The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

[YDo]

Hello YDo,
While I also do not believe that the Lords people will experience the Lords wrath, I do, however, believe the whole world is going to experience tribulation before the Lords wrath is poured out upon the worshipers of the beast.
Can you tell me what you think the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth means to you?

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Sure.
My take on it is that the beast is a government power not an individual.
Namely because of its mark and how it is described to be used. For buying and selling. Which pertains to commerce and economy. Which are things governments control as pertains to their sovereign territory.

I think the trial and hour of temptation pertains to the news that will arrive informing of that one world government. Which is already set in place but is not actually in power per se. The temptation part I think is that moment when that news arrives and the individual has to decide if they'll fall in step or rebel against that one order that now rules the world.

 

[louis]

Sure.
My take on it is that the beast is a government power not an individual.
Namely because of its mark and how it is described to be used. For buying and selling. Which pertains to commerce and economy. Which are things governments control as pertains to their sovereign territory.

I agree, the beast is a government power. I also believe, however, that the beasts mouth who speaks great things in Revelation 13 and in Daniel 7 is an individual, aka the Antichrist.

I think the trial and hour of temptation pertains to the news that will arrive informing of that one world government. Which is already set in place but is not actually in power per se. The temptation part I think is that moment when that news arrives and the individual has to decide if they'll fall in step or rebel against that one order that now rules the world.

We are on the same page where the hour of temptation pertains to the beasts one world government.
From this point, however, our perspectives differ somewhat as to what the temptation represents.

According to the angel in Revelation 17:8 the beast who was, and is not, will ascend from the bottomless pit.
This is the same beast who ascends from the pit and makes war with the two witnesses in Revelation 11 at the conclusion of their 42 months of testifying in Jerusalem.
From here we have another similar description where the beast's mouth makes war with the saints and overcomes them in Revelation 13.

Here's where it gets a little complicated: Realizing the beast who rises from the sea in Revelation 13 is another description for the beast who shall arise from the bottomless pit in Revelation 9; then the events prior to the beast rising from the bottomless pit, seen in Revelation 8 where one third of earth's environment is destroyed, indicates very bad tribulation for many of earths inhabitants prior to the beasts rising.
Upon rising from the sea, however, the whole faithless world will be in love with the beasts new system (Revelation 13:4 & 8).
This new system of the beast that will have the whole faithless world saying "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with the beast?", meaning: "What other government can provide such a great lifestyle as that of the beasts?" is what I recognize representing the hour of temptation. The beasts system will be so great, it will even wear out and overcome the saints (Daniel 7:25 & Revelation 13:7).

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

[YDo]

I agree, the beast is a government power. I also believe, however, that the beasts mouth who speaks great things in Revelation 13 and in Daniel 7 is an individual, aka the Antichrist.

We are on the same page where the hour of temptation pertains to the beasts one world government.
From this point, however, our perspectives differ somewhat as to what the temptation represents.

According to the angel in Revelation 17:8 the beast who was, and is not, will ascend from the bottomless pit.
This is the same beast who ascends from the pit and makes war with the two witnesses in Revelation 11 at the conclusion of their 42 months of testifying in Jerusalem.
From here we have another similar description where the beast's mouth makes war with the saints and overcomes them in Revelation 13.

Here's where it gets a little complicated: Realizing the beast who rises from the sea in Revelation 13 is another description for the beast who shall arise from the bottomless pit in Revelation 9; then the events prior to the beast rising from the bottomless pit, seen in Revelation 8 where one third of earth's environment is destroyed, indicates very bad tribulation for many of earths inhabitants prior to the beasts rising.
Upon rising from the sea, however, the whole faithless world will be in love with the beasts new system (Revelation 13:4 & 8).
This new system of the beast that will have the whole faithless world saying "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with the beast?", meaning: "What other government can provide such a great lifestyle as that of the beasts?" is what I recognize representing the hour of temptation. The beasts system will be so great, it will even wear out and overcome the saints (Daniel 7:25 & Revelation 13:7).

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The mouthpiece, or leader, of the beast nation would be the Antichrist. That makes sense. If there was a world government there would be a world leader overseeing that government.
And then there is the man of sin.

 

[louis]

The mouthpiece, or leader, of the beast nation would be the Antichrist. That makes sense. If there was a world government there would be a world leader overseeing that government.
And then there is the man of sin.

With God being love (1 John 4:8 & 16); the man of sin in 2 Thess 2:4 who sees himself as god; sees himself as the peoples love (their god); and rightly so as the whole world will love him (Revelation 13:8).
The man of sin who sees himself as god is another description for the beasts mouth, aka the Antichrist in 1 John and 2 John.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[YDo]

With God being love (1 John 4:8 & 16); the man of sin in 2 Thess 2:4 who sees himself as god; sees himself as the peoples love (their god); and rightly so as the whole world will love him (Revelation 13:8).
The man of sin who sees himself as god is another description for the beasts mouth, aka the Antichrist in 1 John and 2 John.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now we can move the question in the first post forward. Is there any indication this is underway in this age or time?

 

[louis]

Now we can move the question in the first post forward. Is there any indication this is underway in this age or time?

We still haven't arrived at the point where 1/3 of all earth's environment has been destroyed which precedes the beast rising from the bottomless pit/sea.
We are, however, continually seeing more environmental destruction throughout the world.

 

[YDo]

We still haven't arrived at the point where 1/3 of all earth's environment has been destroyed which precedes the beast rising from the bottomless pit/sea.
We are, however, continually seeing more environmental destruction throughout the world.

What passage says that ? About the 1/3rd of the environment?

 

[louis]

What passage says that ? About the 1/3rd of the environment?

Revelation 8 shows 1/3 of all of the earth's environmental resources destroyed prior to the opening of the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:2.

 

[YDo]

Revelation 8 shows 1/3 of all of the earth's environmental resources destroyed prior to the opening of the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:2.

OK, thanks.
I was thinking you were saying 1/3rd of the environment was destroyed already and this was part of those steps that ushered in the tribulation. That's why I asked because not that long ago there were articles reporting 1/3rd of the environment has been destroyed by us already.
The angels in Revelation 8 bring the destruction. That's where I had that disconnect. Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[louis]

Here's another interesting fact YDo; according to Revelation 9:20 all the plagues and genocides in Revelation 8 & 9 are attributed to the love man has for the work from his hands. To me this means the pollution in Revelation 8 is caused by man through industry.

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

 

[louis]

OK, thanks.
I was thinking you were saying 1/3rd of the environment was destroyed already and this was part of those steps that ushered in the tribulation. That's why I asked because not that long ago there were articles reporting 1/3rd of the environment has been destroyed by us already.
The angels in Revelation 8 bring the destruction. That's where I had that disconnect. Thank you for clearing that up.

Not already destroyed, but if you look at the world around you, tribulation is increasing as the environment continues to degrade.

 

[iamsoandso]

He is saying rev was written before ad 70.
Critical factor to historicists.
I am glad i do not hinge on those type issues.
Israel became a nation in around 1947.
Ever wonder why that is a factor ignored?

In #628 I said that i would have argued over not being able to use Josephus why do you think I said it if I am any type futurist?

 

[iamsoandso]

The wrath was part of the tribulation - the Christians back then followed John's admonishment "flee the wrath to come"

lol, that's an A9D position...

 

[Locutus]

lol, that's an A9D position...

I tend to think of it more of a 3D position meself .

 

[Locutus]

lol, that's an A9D position...

So, what are yer really thinking bro?

 

[iamsoandso]

me tend to think of it more of a 3D position meself .

why would you think the tribulation and the wrath are both from God and the elect are rescued from it the same time ? (Greek to English Jesus said he rescues the Elect from himself)?

 

[Locutus]

why would you think the tribulation and the wrath are both from God and the elect are rescued from it the same time ? (Greek to English Jesus said he rescues the Elect from himself)?

Cos He said that's what He said through Paul:

(1 Th 5:9 KJV) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

(Luke 21:36 KJV) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

(Luke 21:32 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[pottersclay]

Cos He said that's what He said through Paul:

(1 Th 5:9 KJV) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

(Luke 21:36 KJV) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

(Luke 21:32 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Clearly we are on the same page saint. I don't respond to these threads anymore myself but pray the Lord gives me time to explain to the post trib saints on the way up.
So the question remains......are we ready???? Post trib.... pre trib...mid trib....no trib.....Jesus is coming back....are we ready????

 

[Endoscopy]

It amazes me how people keep using Daniel to predict the near future. Twice it states it is closed until the end times. Since there isn't the third temple built on the site of the previous 2 temples the end is not yet. In Israel they have excavated the site of them and are planning to rebuild a new temple. That will take several years after they get permission to build there. Keep in mind that Israel is a secular nation. The religious Jews are in a small minority. I know this because I went there for work several times. The religious Jews have hurdles to pass to rebuild the temple not the least of which is the money. When you see it start to be rebuilt the end will come soon after it is completed.

 

[Endoscopy]

The issue of this thread is only one of the possibilities. I recently watched 2 sequential videos with well known ministers and theologians discussing this issue. There are 3 Biblical versions; pre trib, mid trib, and post trib. Each presented the Biblical reasons for the one they were defending. All agreed they would prefer pre trib to have Christians escaping harm. But that is up to God.