2 verses that refute all forms of Premillennialism
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Job 14: 12 and Rev 11: 18 I did not "allegorize". I actually read them literally. You still haven't answered either one of them.
Those verses prove a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible and refute all forms of premillennialism.
Do you have a Scriptural argument to refute those 2 verses I provided? If not, why are you still believing in false doctrine?
The reason for my original post was to challenge my fellow brothers in Christ, who hold to what I believe to be a false doctrine in premillennialism, to see that Scripture does not support that eschatology.
Those verses prove a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible and refute all forms of premillennialism.
Do you have a Scriptural argument to refute those 2 verses I provided? If not, why are you still believing in false doctrine?
The reason for my original post was to challenge my fellow brothers in Christ, who hold to what I believe to be a false doctrine in premillennialism, to see that Scripture does not support that eschatology.
I did answer. I don't see any problem harmonizing those 2 verses to a millennial Kingdom.
YOU did not answer WHO gave YOU authority to allegorize Scripture? And WHO told you that Jesus sitting on King David's Throne was an allegory?
Did you invent that in your own mind, or did someone tell you that?
YOU did not answer WHO gave YOU authority to allegorize Scripture? And WHO told you that Jesus sitting on King David's Throne was an allegory?
Did you invent that in your own mind, or did someone tell you that?
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The first batch is those raised immortal, judged and living eternally at the return of Christ. Matt. 8:22 is just a reference to the dead of Rev. 11. Job 14:12 waxes poetic and it says something different than what you think.
The second batch:
Rev. 20:5 "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection."
Rev. 20:12, 13 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done."
The second batch:
Rev. 20:5 "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection."
Rev. 20:12, 13 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done."
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How does this refute Job 14: 12 and Rev 11: 18 that I presented?
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No, you didn't answer my 2 verses. If you did, could you recopy and paste it, because I don't see it anywhere.
David was king over Israel, right? What did it say at the top of Jesus' cross? King of the Jews. Jesus has been sitting on "David's Throne" since His first coming. You think the kingdom is literal over physical Jews in the middle east but Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world. It is a spiritual kingdom and He rules over true Israel, the Church. We can agree to disagree.
You still haven't answered my 2 verses that disprove your millennial kingdom so stop saying you have when you didn't. That's called lying. I don't mean to sound rude, so I apologize for that, but that is what you are doing. I'm about the truth.
I don't elevate theological idols above Scripture like you are doing. That's idolatry. I'm not claiming to be perfect because I'm not. But when you are confronted with something that refutes your doctrine you should have a defense for it or you should abandon it.
What is your defense to those 2 verses I provided?
David was king over Israel, right? What did it say at the top of Jesus' cross? King of the Jews. Jesus has been sitting on "David's Throne" since His first coming. You think the kingdom is literal over physical Jews in the middle east but Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world. It is a spiritual kingdom and He rules over true Israel, the Church. We can agree to disagree.
You still haven't answered my 2 verses that disprove your millennial kingdom so stop saying you have when you didn't. That's called lying. I don't mean to sound rude, so I apologize for that, but that is what you are doing. I'm about the truth.
I don't elevate theological idols above Scripture like you are doing. That's idolatry. I'm not claiming to be perfect because I'm not. But when you are confronted with something that refutes your doctrine you should have a defense for it or you should abandon it.
What is your defense to those 2 verses I provided?
The question is who does have authority?
Revelation 21:1-2 King James Version (KJV)And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Its the end of time no need for the two time keepers set in the heaven on the fourth day . It will be like before he turned on the switch of temporal light, during the first three days.
Revelation 21:22-23 King James Version (KJV)22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city (as the bride of Christ the church ) had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
The things seen the temporal (thrones) point to the eternal the Holy Place of God not seen. His bride the temple. It would seem to be a law not subject to change as long as we live in these bodies of death or corruption. The whole creation is corrupted all of the rudiments of this world that make up DNA.
What we are is not what we will be. When we do receive the promise of our new incorruptible bodies they will be neither male nor female Jew nor gentile as the bride of Christ.
Many things I believe take away the idea the kingdom of God will be here with those who are still in the corruptible bodies .
Like the some in the new bodies, the former things of here will never be remembered or ever come to mind. How would they present the gospel if the memories of here are gone? How would a person tell the new creation from the old flesh and blood? How could they converse with one another one not having a memory of earth?
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that "flesh and blood" cannot "inherit the kingdom of God"; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption
David named of God means beloved of God. David is typified as one of the many that describe the beloved of God, who represents the Son of God as eternal who has no beginning of days without mother or father or end of Spirit life.
Just as the earthly Jerusalem was used up until the reformation as a parable for the time then present, used to represent the heavenly unseen as the new Jerusalem (ZION) , the bride of Christ made up of Old testament saints in the same way as saints on this side of the first century reformation .
Christ is reigning on Earth .Looking for another outward demonstration of a fleshly Jesus? When we are told he will not appear in the flesh fore ever more .( 2 Corinthians 5:16)
I would ask. What for? To feast ones eyes on flesh?. How could that profit? Jesus in John 6 says it does not and many of his disciples walked away in unbelief (no faith. not a little...……... none)
Is not one demonstration of the work of the Spirit not enough?
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Revelation 21:1-2 King James Version (KJV)And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Its the end of time no need for the two time keepers set in the heaven on the fourth day . It will be like before he turned on the switch of temporal light, during the first three days.
Revelation 21:22-23 King James Version (KJV)22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city (as the bride of Christ the church ) had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
The things seen the temporal (thrones) point to the eternal the Holy Place of God not seen. His bride the temple. It would seem to be a law not subject to change as long as we live in these bodies of death or corruption. The whole creation is corrupted all of the rudiments of this world that make up DNA.
What we are is not what we will be. When we do receive the promise of our new incorruptible bodies they will be neither male nor female Jew nor gentile as the bride of Christ.
Many things I believe take away the idea the kingdom of God will be here with those who are still in the corruptible bodies .
Like the some in the new bodies, the former things of here will never be remembered or ever come to mind. How would they present the gospel if the memories of here are gone? How would a person tell the new creation from the old flesh and blood? How could they converse with one another one not having a memory of earth?
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that "flesh and blood" cannot "inherit the kingdom of God"; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption
David named of God means beloved of God. David is typified as one of the many that describe the beloved of God, who represents the Son of God as eternal who has no beginning of days without mother or father or end of Spirit life.
Just as the earthly Jerusalem was used up until the reformation as a parable for the time then present, used to represent the heavenly unseen as the new Jerusalem (ZION) , the bride of Christ made up of Old testament saints in the same way as saints on this side of the first century reformation .
Christ is reigning on Earth .Looking for another outward demonstration of a fleshly Jesus? When we are told he will not appear in the flesh fore ever more .( 2 Corinthians 5:16)
I would ask. What for? To feast ones eyes on flesh?. How could that profit? Jesus in John 6 says it does not and many of his disciples walked away in unbelief (no faith. not a little...……... none)
Is not one demonstration of the work of the Spirit not enough?
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Yes ma'am, and I read that He will reign until all enemies are put under His feet, I know it's a lot but I just want to share 1 Cor 1:12-28 Special attention to verse 25 on,
12Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
He is King now, and His kingdom will know no end, and conquers all, right? It will like the mustard seed grow (Mat 13:31), and all nations will stream up to His house (Is 2:2), and the gates of hell will not prevail against it (Mat 16:18). I believe His word holds the very same power today it has always held, His truth just as true. He has blessed any of us reborn of the Spirit with reconciliation to Himself, as we were created to be, giving us a peace and wholeness the flesh nor world can even offer, then He call us to proclaim the truth to all nations, and like the yeast through the 3 measures of dough (Luke 13:21), His kingdom will permeate the whole loaf.
I understand to some this sounds silly, and how can anyone that looks around at this world see Jesus rule ever increasing? I humbly submit that the evil in the world is not new, it has always been there, it's just there is more communication now and we can see more of it, or more is "brought to light" if you will, but it was always there only more hidden. Second point is that I do not see how anyone can look at the human condition, as far as food production capabilities, medical advancement, water relocation techniques, clothing production, the real life survival necessities we are blessed with now, and come to the conclusion it's not better, yes it seems our overall US western society has been taking a nose dive since the 60's, but I truly believe that the true results of that thinking are being exposed for what they are in truth.
I know that does very little to change most minds, and I honestly understand having seen the world just like that most my life, but every since He opened my eyes to these things I've shared, He has ignited a fire inside of my like never before, I want to serve my purpose, the purpose for which I was created, the purpose for which we were all created, to love out God above all, and love each other the same way, ALL to His glory, the Glory of the Name above all names, "Jesus"!!!!
LOL, that was really just going to be an "I agree OneFaith", man I can get going sometimes.
12Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
He is King now, and His kingdom will know no end, and conquers all, right? It will like the mustard seed grow (Mat 13:31), and all nations will stream up to His house (Is 2:2), and the gates of hell will not prevail against it (Mat 16:18). I believe His word holds the very same power today it has always held, His truth just as true. He has blessed any of us reborn of the Spirit with reconciliation to Himself, as we were created to be, giving us a peace and wholeness the flesh nor world can even offer, then He call us to proclaim the truth to all nations, and like the yeast through the 3 measures of dough (Luke 13:21), His kingdom will permeate the whole loaf.
I understand to some this sounds silly, and how can anyone that looks around at this world see Jesus rule ever increasing? I humbly submit that the evil in the world is not new, it has always been there, it's just there is more communication now and we can see more of it, or more is "brought to light" if you will, but it was always there only more hidden. Second point is that I do not see how anyone can look at the human condition, as far as food production capabilities, medical advancement, water relocation techniques, clothing production, the real life survival necessities we are blessed with now, and come to the conclusion it's not better, yes it seems our overall US western society has been taking a nose dive since the 60's, but I truly believe that the true results of that thinking are being exposed for what they are in truth.
I know that does very little to change most minds, and I honestly understand having seen the world just like that most my life, but every since He opened my eyes to these things I've shared, He has ignited a fire inside of my like never before, I want to serve my purpose, the purpose for which I was created, the purpose for which we were all created, to love out God above all, and love each other the same way, ALL to His glory, the Glory of the Name above all names, "Jesus"!!!!
LOL, that was really just going to be an "I agree OneFaith", man I can get going sometimes.
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What!!? The cross is David's Throne?
David did not have a Throne in Heaven!
There are dozens of prophecies related to Jesus reigning in Jerusalem, on David's Throne. Here is just one:
Jeremiah 23:5-6
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness IN THE LAND "In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, 'The LORD our righteousness.'
Job says the dead are dead until the final judgement. How do you spin that to mean there is no 1000 yr reign?
I did not ask for your interpretation of what Gabriel told Mary. I asked WHO, or WHERE you got that interpretation from? He said Jesus would reign on David's Throne. Who are you to interpret that to mean ANYTHING other than what it says?
David did not have a Throne in Heaven!
There are dozens of prophecies related to Jesus reigning in Jerusalem, on David's Throne. Here is just one:
Jeremiah 23:5-6
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness IN THE LAND "In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, 'The LORD our righteousness.'
Job says the dead are dead until the final judgement. How do you spin that to mean there is no 1000 yr reign?
I did not ask for your interpretation of what Gabriel told Mary. I asked WHO, or WHERE you got that interpretation from? He said Jesus would reign on David's Throne. Who are you to interpret that to mean ANYTHING other than what it says?
What people are saying is that you may be taking something literally which is meant to be hyperbole or allegory.
This is the exact same thing your camp accuses dispensationalists of doing in other passages.
Maybe we could all just get worked up a bit less?
We don't need to accuse each other of atrocities when each of us, with a good conscience, interprets a passage differently.
I know... I have crazy ideas.
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You can't say Job 14: 12 "waxes poetic" and means "something different than what you think". That is a non-answer. The verse is very clear in what it means. If you have a different interpretation I would love to hear it.
Like most premillennialists you believe the "first batch" is ONLY the righteous being resurrected at the return of Christ. You believe the rest of the dead will be raised after the 1,000 years and judged at the Great White Throne judgment.
There is a problem with that though. Rev 11: 18 directly contradicts that and proves it to be impossible. Let me quote Rev 11: 18 again:
Rev 11; 18, "...And the TIME OF THE DEAD that they should be JUDGED, and that you should reward Your servants the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."
The first part of the verse above states specifically that the dead are being judged. The rest of the verse makes it clear that it is both righteous and unrighteous people. The dead is obviously composed of both righteous and unrighteous people and really shouldn't need to be explained.
You are trying to claim that it is only righteous people that are raised at the seventh trumpet but the verse makes it clear it is everybody. If it is everybody that can only be the Great White Throne judgment which happens after the 1,000 years (symbolic of the church age). Therefore there is no 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.
I'm looking forward to your interpretation of Job 14: 12 please, as well as your rebuttal to my response about your interpretation of Rev 11: 18. Thank you.
Like most premillennialists you believe the "first batch" is ONLY the righteous being resurrected at the return of Christ. You believe the rest of the dead will be raised after the 1,000 years and judged at the Great White Throne judgment.
There is a problem with that though. Rev 11: 18 directly contradicts that and proves it to be impossible. Let me quote Rev 11: 18 again:
Rev 11; 18, "...And the TIME OF THE DEAD that they should be JUDGED, and that you should reward Your servants the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."
The first part of the verse above states specifically that the dead are being judged. The rest of the verse makes it clear that it is both righteous and unrighteous people. The dead is obviously composed of both righteous and unrighteous people and really shouldn't need to be explained.
You are trying to claim that it is only righteous people that are raised at the seventh trumpet but the verse makes it clear it is everybody. If it is everybody that can only be the Great White Throne judgment which happens after the 1,000 years (symbolic of the church age). Therefore there is no 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.
I'm looking forward to your interpretation of Job 14: 12 please, as well as your rebuttal to my response about your interpretation of Rev 11: 18. Thank you.
Once again, this is a failure to see the difference between physical Israel and spiritual Israel. This passage is about spiritual Israel, the Church. I know you don't see it that way. That's fine. We can disagree.
There is a 1,000 year reign. It is the church age. The number 1,000 is symbolic. It is the time from the first coming of Christ to right before the second coming of Christ (there is a little season of Satan right before the return in Rev 20:7).
Job 14: 12 and Rev 11: 18 prove that the 1,000 years of Rev. 20 is symbolic for the church age. It cannot be a literal kingdom on earth in Jerusalem because those 2 verse I provided refute that possibility. When Christ returns this age is over. Wicked in lake of fire. Righteous into the new heavens and earth. Easy peasy.
There is a 1,000 year reign. It is the church age. The number 1,000 is symbolic. It is the time from the first coming of Christ to right before the second coming of Christ (there is a little season of Satan right before the return in Rev 20:7).
Job 14: 12 and Rev 11: 18 prove that the 1,000 years of Rev. 20 is symbolic for the church age. It cannot be a literal kingdom on earth in Jerusalem because those 2 verse I provided refute that possibility. When Christ returns this age is over. Wicked in lake of fire. Righteous into the new heavens and earth. Easy peasy.
Read the passage and tell me its hyperbole. It's obvious what it means. It's even more obvious when you combine Job 14: 12 with what Rev 20: 11 says. The timing is perfect and unmistakable. Same thing with Revelation 11: 18 and Rev 20: 11-12. The only possible interpretation is that there is no 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth and the 1,000 years of Revelation 20 is symbolic.
I started this thread for two reasons. Number one, and unlike many Christians sadly, I like to test my conclusions. I don't run to my favorite teachers and pat each other on the back about how great our position is.
I throw my position to the wolves (opposing theological views). I DARE them to tear it apart. I do this over and over and over. I've had my position destroyed before. I am initially saddened when it happens but then I praise God for giving me the truth and I go back to the drawing board. If my opponents can't harm my position after many, many attempts, I know I have the truth and have interpreted Scripture correctly.
I'm not talking about ambiguous passages that have multiple possible interpretations. I don't bash people over that. There are plenty of passages like that in the Bible as I am sure you are well aware of. I said specifically that he probably didn't realize the implications of what he was saying.
Nevertheless, the 2 verses I provided are very clear verses. This is probably why my opponents are having difficulty responding to them. Anyways, I wanted to test them and if I offend anyone that is definitely not my intention. I am passionate for God's Word like many people on here.
I started this thread for two reasons. Number one, and unlike many Christians sadly, I like to test my conclusions. I don't run to my favorite teachers and pat each other on the back about how great our position is.
I throw my position to the wolves (opposing theological views). I DARE them to tear it apart. I do this over and over and over. I've had my position destroyed before. I am initially saddened when it happens but then I praise God for giving me the truth and I go back to the drawing board. If my opponents can't harm my position after many, many attempts, I know I have the truth and have interpreted Scripture correctly.
I'm not talking about ambiguous passages that have multiple possible interpretations. I don't bash people over that. There are plenty of passages like that in the Bible as I am sure you are well aware of. I said specifically that he probably didn't realize the implications of what he was saying.
Nevertheless, the 2 verses I provided are very clear verses. This is probably why my opponents are having difficulty responding to them. Anyways, I wanted to test them and if I offend anyone that is definitely not my intention. I am passionate for God's Word like many people on here.
