2 verses that refute all forms of Premillennialism

[Hevosmies]

NEWS FLASH, premilleniaism isn't "historic" unless you consider the 19th century musings of mystics "historic". This teaching became popular with the imaginings of Scofield, who had a "revelation" about dispensationalism which led to a more sophisticated view of former premil views made popular by his odious "bible study notes".

These false teachings were propagated by those who followed Scofield's theology and ingrained in theology students who bought the mess of pottage while atteding Dallas Theological Semiinary, which was started by Chafer, an avid student of Scofield. This seminary is so bad that in later years it actually had Charels Swindoll (OR CHARLES SWINDLE) as president!

This is just blatantly false... false false FALSE information dont believe this junk people.
premillennialism is THE most historic position of the church

You just proved you dont know ANYTHING about church history, have NEVER read the early church fathers and therefore have no business making the claims you are making.

Read Irenaeus, read ignatius, read all these guys from the 2nd and 3rd centuries after the apostles, polycarp, ALL were premill.. Justin martyr, the list is long.

You are mixing up HISTORICAL premillennialism with DISPENSATIONALISM from dallas theological seminary. THE FIRST is what the early church believed, the LATTER is the Scofield version that came about recently.

Here is some quotes, with REFERENCES so you can make sure no bias is involved in the quotes. For anyone who is interested in truth and not just making claims about things they dont know anything about like scofield invented premillenniallism...sad.

http://www.ldolphin.org/premillhist.html

 

[garee]

Job 14: 12 is talking about mankind in general. This requires a little common sense from people. The resurrection of Jesus and some saints at His death on the cross is not what Job is referring to in Job 14: 12. He is talking about mankind in general and that they will not rise until the heavens cease to exist. He even makes that clear by saying that they are "sleeping". The idea is that they will rise at some point which will be after "the heavens are no more".

Where do we find the same language about "man"?

Hebrews 9: 27, " It is given to man once to die and then the judgment." This is a general statement for all mankind and is very similar to Job 14: 12. But we know from 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-17 that there will be a generation that will be raptured alive and will never taste death.

The idea is, generally speaking, man will not rise until the heavens are no more and that he will die once only.

I think the word sleep is used two ways like many words. Some that have a corrupted spirit sleep and not rise, others given a new incorruptible spirit do rise

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep..John11:

They did not know what kind of sleep. Martha given the faith of Christ that worked in her to both will and do His good purpose said, he will rise again at the last day when all who sleep waiting for the wake up call . Arise and receive your new bodies.

Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.John11:23-24









24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[garee]

This is just blatantly false... false false FALSE information dont believe this junk people.
premillennialism is THE most historic position of the church

You just proved you dont know ANYTHING about church history, have NEVER read the early church fathers and therefore have no business making the claims you are making.

Read Irenaeus, read ignatius, read all these guys from the 2nd and 3rd centuries after the apostles, polycarp, ALL were premill.. Justin martyr, the list is long.

You are mixing up HISTORICAL premillennialism with DISPENSATIONALISM from dallas theological seminary. THE FIRST is what the early church believed, the LATTER is the Scofield version that came about recently.

Here is some quotes, with REFERENCES so you can make sure no bias is involved in the quotes. For anyone who is interested in truth and not just making claims about things they dont know anything about like scofield invented premillenniallism...sad.

http://www.ldolphin.org/premillhist.html

The early church father are the ones that killed the Christians According to a law of those fathers.... showing they were walking by sight (out of sight out of mind) as misperceived competition . Why seek after their private interpretations? The Reformers were mostly Amil. No literal thousand years. Christ will come as a thief in the night.

 

[Hevosmies]

The early church father are the ones that killed the Christians According to a law of those fathers.... showing they were walking by sight (out of sight out of mind) as misperceived competition . Why seek after their private interpretations? The Reformers were mostly Amil. No literal thousand years. Christ will come as a thief in the night.

Why seek after the reformers' private interpretations? Right back at ya

And early church fathers ones killing christians?? Another one with NO CLUE on church history. Did you just make this up or hear this somewhere?

TEH EARLY CHURCH FATHERS WERE MARTYRED FOR THEIR CHRISTIAN FAITH........ they were not persecuting the christians, they were the ones being persecuted.

 

[Locutus]

Since you are simply MISINTERPRETING Job, your whole premise is false.

MISINTERPRETING is your Job

 

[dcontroversal]

Job 14: 12, "So man lies down and does not rise UNTIL THE HEAVENS ARE NO MORE. They will not awake nor be roused from their sleep."

Rev 11: 18, "...and the TIME OF THE DEAD, that they should be JUDGED, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, SMALL AND GREAT, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."

Where do we find the same language of these 2 verses in the Bible?

Rev 20: 11-12, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the EARTH AND THE HEAVEN FLED AWAY and there was found no place for them. And I saw the DEAD, SMALL AND GREAT, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the DEAD were JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

The Great White Throne Judgment happens AFTER the 1,000 years of Revelation 20. This makes all forms of premillennialism false. It doesn't matter if you are pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, they are all forms of premillennialism and cannot be true according to the above Scriptures.

Premillennialism has people being resurrected while there is still a heavens to populate a supposed 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. This directly contradicts Job 14: 12.

Rev 11: 18 is the seventh trumpet. All premillennialists believe this event happens BEFORE the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Not possible according to this verse since it is the "time of the dead that they should be judged" and we see that this happens AFTER the 1,000 years in Rev 20.

ummmmmm your Revelation 11 quote is at the sounding of the 7th trump.....so....a post containing 50% error will always boil down to error!!

 

[KJV1611]

Job 14: 12 is talking about mankind in general. This requires a little common sense from people. The resurrection of Jesus and some saints at His death on the cross is not what Job is referring to in Job 14: 12. He is talking about mankind in general and that they will not rise until the heavens cease to exist. He even makes that clear by saying that they are "sleeping". The idea is that they will rise at some point which will be after "the heavens are no more".

Ok but you’re ignoring the context of the verse in Job to squeeze it into your incorrect view of the resurrection. But hey if your comfortable doing that, that’s your business I guess. I would never misrepresent the word that way.

Have you ever considered that since your having to twist Job to make it fit that maybe you don’t understand the resurrection as well as you think you do?

Have you considered that if your wrong, and you are, that your leading people into error?

Where do we find the same language about "man"?

Hebrews 9: 27, " It is given to man once to die and then the judgment." This is a general statement for all mankind and is very similar to Job 14: 12. But we know from 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-17 that there will be a generation that will be raptured alive and will never taste death.

The idea is, generally speaking, man will not rise until the heavens are no more and that he will die once only.

Applying your logic further from your quote above and saying the "heavens" in Job 14: 12 aren't really literal then we would have to say that the "death" in Hebrews 9: 27 isn't really literal either if you are going to be consistent with your hermeneutic. This of course would be ridiculous since people are physically dying every day. You are cherry picking.

I just believe the Bible for what it says. It says a man is appointed to die once... it’s settled, people don’t die twice. I don’t know of any examples in the Bible where it talks about a person being raised and then dying later. Maybe it’s there but I haven’t seen it.

This is the problem with full-preterism. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It descends into making every verse that doesn't agree with your eschatology say whatever you want. We will just spiritualize that one without any warrant! There has to be justification from the context. There is no justification in Job 14: 12 to make "heavens are no more" figurative. There are many examples that I have given in this thread that show it should be taken literally.

I’m not a preterist, I believe Christ will return, rapture the church and rule and reign a thousand years.

The justification to chose the spiritual heaven instead of the literal is because dead men rose, they went to heaven with a Jesus when he ascended. No point in arguing this with me, it’s found in multiple places in scripture. 😊

Before I get flamed by premillennialists let me reiterate again, you spiritualize a passage when there is warrant for taking the verse or passage as figurative language. When it is literal obviously you take it at face value. There is no warrant at all to take Job 14: 12 as figurative. If you can provide an argument otherwise I am more than willing to consider it.

Scripture can’t be spiritualized at will, context determines if it’s literal or spiritual. The heavens in Job HAVE TO BE spiritual because the dead were raised and ascended with Christ.

Youre not going to be open to any arguments because your mind is already made up and any verse that goes contrary to your view your gonna twist it or ignore it.

Case on point. Christ returns the same way he left. He returns with ten thousands of his saints so he left with ten thousands of his saints ... Now go ahead and ignore what that verse actually says and twist it so it fits your view.😊

 

[Locutus]

Luke 17:20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed"

But according to the contradictory millennialist argument it does.

 

[delirious]

ummmmmm your Revelation 11 quote is at the sounding of the 7th trump.....so....a post containing 50% error will always boil down to error!!

Where did I make an error? I said in my post that Rev 11: 18 is at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. According to that verse that is when the dead are judged.

All premillennialists say that the seventh trumpet happens before the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. That is not possible because we are told in Revelation when the dead are judged in Rev 20: 11-12. It is after the 1,000 year reign earlier in that chapter. The only possible interpretation is that the 1,000 years is symbolic and corresponds to the current age we are in right now.

 

[delirious]

Ok but you’re ignoring the context of the verse in Job to squeeze it into your incorrect view of the resurrection. But hey if your comfortable doing that, that’s your business I guess. I would never misrepresent the word that way.

Tell me how I'm ignoring the context of Job 14: 12? The verse is very plain in its meaning. You are claiming its figurative. If it is figurative, please give me your justification from Job chapter 14 for why it should be interpreted figuratively and not literally.

Have you ever considered that since your having to twist Job to make it fit that maybe you don’t understand the resurrection as well as you think you do?

Twisting Job? Are you sure that's me? You are claiming the verse is figurative and mentioned the context. Please show me why from Job chapter 14 that verse 12 and the phrase "heavens are no more" should be taken figuratively and not literally.

Have you considered that if your wrong, and you are, that your leading people into error?

You seem awfully confident that I'm wrong but just like everybody else on here you have provided no valid argumentation to refute the 2 verses I provided in my original post.

You made a claim that is based on a HUGE assumption. You said that because Jesus was raised from the dead, and the heavens didn't cease to exist when that happened, you decided to apply that to Job 14: 12 and say that the phrase "heavens are no more" must be figurative.

I just believe the Bible for what it says. It says a man is appointed to die once... it’s settled, people don’t die twice. I don’t know of any examples in the Bible where it talks about a person being raised and then dying later. Maybe it’s there but I haven’t seen it.

Now you are just being inconsistent. I pointed out to you that Hebrews 9: 27 also uses the word "man" for mankind in general just like Job 14: 12 does. But now you want to take the dying in Hebrews 9: 27 literally but the "heavens are no more" in Job 14: 12 figuratively. Why?

I showed you from 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-17 that there will be a whole generation of Christians who won't die. This is an exception just like Jesus is to Job 14: 12. So if you are to be consistent with your hermeneutic the "death" in Hebrews 9: 27 should also be figurative. You can't have it both ways my friend. Either they are both figurative or they are both literal. You don't get to mix and match to fit your theology. It is obvious that they are both literal in Job 14: 12 and Hebrews 9: 27.

I’m not a preterist, I believe Christ will return, rapture the church and rule and reign a thousand years.

You are not the usual premillennialist then. You take things very figuratively for a premill and must drive your premill friends nuts lol. I say that teasing you.

The justification to chose the spiritual heaven instead of the literal is because dead men rose, they went to heaven with a Jesus when he ascended. No point in arguing this with me, it’s found in multiple places in scripture.

I don't follow what you are saying here. Are you saying that there is a "spiritual heaven" that passed away at Jesus' resurrection? Can you provide Scripture to support that? If i misunderstood you feel free to correct me please.

Scripture can’t be spiritualized at will, context determines if it’s literal or spiritual. The heavens in Job HAVE TO BE spiritual because the dead were raised and ascended with Christ.

You contradicted what you said in the first sentence with the second sentence. Yikes! You are saying that because Jesus rose from the dead that is your reasoning for making "heavens are no more" in Job 14: 12 figurative. That is not using context! You went to the gospels not Job 14. You say Scripture can't be "spiritualized at will" but that is exactly what you just did.

Youre not going to be open to any arguments because your mind is already made up and any verse that goes contrary to your view your gonna twist it or ignore it.

I haven't twisted anything. I mean this with all due respect but that is you who has been doing that. The 2 verses I provided in this thread are very clear. They are not ambiguous verses like some in the Bible. That's why I used them.

What do you do with Rev 11: 18 that I posted? That also shows a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth to be impossible. Do you have an explanation for that? I'm not trying to be confrontational with you. I just hold people, as well as myself, accountable for their interpretations and when they are weak they should be called out.

What do you say about Revelation 11: 18?

 

[MattforJesus]

There will be a literal reign of Jesus on earth for 1000 years, where Jesus is on earth with His saints ruling over the heathen that God spared at the battle of Armageddon when the world attacks Jerusalem.

And here is why.

1.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, which will be accomplished because He is a sinless man, and all the roles associated with Israel, and the operation of God, which He is the perfect King, perfect High Priest, perfect Prophet, perfect saint, perfect temple, and sacrifice, and any other thing He had to fulfill.

And this must be fulfilled on earth by a sinless man, and when the law has been fulfilled then heaven and earth shall pass away.

But heaven and earth has not passed away yet, so Jesus did not fulfill the law yet because He has not fulfilled the role of perfect King on earth for He came as a humble servant, and not a King.

When He has fulfilled the role of perfect King which must be done on earth with His presence, then heaven and earth shall pass away, and the saints will go to a new heaven, and earth, the New Jerusalem, where sin has never been, and sin will never be, and the former shall not be remembered, nor come to mind, for they are associated with sin and rebellion.

So Jesus has to rule on earth for the role of perfect King so the law can be fulfilled.

2.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee(Gentile nations): but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

God always restores Israel when they go astray, and He will in the future also.

It is God's will to restore the kingdom on earth to the Jews in the future, and when He does they will know the LORD their God from that day forward, and He will never hide His face from them again, which means they will always be in the truth from that time forward.

Which this cannot be a past prophesy for if it was Israel as a nation would be in the truth today, and it cannot be talking of the Babylonian captivity, for if that were true Israel would of been in the truth from that time forward, and would of not rejected Jesus, and would of not been ruled by the Roman Empire, and would of not been scattered in to the nations, and would be in the truth today.

But we see that Israel as a nation is not in the truth, so this is a future prophesy when the kingdom is restored to Israel, and Jesus rules out of Jerusalem fulfilling the role of perfect King, and no operating Gentile government is ruling.

So Jesus will rule on earth for 1000 years, a literal ruling on earth, for it has to be done for the law to be fulfilled.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Israel is blinded in part, until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles, and so all Israel shall be saved, for they are in the truth that Jesus is their Messiah, which Jesus said the Jews will not see Him again until they say, blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.

The kingdom on earth will be restored to Israel, and Jesus will fulfill the role of perfect King on earth to fulfill the law.

And that is what the literal reign on earth is about.

Also it does not make sense that the 1000 years is spiritual with Jesus not being on earth, for Jesus said all power is given unto Him in heaven and earth, so why is it only a 1000 years when Jesus has been ruling ever since He ascended to heaven which is more than a 1000 years.

And also Jesus rules with a rod of iron, which means that everything will be according to the operation of Jesus, and none of the heathen's ways, but when did that ever happen on earth when people have been rejecting Jesus ever since He ascended.

And also there is a 1000 years of peace where people are not fighting with each other, but when did that ever happen when people have been warring and fighting ever since Jesus ascended to heaven.

So there is no way I will believe that it is not a literal 1000 years on earth, when there is too much evidence to support it.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

The heathen will only acknowledge the God of Israel.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The heathen will not acknowledge any religious figure, or god, but Jesus.

And we know that has never happened on earth yet, and the heathen will not be in heaven acknowledging the truth.

And even though the heathen acknowledge the truth they cannot be saved, for they followed the beast, and took the mark of the beast, which has to do with technology, but when God defeated the world He spared some of them so Jesus and the saints can rule over them.,

 

[delirious]

When He has fulfilled the role of perfect King which must be done on earth with His presence, then heaven and earth shall pass away, and the saints will go to a new heaven, and earth, the New Jerusalem, where sin has never been, and sin will never be, and the former shall not be remembered, nor come to mind, for they are associated with sin and rebellion. So Jesus has to rule on earth for the role of perfect King so the law can be fulfilled.

Can you provide me a Scripture that explicitly states that Jesus will rule and reign from Jerusalem for 1,000 years?

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

This is talking about the new heavens and earth. Not a millennial kingdom.
Isaiah 65: 25 is about the new heavens and earth and says, "The wolf and lamb shall feed together...the lion shall eat straw like the ox...they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain." What does Isaiah 11: 6-9 say?
Isaiah 11: 6-9, "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb...the lion shall eat straw like the ox...they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain."

The same exact phrases in Isaiah 11 as Isaiah 65. We know from Isaiah 65: 17 that the new heavens and new earth is being described. Not a millennium. Isaiah 11 is not the millennium. It is the new heavens and earth.

Your quotations from Romans 11 and Ezekiel 39 also say nothing about a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

I provided 2 verses at the beginning of this thread that prove a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible. Do you have a defense against them? If not, why are you believing in a false doctrine like premillennialism? If you have a defense against those 2 verses I would love to hear it so i can correct my position if I am in error.

1 Peter 3: 15, "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you..."

 

[Deade]

Job 14: 12, "So man lies down and does not rise UNTIL THE HEAVENS ARE NO MORE. They will not awake nor be roused from their sleep."

Rev 11: 18, "...and the TIME OF THE DEAD, that they should be JUDGED, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, SMALL AND GREAT, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."

Where do we find the same language of these 2 verses in the Bible?

Rev 20: 11-12, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the EARTH AND THE HEAVEN FLED AWAY and there was found no place for them. And I saw the DEAD, SMALL AND GREAT, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the DEAD were JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

The Great White Throne Judgment happens AFTER the 1,000 years of Revelation 20. This makes all forms of premillennialism false. It doesn't matter if you are pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, they are all forms of premillennialism and cannot be true according to the above Scriptures.

Premillennialism has people being resurrected while there is still a heavens to populate a supposed 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. This directly contradicts Job 14: 12.

Rev 11: 18 is the seventh trumpet. All premillennialists believe this event happens BEFORE the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Not possible according to this verse since it is the "time of the dead that they should be judged" and we see that this happens AFTER the 1,000 years in Rev 20.

This is your original post. You gave Job 14:12 as the dead sleeping. All good. Then you list Rev. 20:11, 12 which is the Great White throne Judgment. Still good. What has the first resurrection have to do with the dead? Nothing, at all.

As I pointed out in an earlier post the dead being judged in Rev. 11:18 are the walking dead the unsaved, uncalled living people. They are also called the destroyers of the earth in the same verse. Obviously if they are active in doing anything, they are not asleep in the grave. Another thing: what has heaven or Job 14:12 to do with the first resurrection? No one is going to heaven. Christ will encircle the earth and then set His feet down on the Mount of Olives with them. Heaven is coming to earth. I am done arguing with this Amil nonsense.

 

[garee]

1.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, which will be accomplished because He is a sinless man, and all the roles associated with Israel, and the operation of God, which He is the perfect King, perfect High Priest, perfect Prophet, perfect saint, perfect temple, and sacrifice, and any other thing He had to fulfill.

And this must be fulfilled on earth by a sinless man, and when the law has been fulfilled then heaven and earth shall pass away.

But heaven and earth has not passed away yet, so Jesus did not fulfill the law yet because He has not fulfilled the role of perfect King on earth for He came as a humble servant, and not a King.

There are two kinds of law. (1) The law as it is written that kills. And (2) The law of faith as that not seen it heals or makes whole.

(1)The law that will not pass away until the last person is called heavenward on the last day is the witten law it kills.

(2) The law of faith not seen was fulfilled when Christ according to his demonstration of his labor of love said;" It was finished" and gave up the ghost returning to the father .

Corrupted flesh was necessary to condemn sin in the things seen, sinful flesh

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

There will not be another demonstration in respect to the Son of man and his flesh typified as sinful .No fleshly God

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.2 Coriintians 5:16

 

[delirious]

As I pointed out in an earlier post the dead being judged in Rev. 11:18 are the walking dead the unsaved, uncalled living people. They are also called the destroyers of the earth in the same verse.

Let me quote Rev 11: 18 again, "...and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."

You are making the false claim that Rev 11: 18 is only talking about "the walking dead, the unsaved, uncalled living people." With all due respect this is incredibly bad exegesis on your part. For instance:

The verse says the "time of the dead". We have 2 options here for interpreting this. The first option is that it means everyone who has lived and died physically on planet earth or your option which is that these are "spiritually dead" but physically alive people. Which one is correct?

The answer is obvious. I bolded in the verse above "reward your servants the prophets and the saints" When did the prophets live? They lived in the Old Testament. They are clearly physically dead but spiritually alive being saved individuals.

So the verse itself refutes your interpretation that this is talking about "spiritually dead" people. It can only be interpreted as the physically dead.

I shouldn't have to explain that everyone who has lived and died from Adam and Eve to the seventh trumpet is a mixture of saved and unsaved people. It should be obvious.

Since we know the dead are judged at the Great White Throne which is after the 1,000 years in Rev 20 then we know that the seventh trumpet is after the 1,000 years of Rev 20. This destroys premillennialism.

Another thing: what has heaven or Job 14:12 to do with the first resurrection?

Premillennialism says that people are resurrected while there is still a heavens so that they can live and reign with Christ on this current earth and heavens for 1,000 years. This directly contradicts Job 14: 12. Job 14: 12 says man is not resurrected until the heavens pass away.

 

[OneFaith]

What!!? The cross is David's Throne?

David did not have a Throne in Heaven!

There are dozens of prophecies related to Jesus reigning in Jerusalem, on David's Throne. Here is just one:

Jeremiah 23:5-6

"Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness IN THE LAND "In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, 'The LORD our righteousness.'

Job says the dead are dead until the final judgement. How do you spin that to mean there is no 1000 yr reign?



I did not ask for your interpretation of what Gabriel told Mary. I asked WHO, or WHERE you got that interpretation from? He said Jesus would reign on David's Throne. Who are you to interpret that to mean ANYTHING other than what it says?

Have you ever heard the hymn "To Canaan's Land I'm on my way where the soul never dies"? And if so, when you sing it, do you think it's a physical place? Jesus said to Pilot "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were My servants would fight to prevent My arrest."

 

[Noose]

Yes ma'am, and I read that He will reign until all enemies are put under His feet, I know it's a lot but I just want to share 1 Cor 1:12-28 Special attention to verse 25 on,

12Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

He is King now, and His kingdom will know no end, and conquers all, right? It will like the mustard seed grow (Mat 13:31), and all nations will stream up to His house (Is 2:2), and the gates of hell will not prevail against it (Mat 16:18). I believe His word holds the very same power today it has always held, His truth just as true. He has blessed any of us reborn of the Spirit with reconciliation to Himself, as we were created to be, giving us a peace and wholeness the flesh nor world can even offer, then He call us to proclaim the truth to all nations, and like the yeast through the 3 measures of dough (Luke 13:21), His kingdom will permeate the whole loaf.

I understand to some this sounds silly, and how can anyone that looks around at this world see Jesus rule ever increasing? I humbly submit that the evil in the world is not new, it has always been there, it's just there is more communication now and we can see more of it, or more is "brought to light" if you will, but it was always there only more hidden. Second point is that I do not see how anyone can look at the human condition, as far as food production capabilities, medical advancement, water relocation techniques, clothing production, the real life survival necessities we are blessed with now, and come to the conclusion it's not better, yes it seems our overall US western society has been taking a nose dive since the 60's, but I truly believe that the true results of that thinking are being exposed for what they are in truth.

I know that does very little to change most minds, and I honestly understand having seen the world just like that most my life, but every since He opened my eyes to these things I've shared, He has ignited a fire inside of my like never before, I want to serve my purpose, the purpose for which I was created, the purpose for which we were all created, to love out God above all, and love each other the same way, ALL to His glory, the Glory of the Name above all names, "Jesus"!!!!

LOL, that was really just going to be an "I agree OneFaith", man I can get going sometimes.

Good read but the citation is wrong, i believe it should be 1 Cor 15.

 

[Noose]

This debate will go on until the end of age. Non is right and no position is correct because the general views about resurrection/rapture/Christ's coming have all deviated from truth. But most importantly is the meaning of the name/title Christ.

The traditional view of Christ is that it means the anointed one; this is a correct but a very shallow view. Christ simply means the authority of God on Earth. The true believers or the church have now taken that role - they judge and reign but still, there is going to be a literal 1000 years.
There's no way to interpret these verses without understanding Daniel's timeline.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Job 14: 12, "So man lies down and does not rise UNTIL THE HEAVENS ARE NO MORE. They will not awake nor be roused from their sleep."

Rev 11: 18, "...and the TIME OF THE DEAD, that they should be JUDGED, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, SMALL AND GREAT, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."

Where do we find the same language of these 2 verses in the Bible?

Rev 20: 11-12, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the EARTH AND THE HEAVEN FLED AWAY and there was found no place for them. And I saw the DEAD, SMALL AND GREAT, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the DEAD were JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

The Great White Throne Judgment happens AFTER the 1,000 years of Revelation 20. This makes all forms of premillennialism false. It doesn't matter if you are pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, they are all forms of premillennialism and cannot be true according to the above Scriptures.

Premillennialism has people being resurrected while there is still a heavens to populate a supposed 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. This directly contradicts Job 14: 12.

Rev 11: 18 is the seventh trumpet. All premillennialists believe this event happens BEFORE the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Not possible according to this verse since it is the "time of the dead that they should be judged" and we see that this happens AFTER the 1,000 years in Rev 20.

It doesn't matter, because you don't understand what you are reading! The reference to "And I saw the Dead, small and great" is referring to the dead, i.e. those separated from God from all of history. The great white throne judgment is a judgment of all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. These are those who are referred to in Rev.20:5 who will not come to life until after the thousand years and of whom the second death has power over. And the reason that they are not apart of the first resurrection, is because they will have died in their sins. The dead, is referring to those who have not been reconciled to God and will therefore be separated from Him.

Those who take part in the first resurrection will be resurrected a thousand years prior to the resurrection of the unrighteous dead who come out of Hades (Rev.20:11-15)

Your error is not recognizing the difference between those who take part in the first resurrection, from those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years.

The next event to take place will be the resurrection of the church, with the living being changed and caught up. This is just one phase of the first resurrection, as there will be other phases that will take place leading up to the Lord's return to end the age, such as the great tribulation saints as revealed in Rev.20:4-6.

"Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne."

"The dead" in the scripture above is referring to those in the state of death with God. The church is not judged at the great white throne judgment, but will already have been resurrected over a thousand years earlier and will already be in their immortal and glorified bodies.

You shouldn't be teaching these things, because you don't have all the relevant information regarding end-time events.

 

[delirious]

Those who take part in the first resurrection will be resurrected a thousand years prior to the resurrection of the unrighteous dead who come out of Hades (Rev.20:11-15)

You have people being resurrected while there is still a heavens. This contradicts Job 14: 12.

Rev 11: 18 is talking about "the time of the dead for them to be judged". The dead obviously includes righteous and unrighteous people. The rest of verse 18 makes that clear. It is physically dead not spiritually dead. Once again, the verse makes that clear.

You are trying to limit Rev 11: 18 to only the righteous. You are ignoring what the verse says.

The "first resurrection" is spiritual. It can only be spiritual. People who are saved and die during this age "live on" with Christ. That is the first resurrection. The unsaved don't live on and that is why the rest of the dead don't live until the 1,000 years are over. The 1,000 years is symbolic for our current age. Both of these groups, the righteous and unrighteous, have died physically. They will all be resurrected physically at the Great White Throne. This is what Rev 11: 18 is telling you.

"Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne."
"The dead" in the scripture above is referring to those in the state of death with God.

You have decided in your mind that the Great White Throne is only for the "spiritually dead". You have no justification for that assumption. You didn't get that from Scripture. You got that from dispensationalism.

Both Job 14: 12 and Rev 11: 18 make it clear that the Great White Throne judgment is for all who have physically died. This is the "second resurrection" of all mankind, both just and unjust people.

Job 14: 12 says man does not rise "until the heavens are no more". He is obviously talking about a physical resurrection. Rev 20: 11-12 tells you the "heavens fled away" and we see the dead physically resurrected standing before God. So it is obviously not "spiritually dead" as you claim. It is the "second resurrection" which all people, both just and unjust, will experience physically.

How do you justify having people resurrected before your millennial reign when Job 14: 12 says explicitly people will not be resurrected while there is still a heavens?