The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

[Locutus]

lol,Like I said back when I was speaking of the Apostolic fathers and their deciples not many see it like that in 2018. They said in several letters in the first 200-300 years "let them.." boast/prove their Apostolic line as could Polycarp from John and Clement of Rome from Peter ect....

I cant see why they would not been biblicaly associated(Barnabas,1Clement,Shepard of Hermas) seeing all three are named in the bible but they are not regarded as such. There must have been the same argument after about 300ad because they mentioned Polycarp,Clement ect. as traceable back to Apostles as if the provable original thinking was getting lost.

This is wot I fink bro - there are no further inspired or prophetic writings necessary after the war of 66-70AD.

Why do I say this?

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

And we can most likely include Paul's testimony:

1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Therefore my contention is that our understanding of the bibles prophetic messages and fulfillment must be limited to the 1st century.

 

[iamsoandso]

This is wot I fink bro - there are no further inspired or prophetic writings necessary after the war of 66-70AD.

Why do I say this?

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

And we can most likely include Paul's testimony:

1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Therefore my contention is that our understanding of the bibles prophetic messages and fulfillment must be limited to the 1st century.

ok me too we should forget post 619 and Josephus wars and everything after Revelation...

 

[Locutus]

ok me too we should forget post 619 and Josephus wars and everything after Revelation...

What is puzzling is the silence after the war - no further writings by apostles or very close associates - what happened to Luke? I don't really put much stock in the Ante-Nicene "fathers" writings.

I don't think we need to toss out Josephus as he is not part of the inspiration - John's apocalypse probably written pre fall of the temple.

What writings after the war would you include as inspired or prophetic?

 

[iamsoandso]

I don't think we need to toss out Josephus as he is not part of the inspiration - John's apocalypse probably written pre fall of the temple.

What writings after the war would you include as inspired or prophetic?

Ok and I want Irenaeus deal?

 

[Locutus]

Ok and I want Irenaeus deal?

Ok - lol.

What do you have against ol' Irene?

 

[iamsoandso]

I'm going to sleep my friend, good night,sweet dreams...

 

[Locutus]

Night bro.

 

[iamsoandso]

QUOTE="Locutus, post: 3794222, member: 251880"]Ok - lol.

What do you have against ol' Irene?[/QUOTE]

not a thing,,,I would have argued hard if you told me I couldn't use Josephus...

 

[Absolutely]

ok me too we should forget post 619 and Josephus wars and everything after Revelation...

He is saying rev was written before ad 70.
Critical factor to historicists.
I am glad i do not hinge on those type issues.
Israel became a nation in around 1947.
Ever wonder why that is a factor ignored?

 

[Absolutely]

Right, but how is the "man of sin" going to pull off some God imitation - a man may have done so back in a totally theocratic none scientific society back then.

Obama did it.

 

[Absolutely]

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation"


www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

 

[Absolutely]

The Second Persecution, Under Domitian, A.D. 81
The emperor Domitian, who was naturally inclined to cruelty, first slew his brother, and then raised the second persecution against the Christians. In his rage he put to death some of the Roman senators, some through malice; and others to confiscate their estates. He then commanded all the lineage of David be put to death.
Among the numerous martyrs that suffered during this persecution was Simeon, bishop of Jerusalem, who was crucified; and St. John, who was boiled in oil, and afterward banished to Patmos. Flavia, the daughter of a Roman senator, was likewise banished to Pontus; and a law was made, "That no Christian, once brought before the tribunal, should be exempted from punishment without renouncing his religion."
https://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/fox102.htm

 

[louis]

You have to put scriptures together with scriptures to see what is being said.
God is love (1 John 4:8 & 16).
When the Antichrist shews himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4), this means that he sees himself as the peoples love.
And rightly so, as he will be the peoples love. The whole faithless world is going to be in love with the Beast's and its mouth's (the Antichrist's) system (Revelation 13:4).
His new system will be so much loved, it will even be sitting in the hearts of the faithful (2 Thessalonians 2:4); where it ought not be standing, in the holy place (Mark 13:14), the Lords temple, within His people's hearts (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16), and thereby overcoming the saints (Revelation 13:7), and wearing them out (Daniel 7:25).


1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Absolutely]

You have to put scriptures together with scriptures to see what is being said.
God is love (1 John 4:8 & 16).
When the Antichrist shews himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4), this means that he sees himself as the peoples love.
And rightly so, as he will be the peoples love. The whole faithless world is going to be in love with the Beast's and its mouth's (the Antichrist's) system (Revelation 13:4).
His new system will be so much loved, it will even be sitting in the hearts of the faithful (2 Thessalonians 2:4); where it ought not be standing, in the holy place (Mark 13:14), the Lords temple, within His people's hearts (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16), and thereby overcoming the saints (Revelation 13:7), and wearing them out (Daniel 7:25).


1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The ac will be drunk on his own narcissism
Those that think mature saints will be decieved are wrong.
We will recognize him right away.

 

[louis]

.....and drunk on his own narcissism

Narcissism, is one of the Antichrist's criteria, as he constantly magnifies himself (Daniel 8:11 & 25; 11:36). He's such a narcissist that he is going to want to see his mark, name, or number corresponding to his name on everyone's hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-17).

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

[Absolutely]

A good starting place for the op author would be getting born again.
Once the king is entrhoned in one's heart, it is easy to ascribe the proper worship and kingship.

And the bride/groom component.
I appear to be alone in that ingredient.
The next event on the horizon and most are oblivious

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And the bride/groom component.
I appear to be alone in that ingredient.
The next event on the horizon and most are oblivious

I agree that the "bride/groom component" (as you put it) is indeed very important (and important for aid in understanding the issue under discussion in this thread), I just see some of the aspects DIFFERENTLY than you do, in that, I see the Olivet Discourse and the gospel accounts to be covering "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [i.e. the earthly MK] and NOT "the MARRIAGE" itself.

The "bride/wife [singular]" is not mentioned in the Olivet Discourse/gospels, because it is "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" being covered there (with its PLURAL "virgins" and its PLURAL "guests" etc), and not "the MARRIAGE" itself being covered.

At that point in the chronology, Jesus will be "returning [/coming]" as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" (not TO MARRY PLURAL [10 nor 5] "virgins"). This is the distinction between Rev19:9 (re: "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [the earthly MK]) and Rev19:7 (AORIST; re: "the MARRIAGE" itself [2Cor11:2], already taken place in Heaven by that point in the chronology [Rev19], and now He is heading down to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" the MK on the earth, WITH [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION'/UNIONed with] His "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]," where thereafter the settings/contexts of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [passages] take up the next scene in the chronology [Matt22:9-14 / Matt25:10 / Lk12:36-37,38,40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [see also Matt8:11 ["G347"] and parallel])

 

[YDo]

What would be the purpose of being raptured after the fallen people of the world go through Hell? Why would we Christian people deserve to suffer that?

 

[louis]

What would be the purpose of being raptured after the fallen people of the world go through Hell? Why would we Christian people deserve to suffer that?

Hello YDo,
While I also do not believe that the Lords people will experience the Lords wrath, I do, however, believe the whole world is going to experience tribulation before the Lords wrath is poured out upon the worshipers of the beast.
Can you tell me what you think the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth means to you?

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Locutus]

The wrath was part of the tribulation - the Christians back then followed John's admonishment "flee the wrath to come"