Not By Works

[Argueless]

Two Kinds of Wisdom
...Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness. James 3:13-18

 

[Budman]

Yes, of course, it is all God.

Amazingly some will fight for "their part" while simultaneously attempting to say it is 100% of God.

God prepares the heart, plants the seed, faith is evidence of conversion, we are granted repentance, he does all the saving, and we are not saved via decision.

Several on here fighting the "workers for" also believe they did something in order for God to save them, i.e. God saw they chose him in the future (out of their sincere and genuine love for him! ) so the bottom line of that false gospel is he REWARDED them salvation.

Nope, sorry, it is due to nothing man has done, it is due to nothing man has not done, and due to nothing in man. It's Soli Deo Gloria!

We did nothing to be in Adam and we did nothing to be in Christ; as in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 it is "because of Him..."

Anyhow, carry on, get angry at the truth, fight for "what you did" (that you "chose".) Seen it all before a million times. Very few of you give God all the glory, you take some for yourselves for "choosing" and Him seeing you as a good boy for doing so.

Jesus commanded us to share the gospel with all the world.

Why?

Do you share the gospel with others?

If so - why?

The choosing is done. Correct?

 

[VCO]

Two Kinds of Wisdom
...Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness. James 3:13-18

YOU HAVE TO BE BORN AGAIN to access the second kind of WISDOM.


1 Corinthians 2:5-16 (NIV)
5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Can someone that believes in Calvinism explain the following verse in light of the belief that God chose before the foundation of the world who would be saved and who would not be saved....answer the following questions please.

My friend, I will pick up the gauntlet you have laid down.

MANY are called but few Chosen?

There is a universal call and an inner call. The universal call goes out to everyone we witness/preach to. The inner call, also referred to as the effectual call, God does as we witness to His elect sheep. Look at Ezekiel for example. He spoke the words that God told him to speak, and those bones came together after he spoke what he was commanded to speak. The lost are inwardly like those very dry bones. The spirit of man is dead and can not respond to the universal call because they are dead. Jesus told the Pharisees "“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness."(Matthew 23:25) Unless God FIRST quickens them, they will never choose to serve God. Why do I say this my friend? "and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."(Romans 8:9) These men in Romans 8:9 are in the flesh, lost and devoid of God's Spirit and can not please God whatsoever. Why can they not please God? "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."(Hebrews 11:6) The lost have zero faith, are dead in their sins and trespasses(Ephesians 2:1), and since they have zero faith, they can not please God.

That is why many are called and few are chosen my friend.

Why are only a few of the many that are called chosen?

Because He decreed it to be that way. He works all things after the counsel of His own will(Ephesians 1:11). He was not obligated to save anyone my friend, yet in His mercy, not fairness, He chose a number of God-hating people that no man can number, to redeem through His Son.

Why are not ALL THAT ARE CALLED chosen?

Ephesians 1:11.

Why call many that will not be chosen?

Ephesians 1:11.

Why call any if the saved are already chosen?

Because the saved of all time, past, present and future, were born dead in Adam and were in need of a Savior. He saves them via the gospel.

WHY not call ALL IF Christ Is the savior of all men?

How can He be the savior of all men if all men are not saved? He is the savior of all men, with all meaning all kinds of people, from every tribe, kindred and tongue. He is a particular God to a particular people.(1 Peter 2:9)

There seems to be only one logical answer that fits all the above questions!

Yes there is. Ephesians 1:11.

 

[dcontroversal]

My friend, I will pick up the gauntlet you have laid down.



There is a universal call and an inner call. The universal call goes out to everyone we witness/preach to. The inner call, also referred to as the effectual call, God does as we witness to His elect sheep. Look at Ezekiel for example. He spoke the words that God told him to speak, and those bones came together after he spoke what he was commanded to speak. The lost are inwardly like those very dry bones. The spirit of man is dead and can not respond to the universal call because they are dead. Jesus told the Pharisees "“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness."(Matthew 23:25) Unless God FIRST quickens them, they will never choose to serve God. Why do I say this my friend? "and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."(Romans 8:9) These men in Romans 8:9 are in the flesh, lost and devoid of God's Spirit and can not please God whatsoever. Why can they not please God? "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."(Hebrews 11:6) The lost have zero faith, are dead in their sins and trespasses(Ephesians 2:1), and since they have zero faith, they can not please God.

That is why many are called and few are chosen my friend.



Because He decreed it to be that way. He works all things after the counsel of His own will(Ephesians 1:11). He was not obligated to save anyone my friend, yet in His mercy, not fairness, He chose a number of God-hating people that no man can number, to redeem through His Son.



Ephesians 1:11.



Ephesians 1:11.



Because the saved of all time, past, present and future, were born dead in Adam and were in need of a Savior. He saves them via the gospel.



How can He be the savior of all men if all men are not saved? He is the savior of all men, with all meaning all kinds of people, from every tribe, kindred and tongue. He is a particular God to a particular people.(1 Peter 2:9)



Yes there is. Ephesians 1:11.

To your question....

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

To your question....

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Again, how can He be the Savior of all men if all men are not saved?

 

[preacher4truth]

How many are there in the midst of an evangelistic service who hear the Gospel, yet are not saved, and frankly won't be saved? This happened time and again in the missionary journeys of Paul -- many were called, few were chosen (those who repented and believed). Paul sums this up in 2 Timothy 2:8-10. Note Acts 18, and especially verses 9-10 being true in the midst of others becoming violent opponents to the Gospel.

Many have been under the call of the Gospel, yet it is true that only those whom God has chosen will respond in repentance and faith. The balance hate God and his Gospel, yet even we before conversion his elect (Ephesians 1:4ff) were under his wrath; Ephesians 2:3, and were hostile to God; Romans 8:7. Interesting, isn't it?

But it always boils down to fairness in the minds of many who will cry "That is not fair!" Well, you can tell that to God, right? This is what is going on in Romans 9:20.

But what if this happened? What if God decided in eternity past simply to exercise justice on each and every single person who had ever lived and punish all of them eternally for their sins? Would persons call that "unfair?" Probably. The thing is, that act would be fair, which is literally the definition of "just" or "justice."

So would the judges cry out against God for being just in that situation, "God, you're being just, you're not exercising mercy, that's not fair???!!!"

Of course.

People think that mercy is an obligation, but it is not by its very definition which is basically giving what we don't deserve. And God doesn't show mercy to each and every person who has ever lived. Why do we demand this as obligatory from God when we wouldn't even expect that our parents who punished us were obligated to give us mercy when we disobeyed?

The thing is God did not justly damn all. Instead through his Gospel he has mercy on some, and on others he exercises justice. He is then a merciful and just God, but there is no injustice (anything unfair) in what he is doing.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

How many are there in the midst of an evangelistic service who hear the Gospel, yet are not saved, and frankly won't be saved? This happened time and again in the missionary journeys of Paul -- many were called, few were chosen (those who repented and believed). Paul sums this up in 2 Timothy 2:8-10. Note Acts 18, and especially verses 9-10 being true in the midst of others becoming violent opponents to the Gospel.

Many have been under the call of the Gospel, yet it is true that only those whom God has chosen will respond in repentance and faith. The balance hate God and his Gospel, yet even we before conversion his elect (Ephesians 1:4ff) were under his wrath; Ephesians 2:3, and were hostile to God; Romans 8:7. Interesting, isn't it?

But it always boils down to fairness in the minds of many who will cry "That is not fair!" Well, you can tell that to God, right? This is what is going on in Romans 9:20.

But what if this happened? What if God decided in eternity past simply to exercise justice on each and every single person who had ever lived and punish all of them eternally for their sins? Would persons call that "unfair?" Probably. The thing is, that act would be fair, which is literally the definition of "just" or "justice."

So would the judges cry out against God for being just in that situation, "God, you're being just, you're not exercising mercy, that's not fair???!!!"

Of course.

People think that mercy is an obligation, but it is not by its very definition which is basically giving what we don't deserve. And God doesn't show mercy to each and every person who has ever lived. Why do we demand this as obligatory from God when we wouldn't even expect that our parents who punished us were obligated to give us mercy when we disobeyed?

The thing is God did not justly damn all. Instead through his Gospel he has mercy on some, and on others he exercises justice. He is then a merciful and just God, but there is no injustice (anything unfair) in what he is doing.

Leighton Flowers gets all huffed up when Dr. James White thwarts him at every turn. He(Dr. Flowers) says that if a man can not respond to the gospel in his fallen condition, then why preach to all men? To which Dr. White astutely quipped they do in their rejection of it. As you used Acts, look at the mob-like mentality the Apostles were confronted with when they preached the gospel. Those who used a mob-like approach in accosting them were choosing to respond to the gospel with a defiant "NO!" and assaulting them.

 

[preacher4truth]

Again, how can He be the Savior of all men if all men are not saved?

He is the Savior of all men, specifically, specially, particularly (the Savior) of the believing ones. 1 Timothy 4:10.

Contextually the passage is distinguishing between the true believer and those who are not, since the true believer will live godly before him, in comparison to those who don't (note the first several verses of chapter 4 and the entire chapter.)

 

[preacher4truth]

Leighton Flowers gets all huffed up when Dr. James White thwarts him at every turn. He(Dr. Flowers) says that if a man can not respond to the gospel in his fallen condition, then why preach to all men? To which Dr. White astutely quipped they do in their rejection of it. As you used Acts, look at the mob-like mentality the Apostles were confronted with when they preached the gospel. Those who used a mob-like approach in accosting them were choosing to respond to the gospel with a defiant "NO!" and assaulting them.

Instead of Flowers becoming the Romans 9:20 man, he should humble himself in awe of God. If I recall correctly he said God saved him because he humbled himself taking Scripture out of context in James 4:10 as a salvation proof text. That passage isn't talking about eternal salvation.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

To your question....

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Do you wish to address the rest of my post that answered your questions my friend?

 

[preacher4truth]

God has dealt to every man a measure of faith.....

That verse, Romans 12:3 is to the saved, not as you are using it, in other words not the world at large. Note also 2 Thessalonians 3:2. It proves God has granted faith to his elect.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

dcontroversal said:

God has dealt to every man a measure of faith.....God is fair, just and righteous....no man will have an excuse or be able to say that God was unfair in His dealings with men....

I see you are misapplying Romans 12:3 my friend. Who are these who God has dealt a measure of faith to my friend?

1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.(Romans 12)

This measure of faith given is given to God's elect at the moment He saves them. Remember, without faith, it is impossible to please Him(Hebrews 11:6) and men in the flesh(the lost) can not please God.(Romans 8:9) Why can they not please Him. They have ZERO faith.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

That verse, Romans 12:3 is to the saved, not as you are using it, in other words not the world at large. Note also 2 Thessalonians 3:2. It proves God has granted faith to his elect.

As you called it verse-ology, you can take that approach an have the bible to say anything.

 

[preacher4truth]

As you called it verse-ology, you can take that approach an have the bible to say anything.

If admittance were made as to context, then the teaching by necessity has to change. Pride will not allow that as a large portion of their gospel teachings are at stake. Choosing via innate faith is proven false because the misapplication of the Scripture used is apparent, and, Soli Deo Gloria still stands.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi forum,
Someone should tell the Argueless to stop posting walls of out-of-context scripture because all us us here have computers and we are equiped to cut-copy and paste all of the bible verses that we wish to on our own.

The ignore feature works wonders

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi decon, I've been thinking about PennEd's post off and on today. I'm not secure about the first part of this quote, but second half is true;

Quote PennEd:
1)."The seed grows into a NEW heart. The dead heart fades away. This is the new birth. IT IS ALL GOD. (True or False?)
2). We do not conceive and birth ourselves. (True).

Ezekiel36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

A few thoughts

As jesus himself said, not all seed will produce fruit. The seed is sent to the whole world (through the word) And only one of the examples of the seed ever grew and produced fruit.. The rest either failed to germinate, or started to grow but never got to the point the seed produced fruit

So what seperated the examples? I believe it is a persons respons to the seed (the word) as scripture says we are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Faith can not be removed from the equation. The seed matures to a new heart when a person stops trusting in self or religion or the people who have been leading them the wrong way, And through brokenness calls out to God and says he is broken, and he can’t do it.. and entrusts his eternity to God.

And no, this is not earning your salvation, Your not trusting in YOUR WORK, your trusting in GODS

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, how can He be the Savior of all men if all men are not saved?

For the sake of anyone who may be reading, I wish to answer this question. My brother here did not wish to discuss this with me anymore, and I want to respect his wishes. But I also want other people to be able to seea different view so they can have the ability to chose.

For the same reason a general will lead an army into enemy territory to attempt to SAVE the people who are being enslaved, He goes in to save everyone, But some will not want saved, and actually fight with the enemy (because they think they have earned favors from the enemy and wish to keep what they have got for themselves) who in the end, if the general is victorious, the people who he went to free are freed. And the ones who chose to rebell against his own people and fight with the enemy are lost.

God is the savior who came to the enemies (satans) territory, and suffered for the freedom of all mankind. But not all mankind desire this salvation, so they fight for the enemy instead of sitting still where they are and trustiing that God will come for them and rescue them from the enemy.

 

[mailmandan]

Hi forum,
Someone should tell the Argueless to stop posting walls of out-of-context scripture because all us us here have computers and we are equiped to cut-copy and paste all of the bible verses that we wish to on our own.

“Argueless” doesn’t listen and ironically is here to argue.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

For the sake of anyone who may be reading, I wish to answer this question. My brother here did not wish to discuss this with me anymore, and I want to respect his wishes. But I also want other people to be able to seea different view so they can have the ability to chose.

For the same reason a general will lead an army into enemy territory to attempt to SAVE the people who are being enslaved, He goes in to save everyone, But some will not want saved, and actually fight with the enemy (because they think they have earned favors from the enemy and wish to keep what they have got for themselves) who in the end, if the general is victorious, the people who he went to free are freed. And the ones who chose to rebell against his own people and fight with the enemy are lost.

God is the savior who came to the enemies (satans) territory, and suffered for the freedom of all mankind. But not all mankind desire this salvation, so they fight for the enemy instead of sitting still where they are and trustiing that God will come for them and rescue them from the enemy.

But that is not 1 Timothy 4:10 says my friend. He does not attempt to save anyone. He saves, He does not attempt to save, He actually saves them. It says He is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe. If He is Savior of all men as your side of the debate says He is, then everybody is saved. But seeing that all men are not saved, then that verse can not mean all men means all men, as all men are not saved.