for us to walk in.

Those works are out of love because we are saved, accepted, redeemed and set apart to do good works.

And because we love Jesus and the Father who first loved us.
Not because we had works in the first place.

It is finished as Jesus said.

Assuming that I believe that all you said was true, what if in the end you'll find out that you have been DECEIVED, will you still be saved? What about me who believed your doctrine, will I be saved? What does the bible tell us about those who causes the little ones to sin?

...At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But IF ANYONE CAUSES ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES WHO “BELIEVE” IN ME TO SIN, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM THEY COME FROM! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO THE FIRE OF HELL. matthew 18:1-9

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

 

[Argueless]

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

 

[BillG]

Assuming that I believe that all you said was true, what if in the end you'll find out that you have been DECEIVED, will you still be saved? What about me who believed your doctrine, will I be saved? What does the bible tell us about those who causes the little ones to sin?

...At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But IF ANYONE CAUSES ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES WHO “BELIEVE” IN ME TO SIN, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM THEY COME FROM! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO THE FIRE OF HELL. matthew 18:1-9

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

Maybe I can reciprocate.

What will save you?
Who can save you?

Did the little children have works that saved them?

What did Jesus mean when he said

I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Did he say to the little children

7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM THEY COME FROM! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO THE FIRE OF HELL. matthew 18:1-9

Will I be saved if I believe in the doctrine?
Is your docrine "Works save us and only works?

If so then I reject the doctrine you preach and always will.
For me the reason is that I cannot recall where Jesus said "your works will save you"
If he did then he would not have to died on the cross.

But he did say "If you love me you will"

 

[dcontroversal]

Again, how can He be the Savior of all men if all men are not saved?

Simple...salvation is open to all men but only those that believe will be saved....and all I can say is your asking me the wrong question...ASK God..he is the one that inspired the verse....address the verse not me.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Do you wish to address the rest of my post that answered your questions my friend?

Do you wish to address the verse which addressed your question! You asked how can Christ be the savior of all men if all men are not saved and I quoted the verse which states he is the savior of all men especially for the ones that believe...

 

[dcontroversal]

If admittance were made as to context, then the teaching by necessity has to change. Pride will not allow that as a large portion of their gospel teachings are at stake. Choosing via innate faith is proven false because the misapplication of the Scripture used is apparent, and, Soli Deo Gloria still stands.

You know...you are very accusatory man!

Was Cain saved or lost?

Yet God told him he must master over his sin to be accepted......How could he possibly do that without faith?