The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation
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Hello TabinRivCa,
The "hour of trial" is another designation referring to the time of God's wrath, also known as "the Day of the Lord" and the tribulation period.
Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.
In the letter to the church in Philadelphia, the Lord promises all believers who will have kept His word to endure patiently, that He will keep them out of that hour of trial, the time of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord, which is going to come upon all who dwell upon the whole world. That time of wrath will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Since the first seal initiates God's wrath, then the promise is to remove prior to that first seal being opened. This is supported by the fact that, after the end of chapter 3, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" no longer appears in the narrative. After the church has been removed in Rev.4:1-2, the great tribulation saints are who is being referred to, which are those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17.
The "hour of trial" is another designation referring to the time of God's wrath, also known as "the Day of the Lord" and the tribulation period.
Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.
In the letter to the church in Philadelphia, the Lord promises all believers who will have kept His word to endure patiently, that He will keep them out of that hour of trial, the time of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord, which is going to come upon all who dwell upon the whole world. That time of wrath will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Since the first seal initiates God's wrath, then the promise is to remove prior to that first seal being opened. This is supported by the fact that, after the end of chapter 3, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" no longer appears in the narrative. After the church has been removed in Rev.4:1-2, the great tribulation saints are who is being referred to, which are those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17.
Ok so you are declaring that "the first seal initiates God's wrath" and you declare that "God's wrath is also known as "the Day of the Lord" and the tribulation period".
Let's see if the Word of God agrees with your assumption:
Revelation 6:12-17 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; (13) and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. (14) And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?
Revelation 6:12-17 proves that it is not until the 6th seal is opened by Jesus that that the worldly are declaring "the great day of their wrath is come"!
The 6th seal causes a great earthquake, the sun becomes black, the moon becomes as blood, the stars fall to the earth, the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up, every mountain and island were moved out of their places, and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.
These same events are described as happening AFTER the tribulation in these three passages of the Olivet discourse:
Matthew 24:29-31 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luke 21:25-28 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; (26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.
Let's see if the Word of God agrees with your assumption:
Revelation 6:12-17 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; (13) and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. (14) And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?
Revelation 6:12-17 proves that it is not until the 6th seal is opened by Jesus that that the worldly are declaring "the great day of their wrath is come"!
The 6th seal causes a great earthquake, the sun becomes black, the moon becomes as blood, the stars fall to the earth, the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up, every mountain and island were moved out of their places, and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.
These same events are described as happening AFTER the tribulation in these three passages of the Olivet discourse:
Matthew 24:29-31 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luke 21:25-28 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; (26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.
There's a 'TBN Classic' show where Jan & Paul Crouch are hosting a debate on the trib. Hal Lindsey took the pre-trib, Stuart McBirney took mid-trib and Doug Clark was left with the post-trib. Even these three learned guys got into a heated dispute and Hal Lindsey almost lost it. It was quite something After taking part in this thread I think I'm going back to the 80's to relive this program to hear their points. I'm going with just 'Be Ready' everyday! Amen.
The trumpet is recorded in the following scripture::
Matthew 24: KJV
29 "¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. {32} Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: {33} So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. {34} Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. {35} Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
Matthew 24: KJV
29 "¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. {32} Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: {33} So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. {34} Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. {35} Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
"the earth was reaped" in Revelation 14:16 means no more people on earth.
Revelation 15 commences in retrospect with details as to why the earth will be reaped of its inhabitants, with the how depicted in Revelation 16.
Revelation 17 then also commences in retrospect with details on how the whore will meet her demise.
Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Revelation 15 commences in retrospect with details as to why the earth will be reaped of its inhabitants, with the how depicted in Revelation 16.
Revelation 17 then also commences in retrospect with details on how the whore will meet her demise.
Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
The mystery of iniquity, is peoples complacence with their carnal nature.
When materially comfortable, the spirit comes in second.
There is a lot more complacency with our carnal inclinations today that there was in most of the past.
When the beast appears, his system will bring about days as in those of Noah, and Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah.
When materially comfortable, the spirit comes in second.
There is a lot more complacency with our carnal inclinations today that there was in most of the past.
When the beast appears, his system will bring about days as in those of Noah, and Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah.
Matthew 24:29-31 is dealing with the rapture/resurrection not the second coming
The 7 seals that Jesus opens are for the tribulation to weed out the tares within His body by the end of the great harvest:
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:36-43 Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field. (37) And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; (38) and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; (39) and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels. (40) As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world. (41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, (42) and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.
This parable of the wheat and tares speaking of angels being sent forth to harvest at the end of the world is further proven in Revelation 14:
Revelation 14:14-20 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped. (17) And another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. (18) And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. (19) And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God. (20) And the winepress was trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
The 6th seal at the end of the tribulation marks the beginning of the year of wrath AFTER the 7 years of tribulation:
Revelation 6:12-17 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; (13) and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. (14) And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?
Revelation 6:12-17 proves that it is not until the 6th seal is opened by Jesus that that the worldly are declaring "the great day of their wrath is come"!
The 6th seal causes a great earthquake, the sun becomes black, the moon becomes as blood, the stars fall to the earth, the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up, every mountain and island were moved out of their places, and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.
These same events are described as happening AFTER the tribulation in these three passages of the Olivet discourse when we examine precept upon precept:
Matthew 24:29-31 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luke 21:25-28 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; (26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.
The second coming is described in Revelation 19 and has no mention of all the events listed above but does directly deal with the judgment through wrath that the wicked feared by pleading that "the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?" in Revelation 6:16-17~ :
Revelation 19:11-21 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself. (13) And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. (15) And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. (16) And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come and be gathered together unto the great supper of God; (18) that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of them that sit thereon, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, and small and great. (19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army. (20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone: (21) and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, even the sword which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
The 7 seals that Jesus opens are for the tribulation to weed out the tares within His body by the end of the great harvest:
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:36-43 Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field. (37) And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; (38) and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; (39) and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels. (40) As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world. (41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, (42) and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.
This parable of the wheat and tares speaking of angels being sent forth to harvest at the end of the world is further proven in Revelation 14:
Revelation 14:14-20 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped. (17) And another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. (18) And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. (19) And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God. (20) And the winepress was trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
The 6th seal at the end of the tribulation marks the beginning of the year of wrath AFTER the 7 years of tribulation:
Revelation 6:12-17 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; (13) and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. (14) And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?
Revelation 6:12-17 proves that it is not until the 6th seal is opened by Jesus that that the worldly are declaring "the great day of their wrath is come"!
The 6th seal causes a great earthquake, the sun becomes black, the moon becomes as blood, the stars fall to the earth, the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up, every mountain and island were moved out of their places, and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.
These same events are described as happening AFTER the tribulation in these three passages of the Olivet discourse when we examine precept upon precept:
Matthew 24:29-31 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luke 21:25-28 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; (26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.
The second coming is described in Revelation 19 and has no mention of all the events listed above but does directly deal with the judgment through wrath that the wicked feared by pleading that "the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?" in Revelation 6:16-17~ :
Revelation 19:11-21 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself. (13) And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. (15) And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. (16) And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come and be gathered together unto the great supper of God; (18) that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of them that sit thereon, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, and small and great. (19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army. (20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone: (21) and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, even the sword which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Uh, those are pretrib verses
You made a case for a pretrib rapture.
We agree he returns postrib.
You defy rev 19.....he returns WITH his saints..... No rapture postrib
You defy rev 14
You defy mat 25
You defy the last supper dialog
You defy the 2 escape verses.
You think those and our others are to be swept off the table to be rejected in favor of your single verse in mat that MUST BE REFITTED to promote a belief that is simply pulled from thin air.
You can NOT possibly read all my verses and conclude what you do.
It is erroneous,impossible,and is PROVEN HANDS DOWN to be false
That is WHY the postrib doctrine NEVER,EVER incorporates the heart of heaven......THE BRIDE /GROOM component.
That is WHY postrib rapture doctrine is 90% anti pretrib,the rest is a lifelong 1000 page OT scrambled non issue thesis,or mat 24 rearranged belief system.
Rev 14 read it and ask why you defy 1 thes 4
You made a case for a pretrib rapture.
We agree he returns postrib.
You defy rev 19.....he returns WITH his saints..... No rapture postrib
You defy rev 14
You defy mat 25
You defy the last supper dialog
You defy the 2 escape verses.
You think those and our others are to be swept off the table to be rejected in favor of your single verse in mat that MUST BE REFITTED to promote a belief that is simply pulled from thin air.
You can NOT possibly read all my verses and conclude what you do.
It is erroneous,impossible,and is PROVEN HANDS DOWN to be false
That is WHY the postrib doctrine NEVER,EVER incorporates the heart of heaven......THE BRIDE /GROOM component.
That is WHY postrib rapture doctrine is 90% anti pretrib,the rest is a lifelong 1000 page OT scrambled non issue thesis,or mat 24 rearranged belief system.
Rev 14 read it and ask why you defy 1 thes 4
That is a bride / groom component.
The last supper is a model of the Jewish betrothal.
It was serious and binding
The groom left her,went back to his fathers house and built a house or addition for him and bride . then at the fathers prompting he would go,at night and get her.
The rapture.
They went back to the fathers house
(Heaven).
The last supper is a model of the Jewish betrothal.
It was serious and binding
The groom left her,went back to his fathers house and built a house or addition for him and bride . then at the fathers prompting he would go,at night and get her.
The rapture.
They went back to the fathers house
(Heaven).
E
As I read that post. I would see rev 14 as God destroying all the strentgth or wine the
Jesus did not tell that man, Today I will ressurect you. You will recieve your glorified body, I will give you the bema seat judgment and try you rworks by fire to see if you get Gods silver or precious stone, or wood hay and straw. And give you the crowns of life and other things you may or may not recieve.
He said today you will be with me.. Huge different, The people in rev had already went through those things, meaning the ressurection had already occured.
So no, it is not my willingness to twist scripture. It is my unwillingness to make the scripture say something it does not say to fit my own beliefs.
And with that I bid you good day When you can talk to people whith love and like an adult. I will return and maybe give you some of myself. But I have refused to talk to know it alls who do nothing but attack and tear people down. So you can join y9ur brothers who came before and acted like you. Good luck trying to convince people who disagree with you. Your attitude alone will push people away.. Your wasint your time here.
Jesus did not tell that man, Today I will ressurect you. You will recieve your glorified body, I will give you the bema seat judgment and try you rworks by fire to see if you get Gods silver or precious stone, or wood hay and straw. And give you the crowns of life and other things you may or may not recieve.
He said today you will be with me.. Huge different, The people in rev had already went through those things, meaning the ressurection had already occured.
So no, it is not my willingness to twist scripture. It is my unwillingness to make the scripture say something it does not say to fit my own beliefs.
And with that I bid you good day When you can talk to people whith love and like an adult. I will return and maybe give you some of myself. But I have refused to talk to know it alls who do nothing but attack and tear people down. So you can join y9ur brothers who came before and acted like you. Good luck trying to convince people who disagree with you. Your attitude alone will push people away.. Your wasint your time here.
lol, i suppose there's some arguing post and others pre and so if someone says something out of rhythm they just have to be on the opposing side. In all of this though there are also some who are just following along with the thread and observing the two as they debate "lukewarm' so to speak.
I suppose it's is a little odd to you that none will address the 10 virgins(you keep asking,lol) but it all depends on who it is they were told to go to and buy("go to those who sell and buy") and why is if they go to them to buy and Rev.18:13 says Babylon is who sold the oil. Now if the 5 do go to those who sell and buy they would then need to buy and sell with the mark because none could buy and sell without it(Rev.13:17). But now is this "pre or post", how is it that the 5 virgins go to the wedding before the beast,his mark and Babylon who sells the oil are there and they are there selling the oil when they go to the wedding?
Not that I am answering for the post trib. position I would rather them do so themselves my point in the post you quoted is that Rev. 5:... explains that none could loose the seals or look on it then says the Lamb that was slain was found worthy "because he was slain" so is it reasonable to think that Jesus spoke of the contents of the sealed scroll in the four Gospels before he was slain?
Pre-tribbers (such as myself) do not believe the Holy Spirit will not be involved in the tribulation or be present on the earth [but that His role will have changed] any more than we believe that He wasn't present and involved on the earth before Christ was glorified [ not!], according to this verse:
"39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" John 7:39
...instead [of us believing what you've suggested we believe], it is that we believe His role will have changed, for "the Church which is His body" is "SEALED unto the day of redemption"... "until the redemption of 'the purchased possession'..." [that's us], ... that is, "the Church which is His body" is indwelt with His Spirit (and once we are raptured, His role then changes on the earth and His involvement there...)
I do believe it is the Church indwelt/sealed with His Spirit that is referred to where it says (2Th2),
"...until out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..." (and his "be revealed" is at the START of the 7-yr trib, according to the other things I've already mentioned in this track... No time now to cover that in any detail...)
"39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" John 7:39
...instead [of us believing what you've suggested we believe], it is that we believe His role will have changed, for "the Church which is His body" is "SEALED unto the day of redemption"... "until the redemption of 'the purchased possession'..." [that's us], ... that is, "the Church which is His body" is indwelt with His Spirit (and once we are raptured, His role then changes on the earth and His involvement there...)
I do believe it is the Church indwelt/sealed with His Spirit that is referred to where it says (2Th2),
"...until out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..." (and his "be revealed" is at the START of the 7-yr trib, according to the other things I've already mentioned in this track... No time now to cover that in any detail...)